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California Court SHUTS DOWN Transgender Pronoun Law

RocaBOT

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You guys do understand that the text was never about guessing blindly anyone's pronouns or preferred names, but about actual harassment that comes from people refusing to use them even when they've been told countless times, right? Just like what some people in this thread advocate doing? (Like, calling peeps whatever they want because they're assholes that can't be bothered with respecting someone's identity?)

And you guys also understand that the point we're trying to make is about that specific disrespectful behaviour, and nothing else, right? Right?
There's nothing wrong about genuine mistakes, my family members even do those from times to times. And those were never the target of the law or of the point we're making in this thread.
Like, all we ask is that you make an effort to not deliberately call us by our deadnames or wrong pronouns. The keyword being deliberately. You do it once in a while by mistake because tired or whatever is fine. You do it all the time without even questioning it is just lack of basic respect, in which case you don't deserve ours. Simple as that.
 

SG854

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Though I don't agree with your recollection of our interactions, I think we can both say that I deserve respect, because I am a person. If gender is a social construct, then it is possibly as real as god. Are you ready to accept Jesus as your savior?
No, to just all of that. You don’t deserve respect, provide proof for some of your nonsense and maybe you might earn a little respect.
@Lilith Valentine this is why I have said in the past that pushing the idea that gender is a social construct will give fuel for these people to use against trans. Because if gender is a social construct then why not pray the gay away essentially. I always go with biological reasons for someone's gender. And maybe a mix of environmental. A bit if both. But not purely social construction. Going with some biological reasoning for gender validates trans existence more then the purely social construction argument. And has science backing too.
 
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@Lilith Valentine this is why I have said in the past that pushing the idea that gender is a social construct will give fuel for these people to use against trans. Because if gender is a social construct then why not pray the gay away essentially. I always go with biological reasons for someone's gender. And maybe a mix of environmental. A bit if both. But not purely social construction. Going with some biological reasoning for trans validates their existence more then the purely social construction argument. And has science backing too.
That’s actually why I stopped using that phrase when I realized it was harmful towards the trans community. It ignores all of the factors that actually go into one’s gender and is just wrong. The actual phrase should be “gender expression is a social construct,” because it is. How one expresses their gender has little to do with their gender.
 

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That’s actually why I stopped using that phrase when I realized it was harmful towards the trans community. It ignores all of the factors that actually go into one’s gender and is just wrong. The actual phrase should be “gender expression is a social construct,” because it is. How one expresses their gender has little to do with their gender.
Even if you have realized it other trans haven't. And still push for that idea. So anti trans will base their counter arguments agaisnt that.

But it'll be best to make it known so that the person you are arguing against knows how your wording differs and explain the differences so that they can better understand. Against tabzer highly likely things won't change. But it's good for other people tuning in.

The trans argument does have alot of not so great properly worded points and that wording is what's leading to alot of confusion. And because of this it's more understandable why people are just not 100% on board. So give it some time, refining your arguments and a little bit of patience I think is the best approach to this.
 

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I wouldn't mind your peer reviewed sources stating that trans people exist. Should be pretty interesting.
Ok, some are a bit dated but the research hasn't really changed since those publications and is still commonly cited
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2010to2014/2013-transsexuality.html
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7477289/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10843193/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18980961/
https://eje.bioscientifica.com/view/journals/eje/155/suppl_1/1550107.xml
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19341803/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20562024/
https://www.jsm.jsexmed.org/article/S1743-6095(15)30695-0/pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6400230/
Even if you have realized it other trans haven't. And still push for that idea. So anti trans will base their counter arguments agaisnt that.

But it'll be best to make it known so that the person you are arguing against knows how your wording differs and explain the differences so that they can better understand. Against tabzer highly likely things won't change. But it's good for other people tuning in.

The trans argument does have alot of not so great properly worded points and that wording is what's leading to alot of confusion. And because of this it's more understandable why people are just not 100% on board. So give it some time, refining your arguments and a little bit of patience I think is the best approach to this.
You are preaching to the choir in regards to the misuse of that phrases and issues with the trans community. Unfortunately, I think the trans community wants a quick retort like how transphobes have, "There is only 2 gender," the trans community wants something like that. And just like the commonly used phrases from transphobes, the ones we came up with were mostly incorrect and invalidated due to the nature of omitting details.
As for my responses, I do agree that I could go about them in a better way and refine them.
 
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tabzer

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Thanks for the research. I will follow up at another time. As far as the "there are only 2 genders" thing, you have to understand that the polarizing of people started with sexuality before gender (homo hetero). I personally think such classifications are a waste of time and deters people from seeing people as people (and instead symbols), and by extension, gender. Gender, being purposely more abstract and subjective in this context, isn't really in anybody's realm of domain. You have as much of a right to desire to be called something as someone has the right to want to call you something else. If you are respectful people will generally treat you with respect. If you wear your calling as a badge like religious people do, you will experience rejection and probably disdain. It isn't hateful to admit these things. In fact, I'm showing you more respect in responding to you despite your consistent name-calling and demonization of me. Ironic, isn't it?

Ok, some are a bit dated but the research hasn't really changed since those publications and is still commonly cited
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articles/2010to2014/2013-transsexuality.html
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7477289/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/10843193/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18980961/
https://eje.bioscientifica.com/view/journals/eje/155/suppl_1/1550107.xml
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19341803/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20562024/
https://www.jsm.jsexmed.org/article/S1743-6095(15)30695-0/pdf
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6400230/

You are preaching to the choir in regards to the misuse of that phrases and issues with the trans community. Unfortunately, I think the trans community wants a quick retort like how transphobes have, "There is only 2 gender," the trans community wants something like that. And just like the commonly used phrases from transphobes, the ones we came up with were mostly incorrect and invalidated due to the nature of omitting details.
As for my responses, I do agree that I could go about them in a better way and refine them.
 

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im gonna regret posting here and im certainly not going to read the 13 pages nor the link in the op. but after reading the first page and part of the last, im gonna say that i bet most of you cant even tell the difference between your god and religion, seeing that you cant tell apart gender and sex, or notice the difference between male-female and "a dude wants to be a parrot" (spoiler: one is a gender thing and the other isnt. guess wich one is wich)

im also gonna add that i have yet to see any olimpic gold on a trans woman, and that i have read about more bathroom attacks by cis men than i can number vs zero bathroom attacks by trans women. at most, cis men trolling/trying to evade jail, e.g. noone taking hormones etc. if you want any colective to attack because sexual assault, i can point to police and church.

also im guessing noone here who says "the children" actually has a remote idea of how hormones work at all, as they A are hard as hell to get, and B you can do a "stop puberty for a few years while you think about it. after that, if you still think you wanna transition, we will give you the hormones you need, and if you changed your mind you can just stop taking puberty blockers and your body will resume where it left"

if im gonna get banned or whatever because i didnt bother to link any page that clarifies that there are thousands of sexual assaults made by church employees (i dont know the exact word now, but you get it) or something like that, please just remove the part of the comment that offended you and leave the rest here, invisible mod

also i'd like to note that there are 1.5% redhaired and 2% green eyed ppl in the world. intersex ppl made about 1.7% so there goes the "it is not natural" excuse too
 

tabzer

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im also gonna add that i have yet to see any olimpic gold on a trans woman

I know you weren't talking to me, because it is obvious that you haven't read me. But I am curious. Are you disappointed, or holding out hope? IMO I think the transgender fad is primarily dominated by men idiots, and in the end, hurts actual women.

In a real respect, it is evidence that the mentality in which people abuse others is being cornered. So does that mean that all the would-be wife-beaters are turning into sissies?

That's progressive.
 
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VzUh

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I know you weren't talking to me, because it is obvious that you haven't read me.

that is correct. i havent read much of this thread, and im not gonna do it because i read some other threads like this in the past and they are all always the same, and i have better things to do (watching paint dry is a better thing to do than reading this type of threads, so it isnt very hard to have better things to do)


But I am curious. Are you disappointed, or holding out hope? IMO I think the transgender fad is primarily dominated by men idiots, and in the end, hurts actual women.

i literally dont care, i just said that because "oh but muh rights, trans ppl is going to steal all women medals with their superior bodies" and other stuff ppl say as reasons not to let trans ppl exist

In a real respect, it is evidence that the mentality in which people abuse others is being cornered. So does that mean that all the would-be wife-beaters are turning into sissies?

That's progressive.

1-what
i really dont understand what you just said. maybe because its almost 6am here, maybe because not first language, maybe because it is too unsensical for me to get it
2-if you are saying what i think you are saying, i will resort again to the fact that 40% of policemen are reported for domestic violence, with the real numbers being even higher. it is way easier to become a police than to transition, you know
 
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60's/70's: We are gays. Accept us.
80's/90's: We are gays. God made us this way because God doesn't make mistakes.
00's/10's: We are trans. God made a mistake putting us in the wrong bodies.

I accept all of you but effing make up your minds.
 

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60's/70's: We are gays. Accept us.
80's/90's: We are gays. God made us this way because God doesn't make mistakes.
00's/10's: We are trans. God made a mistake putting us in the wrong bodies.

I accept all of you but effing make up your minds.

You do realize gay folk and trans folk are different, they just come together in seeking equality and fair representation, right? Some trans folk are "straight" by conservative definitions, and gay folk certainly don't have to be trans to love someone of their gender.
 

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You do realize gay folk and trans folk are different, they just come together in seeking equality and fair representation, right? Some trans folk are "straight" by conservative definitions, and gay folk certainly don't have to be trans to love someone of their gender.
Classic gaslighting. People from western privilege have developed a habit of "fighting" for a "just cause" when all they're doing is being arrogant and talking down to others.

I am a coloured chap. I have sex with women and men. In my culture we have men who dress like women and live like women, whilst others do the same but more of a "drag" thing.

We also have hermaphrodites, gays and lesbians.

It is not an issue for anyone as long as what is done is done in the privacy of one's personal life and not pushed onto another. People accept it and there's those who don't. All are allowed to do as they wish as long as they're not impeding on someone else's life.

What people like YOU in the west do is dictate how others should and should not feel. If they ever say something you don't agree with, you come down on them with such unbridled hatred that its no wonder the nazi movement started amongst your kind (in the west).

Do YOU realise the point I was making or did it go over your head? Obviously gay people and trans people are different, but their message could not be more diametrically opposed - one says they were born gay and the whole basis of who they are is that nature doesn't make mistakes. The others chirp the opposite.

If gender is a societal construct then explain this - what makes a man and a woman? what is the difference netween being male, female, man and woman?

Socially one can get breast implants and gouge their penis out and make it a vagina, but what about their biological chromosomes. I a biological born woman transitions to become a man, when menopause hits them and they need therapy for bone density, hot flashes and other things, will they be denied this treatment because they're men?

Think about it. Don't rage about it. You people in the west don't think, just whinge a lot. Too much.
 

Plasmaster09

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Classic gaslighting. People from western privilege have developed a habit of "fighting" for a "just cause" when all they're doing is being arrogant and talking down to others.

I am a coloured chap. I have sex with women and men. In my culture we have men who dress like women and live like women, whilst others do the same but more of a "drag" thing.

We also have hermaphrodites, gays and lesbians.

It is not an issue for anyone as long as what is done is done in the privacy of one's personal life and not pushed onto another. People accept it and there's those who don't. All are allowed to do as they wish as long as they're not impeding on someone else's life.

What people like YOU in the west do is dictate how others should and should not feel. If they ever say something you don't agree with, you come down on them with such unbridled hatred that its no wonder the nazi movement started amongst your kind (in the west).

Do YOU realise the point I was making or did it go over your head? Obviously gay people and trans people are different, but their message could not be more diametrically opposed - one says they were born gay and the whole basis of who they are is that nature doesn't make mistakes. The others chirp the opposite.

If gender is a societal construct then explain this - what makes a man and a woman? what is the difference netween being male, female, man and woman?

Socially one can get breast implants and gouge their penis out and make it a vagina, but what about their biological chromosomes. I a biological born woman transitions to become a man, when menopause hits them and they need therapy for bone density, hot flashes and other things, will they be denied this treatment because they're men?

Think about it. Don't rage about it. You people in the west don't think, just whinge a lot. Too much.
I had seven strokes, three seizures, twenty-six facepalms, eight headdesks and a partridge in a species-wide existential despair tree reading this.
The first 3/4 of this consists of exaggeration, generalization and possibly-deliberate misuse of terms. I don't know what you think gaslighting means, but I'm fairly certain it doesn't mean "lying about your cause or justification"- and even if it does, that is ALSO not what is happening here.
As for the classic "don't push it onto others", not only is "this is just who I am and these are the pronouns I go by" not even remotely close to that, but even if it was, such an argument goes both ways by default- any time someone deliberately misgenders a trans person, they're pushing their transphobic views onto them. Any time someone touts their LGBTQ+phobic views as fact when they clearly are not, distorts the actual facts at hand for the sake of bigotry and personal opinion, et cetera, they are pushing their bigoted views on whoever they're trying to convince.
Not all people of a certain group, regardless of the group (whether biological, neurological or ideological), have the same justification for the group's existence or their being in it- if they even have or need a justification. Claiming that, especially nowadays, all or even most gay people use a "God made me this way" excuse (or even any excuse at all, because they shouldn't have to provide one by now just to EXIST), or that all or most trans people use a "God made a mistake" excuse (and once again, one they fundamentally should not need to provide just in order to not be discriminated against) is an extreme generalization and demonstrably false.
In regards to gender... have you read the past couple of pages? Gender itself is not a social construct, and the phrase stating it is is one that desperately needs abandoning, as others have stated. Gender expression, on the other hand, is absolutely a social construct- it varies heavily from culture to culture, throughout history, et cetera. Assuming someone else's biological sex and/or gender identity based solely on their clothing (a sadly recurring counter-"argument" throughout this thread) is a completely baseless assumption, and the consequences of that guess being incorrect lie entirely on the person making said assumption.
And finally, the cherry on top: a complete lack of understanding as to what biological sex and chromosomes are and mean. No, it's not all black and white. No, it's not all black and white with a thin veneer of "socially justified surgery" (or whatever the deep-fried fuck you're trying to call it, six of the seven strokes I mentioned earlier occurred while reading that paragraph). That shit's complicated, and the SRY gene isn't going to 100% reliably behave a certain way according to the whims of the uneducated.

Note: In order to avoid the dreaded "fallacy fallacy", I must contractually state that this does not directly mean the things you are trying to prove are automatically false. They flat-out objectively are, and they're even morally reprehensible at every level as a nice fringe benefit, but that's a topic for another time that will hopefully be never because you and the others spouting similar arguments will hopefully learn from this discussion and become better, more accepting people.
 

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Classic gaslighting. People from western privilege have developed a habit of "fighting" for a "just cause" when all they're doing is being arrogant and talking down to others.

I am a coloured chap. I have sex with women and men. In my culture we have men who dress like women and live like women, whilst others do the same but more of a "drag" thing.

We also have hermaphrodites, gays and lesbians.

It is not an issue for anyone as long as what is done is done in the privacy of one's personal life and not pushed onto another. People accept it and there's those who don't. All are allowed to do as they wish as long as they're not impeding on someone else's life.

What people like YOU in the west do is dictate how others should and should not feel. If they ever say something you don't agree with, you come down on them with such unbridled hatred that its no wonder the nazi movement started amongst your kind (in the west).

Do YOU realise the point I was making or did it go over your head? Obviously gay people and trans people are different, but their message could not be more diametrically opposed - one says they were born gay and the whole basis of who they are is that nature doesn't make mistakes. The others chirp the opposite.

If gender is a societal construct then explain this - what makes a man and a woman? what is the difference netween being male, female, man and woman?

Socially one can get breast implants and gouge their penis out and make it a vagina, but what about their biological chromosomes. I a biological born woman transitions to become a man, when menopause hits them and they need therapy for bone density, hot flashes and other things, will they be denied this treatment because they're men?

Think about it. Don't rage about it. You people in the west don't think, just whinge a lot. Too much.
I don't believe I was raging, but your reply is a bit all over the place and kinda laughable in the assumptions you've made regarding my heritage. I was just pointing out, in two sentences, that your statement doesn't work because you're comparing two different groups and assuming your interpritation of their message to the world is linked... not even touching on the whole "god made a mistake" nonsense. Did you revive this thread because you need a chat, comrade? We can just talk without the accusations and pitchforks if you've got anxieties you'd like addressed.
 

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At some point during this discussion we’ve lost sight of what it was about, a proposed legal requirement of referring to someone using their preferred name and pronouns under threat of jail time and hefty fines. If we’re done mud slinging now, we should return to that subject, although it has been a while since July, so I’m not sure if there even is anything more to say on the matter, especially not anything constructive.

EDIT: I’ll be deleting any further personal disputes that have no connection to the subject at hand. If your post doesn’t contribute to the conversation, or you have no comment, you don’t need to press the Reply button.
 
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60's/70's: We are gays. Accept us.
80's/90's: We are gays. God made us this way because God doesn't make mistakes.
00's/10's: We are trans. God made a mistake putting us in the wrong bodies.

I accept all of you but effing make up your minds.
The LGBT+ movement was largely started by trans women of color. The trans community and trans rights have always been part of the greater LGBT+ movement.
 

osirisjem

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They need the like button to have an emoticon (thumbs up or laugh associated with) cause a lot of people just make me laugh even if I agree/disagree/don't care with their comment.
click and Hold the Like button

D5F63E46-2A17-442A-A0A5-54D95AE5D5E1.jpeg
 

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The multiverse was started by trans women of colour. Sure.
The Gay Liberation Movement was literally started by and ran by trans women. Trans people go back even further protecting for LGBT+ right. This isn’t some new phenomenon, trans people have always been fighting for the rights of the LGBT+ and trying to get respect our identities.
 

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