[POLL] 2020 U.S. Presidential Election

[FAST6191]

Politicians and business wonks are morons and spout enough nonsense that we can freeze things now and look at words for decades to come. This much we know and thus is somewhat boring.

How about we play sell me on both candidates.
What would make me want to vote for either of them (we will skip the third parties for now, though if we want to get someone to that votes cast = funded then why not).
Better if you in a given reply might seek reasons for both candidates. Even if you might dine upon a bullet sooner than vote for the other guy let's play find a reason to do so. Something they might be stronger in. Something that someone with either a different risk tolerance or approach to society running might seek in someone. If we can then maybe also do an assessment of how likely a given policy is to actually come to pass* -- term limits is a discussion as tried and true as "we need to fix potholes" and nothing ever changes there.

*So the previous guy wanted some kind of taxpayer funded healthcare. Got a watered down piece of meh in the end, and since further gutted (though that was a nice legal/legislative play that did it).
The current guy famously wanted to do one of the biggest civil engineering works in history and build a wall through lots of nice desert across a continent. Something that would likely make the FDR new deal look like a random school's acquisition request for ream of paper in comparison, all for what is likely to be a folly.

 

[Lacius]

Even Snopes, which you know damned well isn't objective, agrees with me. And while they say "Mixture" what the answer really says is "False." Because Snopes says "Although Trump's advice would functionally result in some people attempting to cast two ballots, ..." that will only happen if their mailed-in ballot had never been counted. The President even specifically instructed, if they send you a ballot without you asking for it, complete it and mail it in as soon as possible, to make sure they get it and count it. But then, go verify that at the polls.

View attachment 223761

Like I said, he told people to attempt to vote twice.

 

[MurraySkull]

Like I said, he told people to attempt to vote twice.

No, he didn't!

 

[RichardTheKing]

...You know non-Americans could easily tamper with this poll, and there's no way to limit it to American citizens?

I won't be voting here because I'm Australian, and I know jack- about the candidates.

 

[Lacius]

No, he didn't!

"If it has not been counted, vote -- which is every citizen's right to do -- you go and vote. You press the lever and vote. So if it hasn't been counted, if it doesn't show up, go and vote, and then, if your mail-in ballot arrives after you vote, which it shouldn't but possibly it could perhaps, that ballot will not be used or counted in that your vote has already been cast and tabulated, so this way you're guaranteed to have your vote count," Trump said. "So send it in. And then see and then vote and let's see what happens. You're now assured, though, that your very precious and important vote has been counted."

He's telling people to attempt to vote a second time despite voting by mail. He even says to go ahead and do it if one can.

If one were to follow his advice, that would be a federal crime.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

...You know non-Americans could easily tamper with this poll, and there's no way to limit it to American citizens?

I won't be voting here because I'm Australian, and I know jack- about the candidates.

Well, the poll isn't for just eligible voters in the United States. It's for Tempers of all nationalities, ages, etc. It's not meant to be indicative of what the United States will do come election day.

If we were to guess what the United States will do on election day based on the poll, remember the 2016 Temper poll was skewed for Trump by 9.9 points compared to the actual election results. Since Biden is winning this poll by 7.9, that would translate to Americans voting for Biden by 17.8 points. That'd be nice, but I don't think that's going to happen.

 

[RichardTheKing]

Well, the poll isn't for just eligible voters in the United States. It's for Tempers of all nationalities, ages, etc. It's not meant to be indicative of what the United States will do come election day.

If we were to guess what the United States will do on election day based on the poll, remember the 2016 Temper poll was skewed for Trump by 9.9 points compared to the actual election results. Since Biden is winning this poll by 7.9, that would translate to Americans voting for Biden by 17.8 points. That'd be nice, but I don't think that's going to happen.

Is there a candidate who's advocating for a reduction in religious, cultist power and influence? For an increase in men's reproductive rights, improved education for boys, increased awareness of male suicide rates, homelessness rates, conviction rates and punishment severity? For an increased awareness of male victims of physical and sexual assault, and female culprits of such crimes?

I don't know anything about the current US candidates - heck, I don't know anything about Australian candidates - but the above is what I'd like improved, in any nation.

 

[Lacius]

Is there a candidate who's advocating for a reduction in religious, cultist power and influence? For an increase in men's reproductive rights, improved education for boys, increased awareness of male suicide rates, homelessness rates, conviction rates and punishment severity? For an increased awareness of male victims of physical and sexual assault, and female culprits of such crimes?

I don't know anything about the current US candidates - heck, I don't know anything about Australian candidates - but the above is what I'd like improved, in any nation.

An argument can be made that the Republican Party has become a semi-theocratic party since the culture wars when the social conservatives and the Republican Party formed a symbiotic relationship that's now inseparable. The Republicans regularly want to force their religious beliefs down everybody's throats by making the aforementioned beliefs the law. So, you probably wouldn't want to vote for the Republican Party.

As for the second part of your post, you've phrased your concerns, some of them legitimate, in a way that sounds a lot like the often misogynistic men's rights movement, and I don't think either candidate would touch that with a ten-foot pole.

 

[DarthDub]

#Trump2020 Why the hell are you guys voting for Sticky Joe? Dude's a pedo/sexual predator, gross.

 

[RichardTheKing]

An argument can be made that the Republican Party has become a semi-theocratic party since the culture wars when the social conservatives and the Republican Party formed a symbiotic relationship that's now inseparable. The Republicans regularly want to force their religious beliefs down everybody's throats by making the aforementioned beliefs the law. So, you probably wouldn't want to vote for the Republican Party.

As for the second part of your post, you've phrased your concerns, some of them legitimate, in a way that sounds a lot like the often misogynistic men's rights movement, and I don't think either candidate would touch that with a ten-foot pole.

And what, the women's rights movement isn't also misandristic? Neither that or men's rights movement is pure egalitarianism (since they both cover only one sex out of two), and the causes I would like to see advanced could also be said to fall into that last one...

Thanks for the information, regardless.

 

[Lacius]

And what, the women's rights movement isn't also misandristic?

That's correct. The women's rights movement is about uplifting women and girls. The men's rights movement is largely a backlash against feminism. They're not the same.

None of this is to say there aren't legitimate issues within the men's rights movement. My problem is with the movement itself.

 

[choupette]

I'm not from USA, I suppose I'd vote democrat by default, but if the democrat offered a candidate such as Mr Trump, I'd vote the hell against him.

This man has numerous serious problems, and contrary to what he says poor people, he doesn't do a damn thing for poor people.

 

[MercilessDeth]

I didn't vote in the poll because I've never voted in a presidential election. I've never held much faith in the political process in the US, and throughout my life I've not felt that material conditions have improved for the general populace as a result of our political system.

That said, I am curious about the general demographics of the community here. I would think it skews younger than me now, but I'm not sure. A few odd things I've noticed are arguments against Trump/GOP framed as if they're not longstanding issues with the GOP (the "culture wars" as we seem to be at a fever pitch, but it isn't really a "new" issue in my mind).

People that seem to support the Democrat party lean heavily on the Obama years. I don't have anything against Obama, but his leadership was not indicative of other Democrat leaders we've had.

I see that (some) people are informed about our country's history but an idealized version starts to come out. Part of that is psychological, where we tend to remember only the best/worst elements and not the day to day minutiae. I can definitely see myself the ways Trump is dissatisfying to many, but I see more surprise in that fact with younger people who might not have been very engaged (or remember) the Bush era, Clinton era, etc.

Sorry for the long post, just looking for some viewpoints. To me, it doesn't seem like much has changed in the political arena--aside from social media bringing out a level of vitriol in the general public that wasn't as noticeable before

 

[Lacius]

#Trump2020 Why the hell are you guys voting for Sticky Joe? Dude's a pedo/sexual predator, gross.

If your standards of evidence are low enough that you're going to accept Biden is a sexual predator, then you must also accept that Trump is a sexual predator.

To be clear, I'm not arguing that either one is a sexual predator. I'm making a point about biases causing inconsistent standards of evidence.

I didn't vote in the poll because I've never voted in a presidential election. I've never held much faith in the political process in the US

I vote in every election, but I'm in agreement with you here. For me, it's because the electoral college is indefensibly stupid.

That said, I am curious about the general demographics of the community here. I would think it skews younger than me now, but I'm not sure.

What's also interesting is that Trump won the Temper poll by +7.8 percentage points in 2016, and in 2020, Biden is winning by 7.8 points. That's a swing of 15.6 points.

People that seem to support the Democrat party lean heavily on the Obama years. I don't have anything against Obama, but his leadership was not indicative of other Democrat leaders we've had.

I agree, but I would argue that (whether one likes it or not) the Obama-Biden years are largely indicative of what a Biden presidency would be like. The difference is Biden now is more to the left of where Obama was when he left office.

 

[MMX]

I believe in think-tanks of the elites that plan these things that happen like in portland. FBI, CIA whatever.

It's like they create the problem, then steer people into a reaction and then provide a solution.

but besides that you can argue against each candidate.
How can Trump/Republicans not do anything against the current situation? He says vote for me I'm the candidate for order/justice
How can Democrats not do anything against the current situation? They say vote for me I'm the candidate for equality, their version of justice.

Do you see how artificial this seems? It seems to me that the chaos right now is artificially created.

That's correct. The women's rights movement is about uplifting women and girls.

How is degrading women into working units, consumers of products and the extreme sexualization of them such a good rights movement? I'm sure the government loves it as it's 100% utilization of work force / tax income and companies love it for the revenue

 

[MercilessDeth]

I vote in every election, but I'm in agreement with you here. For me, it's because the electoral college is indefensibly stupid.

What's also interesting is that Trump won the Temper poll by +7.8 percentage points in 2016, and in 2020, Biden is winning by 7.8 points. That's a swing of 15.6 points.

I agree, but I would argue that (whether one likes it or not) the Obama-Biden years are largely indicative of what a Biden presidency would be like. The difference is Biden now is more to the left of where Obama was when he left office.

I do find that interesting about the previous poll here--I don't think I saw it then. Trump definitely had support in 2016 from people who would not normally go GOP. I think he scooped up disillusioned Bernie supporters, since both his and Bernie's campaign focused a lot on fighting against "politics as normal". Some people would overlook his faults due to wanting a change of any sort; anecdotally those people don't seem to feel the same way now.

I wasn't surprised at all that the anti-Hillary contingent was in Trump's camp either. Hillary certainly had a lot of support, but anti-Clinton sentiment leftover from Bill seems incredibly common among people I know about 8-10+ years older than me. I'm 31, so I "remember" Bill's second term but wasn't very tuned in because I was young. Bill is very polarizing to some people. As you said of the electoral college, there's not much point in voting in my state. It's definitely "safely" red and doesn't have much sway...on the ground though there's more diversity of opinions than one might imagine though.

I agree with you almost fully..I see your point in the Obama comparisons. I was mentally attributing it to younger people I guess, since they would primarily recall his presidency (and that it wasn't quite as tumultuous as the last four years).

I'm not sure I'd consider Biden left of Obama though, they're both pretty close center in my opinion. I'm using left/right by abstracting the political compass to the x-axis definition minus the liberal/authoritarian y-axis though. I've been more careful about terminology lately just to catch myself from labeling people liberal/conservative (equated with left/right in the US) in the social media world, and catching myself in an echo chamber. There's a lot of vitriol on some of those platforms lately, so I try to self-maintain my own civility while seeing different opinions haha

 

[KingVamp]

Even with Trump, I thought getting rid of the electoral college was hasty... At the beginning, but I haven't seen a convincing argument to keep it.

Biden himself might not be more left, but the party as a whole is.

 

[Lacius]

I'm not sure I'd consider Biden left of Obama though, they're both pretty close center in my opinion. I'm using left/right by abstracting the political compass to the x-axis definition minus the liberal/authoritarian y-axis though. I've been more careful about terminology lately just to catch myself from labeling people liberal/conservative (equated with left/right in the US) in the social media world, and catching myself in an echo chamber. There's a lot of vitriol on some of those platforms lately, so I try to self-maintain my own civility while seeing different opinions haha

Even with Trump, I thought getting rid of the electoral college was hasty... At the beginning, but I haven't seen a convincing argument to keep it.

Biden himself might not be more left, but the party as a whole is.

Biden is the most progressive nominee for president we've ever had.
https://www.politifact.com/factchec...a/joe-bidens-platform-progressive-obama-says/
https://www.vox.com/2019/12/20/2102...-bernie-sanders-elizabeth-warren-barack-obama

 

[MercilessDeth]

Biden is the most progressive nominee for president we've ever had.
https://www.politifact.com/factchec...a/joe-bidens-platform-progressive-obama-says/
https://www.vox.com/2019/12/20/2102...-bernie-sanders-elizabeth-warren-barack-obama

I read through the links, and I'll admit that I didn't watch the primary debates so a lot of that was new info to me.

The problem is, as I mentioned before, is my worldview about politics (and I pretty much stay as apolitical as the world will allow me). I see what Biden says, and I like the ideas of the political left. I spent pretty much all of my "disposable" income last year, even with insurance, because I had to have a tonsillectomy at age 30 (don't recommend). But I just don't know if they can get any of that implemented unfortunately. We'll see, and I hope I'm wrong

 

[Lacius]

I read through the links, and I'll admit that I didn't watch the primary debates so a lot of that was new info to me.

The problem is, as I mentioned before, is my worldview about politics (and I pretty much stay as apolitical as the world will allow me). I see what Biden says, and I like the ideas of the political left. I spent pretty much all of my "disposable" income last year, even with insurance, because I had to have a tonsillectomy at age 30 (don't recommend). But I just don't know if they can get any of that implemented unfortunately. We'll see, and I hope I'm wrong

A vote for Biden and votes for down-ballot Democratic candidates would increase the odds of having progressive ideas enacted.

 

[tpax]

Wow, a pedophile has the most votes on this poll. That's... interesting.