When is pirating ok? (discussion)

[Filipe C Bello dos Santos]

I am 25 and I am really into games... I don't say that i need them to survive but they are a big part of my life as I said...
Edit: And how the hell do they expect Wii U to sell when they price it for 320 Euro.... REALLY???? And not hacked yet wait for it to be hacked and price lowered and it will sell fine That is the reason 3DS hasn't sold a lot yet. Wait for its hack and you will see

In Brazil, the suggested retail price is US$595,00 (R$1.190,00) and Wii games are sell for U$75,00 (R$150,00). I think it's expensive.

Ok guys... I usually just read the topics and stuff, but ethics and moral are my thing (I study philosophy in college and shit) and I thought I could somehow add to this discussion (I've been reading it for some days, and really enjoying the discussion).
That being said, let's start...
By the moral point of view, off course pirating is wrong (and talking about personal moral is bs, since even the scholars on the subject not always agree on the concept of moral, but the only thing they usually do agree is that moral is a social moral code). Just cuz you are in reality using someone's work in a non-approved way.
That being said, we go to the ethics subject. Is it ethical to pirate? This can be a muddy and shady point to discuss, cuz ethic is a purely personal stand.
For example: I, as some other guys who are engaging in the discussion, happen to be Brazilian. In my case (and the guys will surely agree) I happen to be one of the most under paid workers in the country: I'm a teacher (English, to be a little more accurate). So, I usually have a reasonably low income to deal with every month, and, not just like to play VGs sometimes, but also end enduring some kind of moral pressure to understand and know something about the hypes and trends that are happening at that exactly moment, so I can make some king of dialog happen with my students.
A game in Brazil, IF i buy it by any legit mean (and I sometimes do), costs about 30 to 40% of my monthly income, and if I don't have access to the games, even my professional side can be (emphasis on the CAN part, cuz it's a possibility) hurt. So, I pirate.
I accept that, I understand that, I wish I could buy copies of everything, and more consoles, and whatever.
It's not right (in the moral point of view), it's not a necessity (but it can be an obstacle) in my means of living if I don't, and if I could, I would change it.

But as fucked up as Brazil is, there are worse places.

Take as example, IDK, Angola.

Usually a family has a very small income, and any electronic is some sort of social status, so parents will try it's hardest to buy a tv, and to buy a vg to their kids. But, what good comes from a console without a game? They can't afford games, and it IS morally right within their society to pirate stuff (in some cases, it's the only way to do it, since legit stuff usually doesn't even comes inside its borders).

Now, talking about discussion only, I've seen some BIG flaws on jimskeet2002's arguments. They are NOT logic in any means of the term.
NO, prices NEVER justify conterfeiting or pirating a product.
NO, a psychological need (AKA addiction) don't do it either.
For hell's sake, not even the lack of access to a given product justifies this.
TBH, NOTHING justifies this given behavior.

Off course, I'm not demanding raw logic from scholars from a fucking forum discussion on a videogame forum... but common sense, come on...
Yeah, you do it, I do it... We both wouldn't do it if the prices were lower, but they aren't.
I REALLY don't want you grieving with guilty, I don't want you to suffer, none of that.
But accepting that this is morally wrong IS just common sense.
Being OK with it, it's a whole different matter.
I'm OK with pirating, and why shouldn't I?
I can't afford it, in MY country they tax VGs the same as gambling, and more: even with a lot of civil pressure, they just DON'T want to help us.
The big companies don't care about our market (sony is the only one, besides a brazilian company that used to license SEGA) that is inside Brazil in VGs, and this after more than 10 long years (ok, ok, nintendo used to have a branch in here back in the SNES era, but nw is gone).
So yeah, if they don't care about us, we don't have any reason to care about them.

But two wrongs will never make a right.

I really like your statement. As i said before, there's a reason on everything we made, no one is saying that it justify an act.

But some people here really thinks that people are robots that cannot say why the pirate.

 

[Nurio]

I am amazed at how misinformed people are... If you think that what is going now in Greece, which is also going on in other European countries like Portugal, Italy, Spain etc etc is not planned for years you are very very wrong... Also what money do you give us? The money media tells you that you give us? As a loan to pay previous loans? So our debt just grows bigger and bigger??? And then later they will come to us and tell us... Well you can't pay us so we will take your petrol below Creta (estimated about 10 trillion dollars) and any other mineral deposits here in Greece, which according to a survey a geological institute(which was closed right after the survey, what a coincidence) here in Greece did are quite a lot... Oh and your salaries will go down to 300euro so we have a place to hold our factories with very low costs of production so we have more profit. But hey... you guys clearly put buttloads of money so you can save poor Greeks, right? Oh we thank you so much.
Before posting BS for issues that serious you should do a little research first. Just sayin

EDIT: And stop believing to what MEDIA and COMPANIES say. Everything you listen from them is a product of communication teams designed to satisfy their purposes... It is called manipulation of the masses and is going around for too long... You should know that allready

You said so many words, and yet all I could hear was "Conspiracy theory"
Yes, I do believe a lot of money went your way. These spendings were in the national financial report, and that's not something that you can call "false media".
That said, your argument contradicts itself. First you claim I shouldn't believe what the media tells me, and then next you base your argument on the fact that what the media tells us is true!
And even ignoring that fallacy, your argument is still paranoid at best. Do you honestly-to-goodness believe that we loaned you the money simply so we can extort stuff out of you? Don't you think we loan you money to save the euro from plummeting to its doom?

You make it sound as if nobody should've given Greece money. That you'd rather have your country go bankrupt than it to get saved by the other countries.

 

[jimskeet2002]

If the people didn't vote (thus allowing themselves the right of not giving a dam), and didn't show their unhappyness through action, well... the people deserve being fucked.

All in all, I think you're showing yourself as quite a sociopath, and quite a paranoid...

As I said there isn't any choice here... Any party you vote is the same shit... The fact that 40% of population didn't vote during such a crisis indicates that they are so disappointed from every single party that they don't believe in any of them. They showed their unhappiness by not going to vote all those idiots out there that are ruining our country.

Also where do I show myself as sociopath and paranoid, I can't understand.

You said so many words, and yet all I could hear was "Conspiracy theory"
Yes, I do believe a lot of money went your way. These spendings were in the national financial report, and that's not something that you can call "false media".
That said, your argument contradicts itself. First you claim I shouldn't believe what the media tells me, and then next you base your argument on the fact that what the media tells us is true!
And even ignoring that fallacy, your argument is still paranoid at best. Do you honestly-to-goodness believe that we loaned you the money simply so we can extort stuff out of you? Don't you think we loan you money to save the euro from plummeting to its doom?

You make it sound as if nobody should've given Greece money. That you'd rather have your country go bankrupt than it to get saved by the other countries.

Where did I contradict with myself? Where do I see conspiracy theories? Do you know that Germany is in profit from Greece's crisis?
You can read this if you want
http://griecheninwien.wordpress.com...-crisis-from-a-german-news-channel-reportage/
Also you can watch this video to see how a reporter from Irland (they are almost in as bad place as we are atm...) made the president of Central European Bank not be able to answer a simple question...
http://www.newsbomb.gr/blogs/story/139916/to-vinteo-poy-saronei-dimosiografos-kanei-rezili-trapeziti

And last when you will see people suicide every day around you for financial reasons you are free to come and talk to me about how I see conspiracy theories and how paranoid I am.

And no they shouldn't give us loans... They should create a marshal plan to save Greece (if they wanted to save Greece) as they did for Germany after world war 2...

 

[the_randomizer]

Lovely discussion we're having here.

 

[retKHAAAN]

I've learned a few things from this thread...

1) I can go to Toys R' Us and make molds of all the action figures without them leaving the store and the go home and make my own...

2) I can take my laptop and scanner to Barnes & Noble and scan every page of every book I want to read (or even think I might want to read one day, though I'd never get to them all).

3) I can take a video camera with me into a movie theater and not expect any reprocussions because the copy will be "for my own personal use".

Or...

All of those things violate copyright laws and regardless of my own personal "moral code of ethics" are considered wrong by the vast majority of the planet. Believe it or not, the opinions of the majority of gaming website/forum members =/= the opinions of the majority of people on the planet. One of the reasons laws exist is to keep morality out of the discussion.

 

[Rydian]

^ - What thread have you been reading?

 

[the_randomizer]

^ - What magic substance have you been toking?

Fixed that for ya.

 

[RodrigoDavy]

I've learned a few things from this thread...

1) I can go to Toys R' Us and make molds of all the action figures without them leaving the store and the go home and make my own... You would have a hard time making an action figure by yourself just using a mold and there is a cost implied. Regardless of that, if you want to make a doll (action figure your ass, be a man and admit you like dolls) that resembles one that already exists there's no harm, it's not seen as unacceptable at all. as long as you don't itend to sell it.

2) I can take my laptop and scanner to Barnes & Noble and scan every page of every book I want to read (or even think I might want to read one day, though I'd never get to them all). No, because the book is not yours. But, you could ask a friend who already have a book to lend you the book and then copy it. There's nothing wrong with that, or copying the question of a book in your notebook is now against the law too?

3) I can take a video camera with me into a movie theater and not expect any reprocussions because the copy will be "for my own personal use". Yes, you can and many people do that. It's not seen as unacceptable at all.

 

[JuStYn.Leandro]

I'm really sure that some people in here don't have any idea that there's a thing called law...

 

[Skyb]

Hi Guys,

I'm going to be rude but i don't give a f... to the editor point or some hackers that play with times or any piracy things.
So let me tell you something... i was a developper only few years ago working with one of the biggest company of video games, they show me that they don't even care at all about development game or customer complaign
what they want is making business, we are working less now than in the past with a minimum of budget to make more money and not anymore excitment of playing games... releasing games that is not even finish or DLC that was the part of the game in the beginning, making money is more important for us.

You should open your eyes and see what's going on, the editor control how you play, what that mean ?

The Control Editor Project
Make a max of money
Force people to buy games
push up the price of the games
stop the used game sell
connect the platform to the editor server
spy and log every customer action
force them to update
link every game to one console
no demo, only full game (Partial Game + DLC + SDLC, sell by part) available that you need to pay
even the game suck, you can't sell it because is locked to your own video game console
etc...
I stop to work and deal with that type of company when i start to know the real plan... so today you are not important, you are just stupid for them, so you make free commercial pub for them, you talk and battle for them and you pay them to make a worst game that was made in less than 2month with few budget and the rest for the boss that don't even know what is a game and what is a good game or good price.

You know that they don't care about piracy, they even play other backup game from another company that never authorize to them to play the game too...
so seriously stop with your fuc... piracy point or hacking point, you want a better world, boycott, stop following like a sheep and release your work when you can, don't wait that a editor or dev make action, do it before is late... that all.
i know the video game world as i know my pocket, so believe me, they don't care about what you saying or what you doing... they just care about money.

You know that they use same crappy code, old physic/3D Engine again and again (even use open source stuff to make game that cost more than 60$ for few work they did on it)
Script based on another game
Engine already exist (just port the map/character on it)
take some music from different artist
pay less few people to script everythings... (or use a pre script program that just point A->B)

same as music industry (take song from other or just pay less amateur song maker and put just few lyrics, you have a tube that cost 20$, take a bankable artist to push up the price for nothing)

I'm not going to complaign about the society but who you are to judge about piracy crap and co... you know that piracy make the best deal and make better the communication between editor/customer (one who talk to another one who talk with another one without making a commercial tv spot) piracy make access to different culture, they play with piracy and you defend them and say your piracy is not good... seriously grow up and stop thinking that the world is pink...
piracy was always everywhere and always existed, it's not from yesterday and it never made any problem, the problem came from the society (job, salary and co...) a dev don't win so much money.... everythings go to the boss and company... so what is your big deal about let save company by stopping piracy... even everybody around the world stop piracy it would change anything... because paying a high price with less work for a immaterial structure doesn't help your life at all.

For me a real piracy, it's selling a appartment 1000x the real value
what is piracy, it's play with the life of people, so people go to hospital, doesn't have paper can die just here in the front of the door ?...

It's funny because people talk about law.. when this law was made by human being... that all... stop defending human that write a law doesn't make any sense or was not good for the society...

Now be happy that many store close because of the editor that push the price up and try to attack the used game... be happy to live on the world of immaterial stuff that you use all you health to win money and try to buy a product that you can really have...

It's so stupid that so many people are so dumb and follow everything like i sheep, editor tell you piracy is not good or the law say it when other law say the inverse.. anyway you will go nowhere thinking like that and you forget about defending human liberty... no one on the earth can judge anyone, we are nothing and we are here temporary... so why losing time with stuff like that

Piracy is nothing good or bad... it doesn't exist.. we call that sharing not piracy.. if we want to share the product that we buy, like a law say, you can share it as the first license was already selled with the package.. and any company doesn't have the power to block you of doing that... also it doesn't make any sense as is part of the life and cultural share

If you like to defend wrong stuff it's hope to you by on my dev point that was working on the video game company and now movie company, so i know exactly what this world of business bring and what many company want from you... go understand why the euro money is going bad, why have many revolt...it's because nothing was working as a equitable share... so everybody will go poor everyday and that will have nothing to do with piracy ! remember that piracy = numeric share... numeric doesn't cost anything than time... you pay already everything, have nothing free and you even pay piracy by using bandwith and co...

Stop to be blind and wake up before is late... if you accept everything and buy game that cost and include no real work... they will continue like that and lock you into a new generation of support that you will never have the possibility to share...

A day they will sell free imagination kid game (already did)

 

[retKHAAAN]

^ - What thread have you been reading?

Isn't this the thread about using someone's copyrighted, intellectual property without their expressed permission (which only requires you pay them for it)? If not, I'll excuse myself.

I'm really sure that some people in here don't have any idea that there's a thing called law...

It's not that they don't believe in law as much as they seem to think they can have whatever they want whenever they want it. Makes me proud to be an American seeing the American dream spreading to countries throughout the world.


I'm also learning that the longer the post here, the more ridiculous the claims.

 

[Rydian]

Isn't this the thread about using someone's copyrighted, intellectual property without their expressed permission (which only requires you pay them for it)? If not, I'll excuse myself.

But what does your post have to do with this thread?

 

[Filipe C Bello dos Santos]

It's not that they don't believe in law as much as they seem to think they can have whatever they want whenever they want it. Makes me proud to be an American seeing the American dream spreading to countries throughout the world.

ow man, now that thread will turn into a political war.

 

[retKHAAAN]

But what does your post have to do with this thread?

I'm just looking for more things to pirate since it's apparently okay.

 

[Just Another Gamer]

I'm just looking for more things to pirate since it's apparently okay.

And its not okay because?

The law regarding this is vague depending where you live and this really just goes down to if you think piracy is morally wrong or not and its pretty bloody obvious that those who pirate know the law technically says its wrong but without any real way to enforce it, it then becomes whether you feel guilty or have some weird ass morals to say its bad.

 

[retKHAAAN]

And its not okay because?

The law regarding this is vague depending where you live and this really just goes down to if you think piracy is morally wrong or not and its pretty bloody obvious that those who pirate know the law technically says its wrong but without any real way to enforce it, it then becomes whether you feel guilty or have some weird ass morals to say its bad.

Well...you got me dude. Piracy is okay because you say it's okay. It's the copyright owners' and the governments of numerous nations' "weird ass morals" that define the law... Those silly humans, thinking they know what is or isn't acceptable behavior in respecting what people do for a living.

 

[Just Another Gamer]

Well...you got me dude. Piracy is okay because you say it's okay. It's the copyright owners' and the governments of numerous nations' "weird ass morals" that define the law... Those silly humans, thinking they know what is or isn't acceptable behavior in respecting what people do for a living.

You obviously didn't read my post so to cater to your ignorance i'll say it again. The law says its wrong however with no real way to enforce that law it usually goes down to the people and do pirates care about these moral and rich companies? I highly doubt it. Does it make it legal? No but it will it make people think twice before not giving money to the big rich companies who make the product? No.

 

[Senbei Norimaki]

I don't get my morals from the government, especially a government that says it is morally right to abort a baby.

 

[Just Another Gamer]

I don't get my morals from the government, especially a government that says it is morally right to abort a baby.

Thats a really bad example since a lot logical people are pro abortion.

 

[Senbei Norimaki]

Not to me its not. Aborting your own child is a lot worst than piracy, prostitution, or using drugs but the government says it is morally right. I don't look to my government for morals. Most of the time the government only cares about corporations and special interest groups.