California Court SHUTS DOWN Transgender Pronoun Law

[Lacius]

I find the notion of “you can’t change your chromosomes” to be silly. I am literally XX intersex, I am and have always been closer to biologically female. I was born with both parts (external male, internal female,) so which one am I? Do my female chromosomes determine that I am female or do my external parts determine me as male? What about the rest of my genetics? I definitely developed traits from both, so which one am I? The argument of chromosomes only gets muddier the more one researches the topic and gets past a middle school understanding of biology. I find it sad that transphobes don’t actually appreciate this kind of stuff, the biology and psychology of trans and intersex people is deeply fascinating. To keep this on topic, it’s ridiculous to reduce laws to external parts alone.

Social conservatives are anti-science? Fascinating.

 

[Foxi4]

Social conservatives are anti-science? Fascinating.

There’s nothing anti-science in saying that one cannot change their genes, and using rare cases of physical/genetic abnormality or congenital disease to redefine scientific categories like biological sex is scientific dishonesty. We don’t do it for any other syndrome or disease, and we shouldn’t do it here. I don’t think anyone would argue in earnest that sex isn’t a spectrum, at least not anyone with a basic understanding of the subject - it clearly is since there are more masculine or more feminine men and women, and those differences go well beyond nurture and into the nature category. With that being said, it is a spectrum with two distinctive peaks that correspond to two biological sexes, which is to be expected in a sexually dimorphic species. I never saw the intersex conundrum as “muddled” - the hint is in the name, intersex individuals are somewhere between the sexes, and I consider it unfair to enforce classification as one or the other considering their karyotypes are atypical (47,XXY for instance) or another anomaly has occurred prior to birth (atypical SRY gene crossover leading to XX-male etc.) - they don’t fit the binary classification, and that’s fine. People who suffer from polydactylism also don’t fit the mold, but their existence doesn’t mean that our species doesn’t have 5 digits on each hand. Nature be crazy like that, all sorts of weird stuff can happen. Does it establish the existence of a third sex? No, not really.

 

[Lacius]

There’s nothing anti-science in saying that one cannot change their karyotype, and using rare cases of physical/genetic abnormality or congenital disease to redefine scientific categories like biological sex is scientific dishonesty. We don’t do it for any other syndrome or disease, and we shouldn’t do it here. I don’t think anyone would argue in earnest that sex isn’t a spectrum, at least not anyone with a basic understanding of the subject - it clearly is since there are more masculine or more feminine men and women, and those differences go well beyond nurture and into the nature category. With that being said, it is a spectrum with two distinctive peaks that correspond to two biological sexes, which is to be expected in a sexually dimorphic species. I never saw the intersex conundrum as “muddled” - the hint is in the name, intersex individuals are somewhere between the sexes, and I consider it unfair to enforce classification as one or the other considering their karyotypes are atypical (XXY, for instance) or another anomaly has occurred prior to birth (atypical SRY gene crossover leading to XX-male etc.) - they don’t fit the binary classification, and that’s fine. People who suffer from polydactylism also don’t fit the mold, but their existence doesn’t mean that our species doesn’t have 5 digits on each hand. Nature be crazy like that, all sorts of weird stuff can happen. Does it establish the existence of a third sex? No, not really.

It's anti-scientific to argue gender is the same thing as sex, and it's anti-scientific to argue sex doesn't have more than two options.

 

[Foxi4]

It's anti-scientific to argue gender is the same thing as sex, and it's anti-scientific to argue sex doesn't have more than two options.

You didn’t read what I said. Let me help you.

I don’t think anyone would argue in earnest that sex isn’t a spectrum, at least not anyone with a basic understanding of the subject - it clearly is since there are more masculine or more feminine men and women, and those differences go well beyond nurture and into the nature category. With that being said, it is a spectrum with two distinctive peaks that correspond to two biological sexes, which is to be expected in a sexually dimorphic species.

In the purely biological sense and strictly from a reproductive perspective there are indeed two sexes, male and female, both of which develop different primary and secondary sexual characteristics and produce one of two different types of gametes, eggs or sperm. That is how our species overwhelmingly forms and reproduces, although some anomalies do exist, in the same way as any other genetic anomaly. How close any given individual is to a given peak on the spectrum, by which I mean how their genes express, is dependent on a variety of factors. Pretending otherwise is dishonest, and will always be dishonest. None of this has any bearing on gender, which you could’ve gathered from the previous posts in this thread.

 

[Lacius]

You didn’t read what I said. Let me help you.
In the purely biological sense and strictly from a reproductive perspective there are indeed two sexes, male and female, both of which develop different primary and secondary sexual characteristics and produce one of two different types of gametes, eggs or sperm. That is how our species overwhelmingly forms and reproduces, although some anomalies do exist, in the same way as any other genetic anomaly. How close any given individual is to a given peak on the spectrum, by which I mean how their genes express, is dependent on a variety of factors. Pretending otherwise is dishonest, and will always be dishonest. None of this has any bearing on gender, which you could’ve gathered from the previous posts in this thread.

Let me help you. The only points I made were that gender is different from sex, and there are more than two sexes. I don't know why you're trying to force an argument between us, 3-4 months after I last posted anything substantive in this thread, when I haven't seen any substantive disagreement between us regarding the science. Let me know if I'm mistaken. Until then, I don't understand the purpose of this conversation.

I can see that I'm missed, but I don't post here as frequently because GBATemp is a cesspool of toxicity and incompetent staff. I can be coaxed into a conversation here and there if it I'm tagged by name and it peaks my interest, but this one doesn't do the latter.

 

[smf]

It's not any different than any other psychiatric dysphoria, and I reject politicized redefinition of words like gender.

Trans denial is also psychiatric dysphoria.

It's anti-scientific to argue gender is the same thing as sex, and it's anti-scientific to argue sex doesn't have more than two options.

It's anti science to say there are only two genders as well.

Saying that there are two and any people that don't fit into that are abnormal and don't count, is trans phobic.

It's no different to thinking that black people are abnormal.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/stop-using-phony-science-to-justify-transphobia/

 

[Foxi4]

Let me help you. The only points I made were that gender is different from sex, and there are more than two sexes. I don't know why you're trying to force an argument between us, 3-4 months after I last posted anything substantive in this thread, when I haven't seen any substantive disagreement between us regarding the science. Let me know if I'm mistaken. Until then, I don't understand the purpose of this conversation.

I can see that I'm missed, but I don't post here as frequently because GBATemp is a cesspool of toxicity and incompetent staff. I can be coaxed into a conversation here and there if it I'm tagged by name and it peaks my interest, but this one doesn't do the latter.

I was under the impression that there was some disagreement, and based on your chosen phrasing there clearly is one, but admittedly it goes well beyond the scope of the thread, much like some of the other diversions the thread went through so far. I believe some clarity on the subject is somewhat beneficial as it adds context to the discussion, but it seems that point was already reached. In the interest of expediting this disagreement, we can end it here.

 

[Hanafuda]

1. Gender and sex are two different things.

Bullshit. And you've got nothing that says otherwise except other people who think the same as you, who say otherwise. There is no hard scientific support for this. It all goes back to a crazy pervert named Dr. John Money, and his victims the Reimer brothers.

 

[RocaBOT]

This is not the topic of this thread, and you clearly don't have any idea what the scientific consensus on the question is in 2021. Can we discuss how relevant it is that states might want to force removal of laws that are clearly inegalitarian versus the proposed addition of a law that would instead potentially deepen the issue? That was the topic at hand, last I checked.

 

[The Catboy]

Bullshit. And you've got nothing that says otherwise except other people who think the same as you, who say otherwise. There is no hard scientific support for this. It all goes back to a crazy pervert named Dr. John Money, and his victims the Reimer brothers.

Outside of the hard evidence from peer-reviewed research that is constantly being updated.

Ok, some are a bit dated but the research hasn't really changed since those publications and is still commonly cited
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2010to2014/2013-transsexuality.html
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7477289/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10843193/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18980961/
https://eje.bioscientifica.com/view/journals/eje/155/suppl_1/1550107.xml
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19341803/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20562024/
https://www.jsm.jsexmed.org/article/S1743-6095(15)30695-0/pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6400230/

This is just a small fracture of the studies publically available if you feel inclined to do some actual research.

 

[Deleted member 514389]

It doesn't matter if each snowflake wants a right.
If they roll over you together as avalanche you're done for.

The same people who want to be "adressed correctls" seldom are able to give others the same benefit of doubt.
Nor do they have any understanding for the effect that decades of stupid socalisation have on your minds ability to switch "pronouns" or - anything - at will.

Good thing I loathe people on principle,
saves time.

Bullshit. And you've got nothing that says otherwise except other people who think the same as you, who say otherwise. There is no hard scientific support for this. It all goes back to a crazy pervert named Dr. John Money, and his victims the Reimer brothers.

That was extremly sad..
Poor David.
I wonder if that docu is still on yt.
"Lovemaps" yeah.
He was called "Dr.Money" rightfully.
He revoked most of his stupid assertions.

But much like the fool that falsely claimed "alpha/beta blabla people" existed, only to wish he never did when it turned out false:
Public memory is ridiculously persistant.
Yuck.

 

[DS1]

Belligerent nursing home attendant handing out pills: “Here you go, GRAMPS!”

“Damned whippersnapper…”

 

[Deinexim]

Hey gang remember when this website was about hacking your 3DS and wasn't inundated with threads made by the same loud ass 3-4 transphobic assholes who are still somehow allowed a platform despite repeatedly and publically spreading their awful awful bigoted opinion?

I sure don't

It's disappointing. @JonhathonBaxster specifically is one of these people. Literally nothing but negativity from this dude. He's repeatedly had his vile comments removed by mods but nothing ever actually comes from it. When will something be done?

Disappointing. This thread has absolutely nothing of value. These people who make these threads contribute nothing of value, they just want to spread their rhetoric and hope that one or two people who don't know any better will actually defend them. They don't contribute to real discussions, not discussions about gaming, not discussions about hacking, not even discussions about politics. Why the hell are these same threads from the same users that always have the same awful outcomes allowed? Is this good? Is this worth it? Does this create any sort of meaningful or constructive discourse? No. This sucks. These people are reprehensible.

For anyone who regularly deals with these assholes, here's a great video series.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJA_jUddXvY7v0VkYRbANnTnzkA_HMFtQ

I 100% agree with you. I legit joined GBATemp just to find tips on modding my DSi and Wii, and seeing these anti-trans people repeat poorly substantiated takes that have been debunked dozens of times is really annoying.

Also, thumbs up for linking to Innuendo Studios. Those videos have really helped me to deal with internet trolls and bigots.

 

[Viri]

*misgenders everyone in this thread again*

 

[MadonnaProject]

I find the notion of “you can’t change your chromosomes” to be silly. I am literally XX intersex, I am and have always been closer to biologically female. I was born with both parts (external male, internal female,) so which one am I? Do my female chromosomes determine that I am female or do my external parts determine me as male? What about the rest of my genetics? I definitely developed traits from both, so which one am I? The argument of chromosomes only gets muddier the more one researches the topic and gets past a middle school understanding of biology. I find it sad that transphobes don’t actually appreciate this kind of stuff, the biology and psychology of trans and intersex people is deeply fascinating. To keep this on topic, it’s ridiculous to reduce laws to external parts alone.

Nothing muddy about chromosomes. You can be intersex and still be chromosomal XX, XY and rarely XXY. To conflate intersex people who make up roughly ) 0.019% of the world's population with "modern transsexual" people is an absolute misnomer.

The whole argument of "I am a boy if I feel and behave like a boy" or girl for that matter is a psychological phenomenon. It has nothing to do with being intersex which is wholly biological with a psychological leaning of the intersex person on the gender spectrum. (and I use the word spectrum very carefully).

The fact you said you're XX means you're chromosome female. Just because you may have a penis doesn't mean you will ever be able to change this very biological fact. You can't just become biologically XY.

This is a universal, undeniable fact. It doesn't make someone transphobic.

 

[The Catboy]

Nothing muddy about chromosomes. You can be intersex and still be chromosomal XX, XY and rarely XXY. To conflate intersex people who make up roughly ) 0.019% of the world's population with "modern transsexual" people is an absolute misnomer.

The whole argument of "I am a boy if I feel and behave like a boy" or girl for that matter is a psychological phenomenon. It has nothing to do with being intersex which is wholly biological with a psychological leaning of the intersex person on the gender spectrum. (and I use the word spectrum very carefully).

The fact you said you're XX means you're chromosome female. Just because you may have a penis doesn't mean you will ever be able to change this very biological fact. You can't just become biologically XY.

This is a universal, undeniable fact. It doesn't make someone transphobic.

I am actually trans as well but that being said, it’s actually roughly between .05 to 1.7% of the population that is intersex/has intersex traits. https://www.unfe.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/UNFE-Intersex.pdf
As for the rest, my gender still isn’t defined by my sex and there’s plenty of research (that I literally just posted,) that agrees with me. One gender is far more than just a psychological phenomenon or a matter of “feelings.” Your information is just grossly outdated.

 

[Vergeeley]

Cut my head off for saying this but I just have to.

First of all, this law is ridiculous and I can't actually believe there was even a possibility it could exist. I guess people love their lables THAT much.

Yes, your "gender" is just another label you use for whatever reason. There is no such thing as "I feel like a boy/girl" if you stop thinking about "feminine/masculine" things in the first place. Having long hair doesn't make me a girl, it makes me a long-haired guy. If I like skirts that means I'm a crossdresser and it doesn't make me a girl. Heck, even a wish to have boobs doesn't make me a girl. Etc, etc.
Instead of accepting yourself as a human with your own interests or whatever you chose to conform to some stereotypes. You're not making life any easier for yourselves nor anybody else. Actually making it harder for people "somewhere inbetween".

You know, I don't really care. Just don't get angry at me if I use a "wrong" noun. If you don't feel good in your body that's another case and no one should have problems with that.
I'm not transphobic, I'm just not a huge fan of sexism.

 

[Hanafuda]

Ok, some are a bit dated but the research hasn't really changed since those publications and is still commonly cited
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2010to2014/2013-transsexuality.html
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7477289/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10843193/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18980961/
https://eje.bioscientifica.com/view/journals/eje/155/suppl_1/1550107.xml
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19341803/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20562024/
https://www.jsm.jsexmed.org/article/S1743-6095(15)30695-0/pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6400230/

Outside of the hard evidence from peer-reviewed research that is constantly being updated.

This is just a small fracture of the studies publically available if you feel inclined to do some actual research.

Our data supports the finding that ....
Suggests that ...
May, could ...

Nobody's been able to specifically identify a biological differentiation between gender and sex. Mental differentiation maybe, but not biological. "Gender" itself is a word that didn't have much use or meaning outside of the study of Latin and Romance languages (Spanish, French, Catalan, Italian, Portuguese), as a way for prudish teachers to avoid using the word "sex," until this theory/lifestyle came along.

I'm not saying it won't someday be proven. There's certainly a lot of effort going into trying to prove it (tells ya something, doesn't it?) But Lacius shouldn't be stating it is settled fact, or saying it's "anti-scientific" to disagree with him. Medically speaking, gender dysphoria is still treated as a psychological condition, which in the extreme case is treated by hormonal and surgical modification.

 

[The Catboy]

Our data supports the finding that ....
Suggests that ...
May, could ...

Nobody's been able to specifically identify a biological differentiation between gender and sex. Mental differentiation maybe, but not biological. "Gender" itself is a word that didn't have much use or meaning outside of the study of Latin and Romance languages (Spanish, French, Catalan, Italian, Portuguese), as a way for prudish teachers to avoid using the word "sex," until this theory/lifestyle came along.

I'm not saying it won't someday be proven. There's certainly a lot of effort going into trying to prove it (tells ya something, doesn't it?) But Lacius shouldn't be stating it is settled fact, or saying it's "anti-scientific" to disagree with him. Medically speaking, gender dysphoria is still treated as a psychological condition, which in the extreme case is treated by hormonal and surgical modification.

It is a fact, gender isn't sex.

 

[MadonnaProject]

I am actually trans as well but that being said, it’s actually roughly between .05 to 1.7% of the population that is intersex/has intersex traits. https://www.unfe.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/UNFE-Intersex.pdf
As for the rest, my gender still isn’t defined by my sex and there’s plenty of research (that I literally just posted,) that agrees with me. One gender is far more than just a psychological phenomenon or a matter of “feelings.” Your information is just grossly outdated.

What's gross is your entitlement and arrogance.

The issue with research is you can quite literally find research in support of any hypothesis and turn around and find an almost equal amount disputing the same.

You are the prime living example of the complication here - you're biologically XX, you claim to have genitals for both and even internal parts for both. You're intersex which means you are a tiny fraction of the world's population with this condition.

Arguably you're both male and female.

Then you say you're trans which begs the question, for someone with XX chromosome, who presents both genitals and internal organs, how can someone possibly, in their right mind, in this or any other universe, ever, in this history of existence and beyond EVER, correctly wager a guess as to what your pronoun is?

If there is a law which criminalizes this person for misgendering you, do you realise how it affects their life? their record and their employability for the future? So just because you are such a unique case they should suffer for the rest of their lives? I am saying this to stay on topic.

Do you also not see the safest way for anyone to exist around you in this regard is to just avoid you altogether, because if they engage you, they will forever be on eggshells and risk their very livelihood? Does that not make you the literal ticking bomb to be near? Is that not toxic? I am not being facetious, think about it.

Who even gave you the right to be so entitled that you get to decide someone's life and fate in this manner?

By calling unsuspecting people trans-phobic you are not only hurting them but creating a problem for yourself here. If you follow European history it is exactly situations such as this which led to movements in germany which I will not go into. Its because people had enough of these shenanigans and it only ended up hurting a lot of innocents.

I mean it in the most sincere way - calm down, you're clearly a very special person. Appreciate who you are and if people don't understand it then let them be, don't call them phobes, they may not know what they are doing. Respect is earned and never demanded. Same for acceptance.