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The U.S. is more dangerously divided than any other wealthy democracy. Is there a way back from the brink? (Yascha Mounk)

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Creamu

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'[...]

Drawing on the Variety of Democracies (V-Dem) data set, published by an independent research institute in Sweden that covers 202 countries and goes back more than two centuries, its authors assess to what degree each country suffers from “pernicious” levels of partisan polarization. Do their citizens have such hostile views of opponents that they’re willing to act in ways that put democracy itself at risk?

The authors’ conclusion is startling: No established democracy in recent history has been as deeply polarized as the U.S. “For the United States,” Jennifer McCoy, the lead author of the study and a political-science professor at Georgia State University, told me in an interview, “I am very pessimistic.”

On virtually every continent, supporters of rival political camps are more likely to interact in hostile ways than they did a few decades ago. According to the Carnegie study, “us versus them polarization” has been increasing since 2005. McCoy and her colleagues don’t try to explain the causes, though the rise of social media is obviously a contributing factor.

[...]

Among countries whose political institutions have been relatively stable, the pace and extent of American polarization is an eye-popping outlier. “Very few countries classified as full liberal democracies have ever reached pernicious levels,” the study’s authors write. “The United States stands out today as the only wealthy Western democracy with persistent levels of pernicious polarization.” When I spoke by phone with McCoy, she was even more categorical: “The situation of the United States is unique.”

To live in a country where political disagreements turn into personal vendettas is no fun, but a growing body of research reveals more systemic effects. Pernicious polarization makes good-faith efforts to tackle social problems such as public-health crises harder and bad-faith efforts to turn them into political gain easier. At worst, an erosion of trust in democratic norms and political institutions can end up as political violence and civil war.

[...]

Unfortunately, the data in the Carnegie study do not offer much cause for optimism. About half of the time a country experienced serious polarization since 1900, mutual distrust and hatred turned into a permanent condition. Although political tensions waxed and waned, these countries never fell below the level of pernicious polarization for any extended period. And many countries never recovered. Once pernicious polarization has set in, it stays.

[...]

The fundamental premise of democracy is that citizens agree to be ruled by whoever wins an election. But if many citizens come to believe that letting the other side rule poses a threat to their well-being, even their lives, they may no longer be willing to accept the outcome of an election they lose. This makes it easier for demagogues to attract fervent supporters, and even to turn them against a country’s political institutions. The January 6, 2021, assault on the Capitol is just such a symptom of the malaise.

[...]

In many of the countries that have experienced pernicious polarization, partisan political identity aligns almost perfectly with visible markers of ethnic or religious identity. In Lebanon and Kenya, for example, it is enough to see or hear a person’s name to know which way they’re likely to vote. When polarization spikes in these places, supporters and opponents of a political candidate don’t just yell at each other; they withdraw from all social cooperation, and their animosity grows vengeful and deadly.

[...]

Soothsayers of doom are in demand for a reason. American partisan polarization has, without a doubt, reached a perilous level. But America’s comparative competence at managing its ethnic and religious diversity, which has so far ensured that partisan political identities do not neatly map onto demographic ones, could be a saving grace.

We urgently need visionary leaders and institutional reforms that can lower the stakes of political competition. Imagining what a depolarization of American politics would look like is not too difficult. The only problem is that America’s political partisans may already hate one another too much to take the steps necessary to avoid catastrophe.'

-Yascha Mounk

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https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/a...crat-republican-partisan-polarization/629925/
 

SRKTiberious

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When one party in this country moves so far to the right that they reject democracy in favor of authoritarianism, I would guess that's the problem.
Blaming the reaction to the problem again, I see.

Unlike you, normal people don't exactly think that you should be able to flash little kids in the street with police protection or murder and dismember children for the sole 'crime' of gestating.
 

Lacius

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Unlike you, normal people don't exactly think that you should be able to flash little kids in the street with police protection or murder and dismember children for the sole 'crime' of gestating.
A majority of people in the United States are in favor of LGBTQ rights, and a majority of people in the United States are in favor of women having bodily autonomy rights. If you aren't in favor of these things, then by some definitions, you're not the "normal" one.

It should go without saying, but I'm unaware of any political party in the US in favor of "flashing kids" or "murdering and dismembering children."

Blaming the reaction to the problem again, I see.
I like that you're trying to defend, not deny, that the political right in this country has become authoritarian and anti-democratic. Thank you for at least being honest.
 
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TraderPatTX

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When one party in this country moves so far to the right that they reject democracy in favor of authoritarianism, I would guess that's the problem.
Imagine thinking that sending an issue back to the states to be voted on by the representatives closest to the people as being authoritarian. Talk about emotional damage here.
 

Creamu

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Imagine thinking that sending an issue back to the states to be voted on by the representatives closest to the people as being authoritarian. Talk about emotional damage here.
I'm not sure that is the implication here. Don't you think that democracy has been falling out of favor in general?
 

TraderPatTX

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I'm not sure that is the implication here. Don't you think that democracy has been falling out of favor in general?
I think democracy fell out of favor when the Constitution was ratified, creating our republic. The republic has fallen out of favor with the left over the years because it blocks them from implementing their globalist agenda.
 

Creamu

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I think democracy fell out of favor when the Constitution was ratified, creating our republic. The republic has fallen out of favor with the left over the years because it blocks them from implementing their globalist agenda.
So your perspective is that the USA is not democratic but authoritarian left?
 

Xzi

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So your perspective is that the USA is not democratic but authoritarian left?
We'd have a lot more dead landlords if that was the case. Instead we don't even have universal healthcare like every other developed nation, let alone a leftist political party to vote for. As a correction, the US is a democratic republic, and the fact that TraderPat chooses to omit the first half just further proves that Republicans hate democracy. What they really want is oligarchy or dictatorship.
 

Creamu

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We'd have a lot more dead landlords if that was the case.
Because of the riots?
Instead we don't even have universal healthcare like every other developed nation, let alone a leftist political party to vote for.
What I don't understand is why open borders and universal healthcare are both associated with leftism? How can you advocate for both at the same time. It's very strange to me.
As a correction, the US is a democratic republic, and the fact that TraderPat chooses to omit the first half just further proves that Republicans hate democracy. What they really want is oligarchy or dictatorship.
'Third is growing uncertainty about the stability and value of democracy in the US. Most
Americans across the political spectrum now perceive a serious threat to democracy in the
US.5,6 At the same time, nearly 70% of adults—with very similar results for Democrats and
Republicans—agree that “American democracy only serves the interests of the wealthy and powerful.”
Approximately 20% of Republicans, conservatives, and voters for Donald Trump
(and 9% of Democrats, liberals, and voters for Joe Biden) disagree with the statement that
“democracy is [the] best form of government.”
https://gbatemp.net/threads/50-expe...gones-tori-b-powell-multiple-articles.616062/


It seems like 1/5 of Republicans don't believe in democracy yes, but alot of democrats (1/10) are also against the idea. With 15% of the populus you can overthrow a government (hypothetically speaking) if this segment collectivises and has will power.
 
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TraderPatTX

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So your perspective is that the USA is not democratic but authoritarian left?
The USA was founded as a republic. That's what all the Founders called it. They understood the dangers of a pure democracy, so they designed checks and balances to prevent tyranny of the majority.

As time passed, we as a country moved away from the Constitution. Courts started making rights out of whole cloth, the federal government took power away from the states and Congress gleefully gave their power to the administrative state. We are in the process of reversing that trend and giving power back to the states and the people where it belongs. That is why the left is all over the internet seething and crying. They crave a centralized authoritarian government.
 
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Creamu

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The USA was founded as a republic. That's what all the Founders called it. They understood the dangers of a pure democracy, so they designed checks and balances to prevent tyranny of the majority.

As time passed, we as a country moved away from the Constitution. Courts started making rights out of whole cloth, the federal government took power away from the states and Congress gleefully gave their power to the administrative state. We are in the process of reversing that trend and giving power back to the states and the people where it belongs. That is why the left is all over the internet seething and crying. They crave a centralized authoritarian government.
Very interesting. This question has occupied my mind for a while now, so much so that I have made this thread about the redistribution of power:
https://gbatemp.net/threads/roe-v-wade-solve-et-coagula-usa-meta-analysis.615114/

In a different thread I have put together articles that indicate that the populus is increasingly loosing believe in the current ruling class:
https://gbatemp.net/threads/50-expe...gones-tori-b-powell-multiple-articles.616062/

What is the idea here? I think they want to decentralize power, so it is harder to take the whole thing over in one move (hypothetically speaking). While they do this they want the single states so interdependent and disfuncional that they cannot secede.
 

TraderPatTX

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Very interesting. This question has occupied my mind for a while now, so much so that I have made this thread about the redistribution of power:
https://gbatemp.net/threads/roe-v-wade-solve-et-coagula-usa-meta-analysis.615114/

In a different thread I have put together articles that indicate that the populus is increasingly loosing believe in the current ruling class:
https://gbatemp.net/threads/50-expe...gones-tori-b-powell-multiple-articles.616062/

What is the idea here? I think they want to decentralize power, so it is harder to take the whole thing over in one move (hypothetically speaking). While they do this they want the single states so interdependent and disfuncional that they cannot secede.
The populous is losing faith in the ruling class because the ruling class and their sycophants in the media, Hollywood and academia have shown themselves to be against the people. I used to think they were just inept, but now I know all of this is on purpose. They tell us what they are gonna do and we're shocked when it actually happens. I'm not surprised anymore.

For decades, the "elite" have been talking about depopulation and we just shrugged it off. Now we have governments limiting fertilizer for farmers. We see how well that went in Sri Lanka when people started starving and now Trudeau is wanting to do the same in Canada and we see the farmers in the Netherlands fighting back. We are finally taking what the "elites" say at face value because we see now that they are serious.
 

Creamu

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The populous is losing faith in the ruling class because the ruling class and their sycophants in the media, Hollywood and academia have shown themselves to be against the people. I used to think they were just inept, but now I know all of this is on purpose. They tell us what they are gonna do and we're shocked when it actually happens. I'm not surprised anymore.

For decades, the "elite" have been talking about depopulation and we just shrugged it off. Now we have governments limiting fertilizer for farmers. We see how well that went in Sri Lanka when people started starving and now Trudeau is wanting to do the same in Canada and we see the farmers in the Netherlands fighting back. We are finally taking what the "elites" say at face value because we see now that they are serious.
Where do you see things moving within the coming 10 years. What would be a desirable outcome in your view, and what should be done to move in this direction?
 

SonowRaevius

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It only seemed like the US had together on the surface, but deep down there were problems and people causing those problems.

The division is still the same as it was decades ago, and if anything the right now using their old 1950-1980's playbook:
Call anyone that doesn't agree with you a socialist/communist
Call anyone of the LGBT+ community a pedophile/groomer.
Call white people to arms and tell them that they are being replaced by minorities.
Try to declare the US a Christian state based on false Christian views and ignore anyone else's Freedom of Religion.
Holding Rallies while donning white masks (ironic considering how many of the same people refused to wear a mask claiming "they couldn't breather")
Tell your base their rights are being stripped away, while stripping other people of rights.

The only thing that is different now than then is that people aren't willing to put up with that and the right, being the bullies that they are, are trying to declare they are "under attack" or "these people are trying to divide the nation" when in reality it is just people who are tired of their bullshit and aren't taking things sitting down. Not to mention that ANYONE that disagrees with one thing from them is now "a leftist/liberal".
 
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Creamu

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It only seemed like the US had together on the surface, but deep down there were problems and people causing those problems.
I would argue, that this division is a device in the toolbox of the powerful to rule of a populus
The division is still the same as it was decades ago, and if anything the right now using their old 1950-1980's playbook:
That it is interesting. From my reading they are going for a 1980s Ronald Reagan style script with Desantis next.
Call anyone that doesn't agree with you a socialist/communist
How common is that?
Call anyone of the LGBT+ community a pedophile/groomer.
To be fair, confronting children with sexualized themes is something that triggers defense mechanisms in many.
Call white people to arms and tell them that they are being replaced by minorities.
A demographic change is happening throughout the whole western world simultaneously. How can this be explained without human will?
Try to declare the US a Christian state based on false Christian views and ignore anyone else's Freedom of Religion.
I agree, the USA was never a christian project and it doesn't seem like it ever will be.
Holding Rallies while donning white masks (ironic considering how many of the same people refused to wear a mask claiming "they couldn't breather")
Tell your base their rights are being stripped away, while stripping other people of rights.

The only thing that is different now than then is that people aren't willing to put up with that and the right, being the bullies that they are, are trying to declare they are "under attack" or "these people are trying to divide the nation" when in reality it is just people who are tired of their bullshit and aren't taking things sitting down. Not to mention that ANYONE that disagrees with one thing from them is now "a leftist/liberal".
What would you suggest should be done with these people?
 
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SonowRaevius

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How common is that?
Pretty frequent. It's rather annoying when you suggest even remotely anything, even moderate suggestion to thing only to be called a commie/socialist for it.
To be fair, confronting children with sexualized themes is something that triggers defense mechanisms in many.
I can understand that, but there is a difference between attraction, love, and sex. The problem is some have an issue seperating those three. For instance, simply saying "Oh Timmy's dads are gay" is a lot different than "Timmy's dads like fuck each other". Though I think having "sexual" in the title muddles things a bit too much there, even with Asexuality, which has no sex involved at all.
A demographic change is happening throughout the whole western world simultaneously. How can this be explained without human will?
The thing is though, replacement would mean that those jobs were meant for certain people and not just whoever comes along. The people I am talking about in question think that all jobs where any minority is hired is a "Diversity Hire" and only got the job on the merit of them being a Minority and nothing more. That being said, demogaphic shifts are bound to happen when a society starts to become more equal and just, and view things as normal instead of "different", "abnormal", or "special".

What would you suggest should be done with these people?
Nothing as it is what it is and you can't force people to change their minds suddenly on a subject, and will only encourage them to simply put on a mask for society itself.
 
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