Far Right Presidential Candidate Wins in Argentina

[Dark_Ansem]

Why would I want to move to a country that was ravaged by socialists? I already lived in a country that was ravaged by socialists, for most of my life.

Communists, actually.

- it’s only a sword of Damocles if you can execute it.

It's a sword of damocles to be able to say "no more money for you".

 

[Foxi4]

Communists, actually.

All squares are rectangles.

It's a sword of damocles to be able to say "no more money for you".

"You'd better keep not paying back your debts, or I'll stop giving you money!"

Can you lend me some cash? I *won't* pay it back, promise.

If there's only one takeaway from the last thirty years of US and world economics, it's that C-suite executives are fucking clueless. Strong economies are produced by supporting the working class, because workers are the economy. All Milei has done so far is pull the rug out from under them instead, which can only cause a decline in morale and an increase in unemployment/crime.

That's why they're still rolling in cash 30 years later. Y'know who knows the least about money? The guys that have the most of it.

 

[Xzi]

That's why they're still rolling in cash 30 years later. Y'know who knows the least about money? The guys that have the most of it.

They've caused a whole lot of economic crashes and depressions in that time span, and admittedly far too few of them have faced the appropriate justice for it. In Argentina that justice is most likely to be dispensed in the form of violent revolution, so Milei would be smart to not count his chickens before they hatch.

 

[Foxi4]

They've caused a whole lot of economic crashes and depressions in that time span, and admittedly far too few of them have faced the appropriate justice for it. In Argentina that justice is most likely to be dispensed in the form of violent revolution, so Milei would be smart to not count his chickens before they hatch.

Given the level of support he received during the election I doubt that's the case, but we shall see. People are ready for change. If Chile could climb its way out of the post-socialist hole, so can Argentina. It will take a long, long time, but it has to happen. It's the only path that doesn't lead to abject poverty and complete societal collapse.

 

[Dark_Ansem]

Almost as if it wasn't a deliberate effort of western countries to sink the economy of others who dared to speak against disaster capitalism.

 

[Xzi]

Given the level of support he received during the election I doubt that's the case, but we shall see. People are ready for change.

Positive change, sure. Milei's brand of libertarian nationalism offers nothing more on a practical level than the freedom to work oneself to death for the sake of some foreign corporation's bottom line, however. Seems inevitable people will begin to sour on it once they start to look past the surface.

 

[Foxi4]

Almost as if it wasn't a deliberate effort of western countries to sink the economy of others who dared to speak against disaster capitalism.

Conspiracy theorist.

 

[x65943]

Positive change, sure. Milei's brand of libertarian nationalism offers nothing more on a practical level than the freedom to work oneself to death for the sake of some foreign corporation's bottom line, however. Seems inevitable people will begin to sour on it once they start to look past the surface.

The current system of massive borrowing and a hopelessly broken economy with no chance to succeed or build a successful financial future may be even more bleak than working oneself to death for the robber barons

Whatever the solution it's not kirchnerism

 

[Xzi]

The current system of massive borrowing and a hopelessly broken economy with no chance to succeed or build a successful financial future may be even more bleak than working oneself to death for the robber barons

Borrowing can pay for itself several times over and provide long term economic benefits, so long as the money goes to the right programs/support for the right people. Argentina seems to have a problem with self-serving grifters being elected to office more than anything else, and Milei has yet to prove he's any different in that regard. Whether it's from foreign private investors or taxes collected in exchange for only vague and uncertain promises of a better future, there are plenty of opportunities to take a substantial cut for himself.

 

[Foxi4]

Borrowing can pay for itself several times over and provide long term economic benefits, so long as the money goes to the right programs/support for the right people. Argentina seems to have a problem with self-serving grifters being elected to office more than anything else, and Milei has yet to prove he's any different in that regard. Whether it's from foreign private investors or taxes collected in exchange for only vague and uncertain promises of a better future, there are plenty of opportunities to take a substantial cut for himself.

There’s a breaking point at which “you gotta spend money to make money” no longer works, and that’s the point where your interest surpasses the amount of money you could possibly make. Taking a risk in the present is one thing, selling the future to feed the present is another. I agree with you that loans and debt are, in and out of themselves, not a bad thing - loans put roofs over people’s heads. The problem is how you spend the loaned money, and if it’s the government borrowing it, it better damn well be spent in a way that produces a return on investment because it is *not* the government’s money - it’s *your* money. The collateral is the future of your children.

As an American you’re probably used to frivolous spending left and right so it doesn’t shock you, but the rest of the world is in a state of absolute panic watching the U.S. debt clock spin like casino slots, and you live in a superpower that had Silicon Valley, Hollywood and other *major* cash cows generating steady income. Argentina doesn’t have that because, despite sitting on some of the world’s most valuable resources, they’ve cut their industry at the hamstrings. They are *not* in a position to fund a welfare state at this time, their currency is worth less than the paper it’s printed on. They *have* to course correct or you’re right, they will be facing a violent revolution, but not for the reasons you think.

Milei is not in a comfortable position - he will not fix the problem during his term because he’s not God. It will take multiple presidencies, multiple cabinets, all staying the course and trying their damndest, to dig them out of the hole they’ve put themselves in, and no economist on the planet is optimistic enough to think otherwise. Milei has one job - lay the groundwork for recovery. He will be absolutely despised for it, and more likely than not, his contribution won’t be fully appreciated until long after he’s gone, and that’s *if* he’s even moderately successful. Argentina is very much in the “cross your fingers and tune back in again in around 10 years” category. I’m sorry, but that’s just the truth.

I should know - in 1990, one year after I was born, inflation in Poland was sitting at *585.5%*. It took years of reform before we started using currency that wasn’t Monopoly Money - we switched from the old Złoty (PLZ) to the new Złoty (PLN) in 1995, and we just had to let the market stabilise. Those were wild times, times of big booms and big busts, but we persevered. Argentina will have to go through the same process.

 

[Xzi]

Milei is not in a comfortable position - he will not fix the problem during his term because he’s not God. It will take multiple presidencies, multiple cabinets, all staying the course and trying their damndest, to dig them out of the hole they’ve put themselves in, and no economist on the planet is optimistic enough to think otherwise. Milei has one job - lay the groundwork for recovery. He will be absolutely despised for it, and more likely than not, his contribution won’t be fully appreciated until long after he’s gone, and that’s *if* he’s even moderately successful. Argentina is very much in the “cross your fingers and tune back in again in around 10 years” category. I’m sorry, but that’s just the truth.

That's what is worrisome. Milei has demonstrated plenty of confidence in himself and his plans for Argentina's future, but he has not demonstrated much in the way of humility. If the people demand he step aside in a future election, will he accept that result or will he crack down hard on dissent and turn into the guy who does press conferences while wearing a jacket covered top to bottom in military medals?

 

[Foxi4]

That's what is worrisome. Milei has demonstrated plenty of confidence in himself and his plans for Argentina's future, but he has not demonstrated much in the way of humility. If the people demand he step aside in a future election, will he accept that result or will he crack down hard on dissent and turn into the guy who does press conferences while wearing a jacket covered top to bottom in military medals?

Here’s for hoping he doesn’t. That being said, the last guy covered top to bottom in military medals fixed Chile. Not endorsing the guy, kind of hard to endorse someone guilty of genocide, but total societal collapse on the level of Mad Max is orders of magnitude worse. In the case of Chile, Pinochet was a necessary stepping stone between the past and the future - a gruesome one, to be sure, and one best avoided if possible. The broader point here is that this kind of reform *will* hurt, and it’ll hurt *for a long time* before we see any appreciable difference in the standard of living. Argentinians should steel their resolve because that’s what’s going to happen. This is not a problem that can go away by waving a magic wand, the country’s too far gone.

 

[Dark_Ansem]

Conspiracy theorist.

*points at Condor*

 

[Foxi4]

*points at Condor*

Argentina’s economic issues are not caused by any western interference and are entirely of their own making. They’re not Cuba. If you think Argentina would’ve been some kind of socialist paradise if not for Operation Condor, which concluded 40 years ago, you must be on some kind of A-grade copium.

 

[Dark_Ansem]

Argentina’s economic issues are not caused by any western interference and are entirely of their own making. They’re not Cuba. If you think Argentina would’ve been some kind of socialist paradise if not for Operation Condor, which concluded 40 years ago, you must be on some kind of A-grade copium.

I didn't say any of that, are you OK?

 

[Foxi4]

I didn't say any of that, are you OK?

Almost as if it wasn't a deliberate effort of western countries to sink the economy of others who dared to speak against disaster capitalism.

*points at Condor*

What are you saying, exactly? Besides vagaries. What are you suggesting? Be specific.

 

[Dark_Ansem]

What are you saying, exactly? Besides vagueries. What are you suggesting? Be specific.

To quote one of your favourite people in the world "I'm just asking questions here". I'm also interested in the answers.

 

[Foxi4]

To quote one of your favourite people in the world "I'm just asking questions here". I'm also interested in the answers.

More vagaries. The juice is not worth the squeeze, consider this line of inquiry closed.

 

[Dark_Ansem]

More vagueries. The juice is not worth the squeeze, consider this line of inquiry closed.

Incapable of answering without attributing to others claims they never did, I see.

 

[Foxi4]

Incapable of answering without attributing to others claims they never did, I see.

You are refusing to make a claim. I can only make educated guesses based on your usual spaghetti. Since you seem ruffled by that, I’m leaving it be because I’m not dealing in vagaries, anyone can make any assessment of what you’ve said for themselves, I lost interest.