Oculus Rift Confirmed To Be Not Supporting Consoles

Kirito-kun

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Please read up about so-called "dark silicon" which will explain to you why these projections are bullshit. Continue posting off-topic and face reports. :)

People would have though it was BS going from Tegra 4 to Tegra 5 with a 4x increase in power before Nvidia confirmed. Also, you changed your initial reply, you said originally it was invalid because the PS4 is more powerful than the Wii U.

And don't forget that on the CPU side, mobile is already halfway between the Wii U and PS4. CPU also contributes to gaming performance.
 

Foxi4

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People would have though it was BS going from Tegra 4 to Tegra 5 with a 4x increase in power before Nvidia confirmed. Also, you changed your initial reply, you said originally it was invalid because the PS4 is more powerful than the Wii U.

And don't forget that on the CPU side, mobile is already halfway between the Wii U and PS4. CPU also contributes to gaming performance.
The reason why the switch from Tegra 4 to Tegra 5 yeilded such a huge performance increase was that the chip architecture was completely replaced with a "mobile" version of a PC GPU - this fast pace of progress is going to slow down whether you like it or not.

Additionally, like I explained to you a quadrillion of times, the GPU's will not run at their maximum values when placed in an actual mobile implementation - they're going to run at half the speed at best because you can't implement fans or radiators into thin mobile devices.

You're getting excited over results reached in a laboratory environment - your pocket is not a laboratory.

The truth of the matter is that the only thing the Oculus requires to run is multi-monitor support - that's it. It's not resource-hungry, so let's not pretend that computing power is the issue here because it isn't.
 

Kirito-kun

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The truth of the matter is that the only thing the Oculus requires to run is multi-monitor support - that's it. It's not resource-hungry, so let's not pretend that computing power is the issue here because it isn't.

The Oculus requires the video output to be in stereoscopic 3D at 60 FPS and at a high resolution to prevent headaches. PS4 and Xbox One struggle and sometimes fail to output 2D visuals at 1080p and 60 FPS. So it's probably the issue here, unless you have an alternative?
 

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The Oculus requires the video output to be in stereoscopic 3D at 60 FPS and at a high resolution to prevent headaches. PS4 and Xbox One struggle and sometimes fail to output 2D visuals at 1080p and 60 FPS. So it's probably the issue here, unless you have an alternative?

You do realize that the stereoscopy effect is easy to achieve for the Oculus since the two resulting sources are at a smaller resolution, the framerate isn't fixed to 60 as you claim and 1080p isn't required? :)

The Oculus Rift accepts images to two displays, it runs at 640x480x2, which is the equivalent of a single display running at 1280x978, which is significantly less than 1080p (1920×1080). Both the PS4 and the XBox One can render in this resolution in-between naps.

You're also acting as if stereoscopic 3D was a huge power drain - it isn't, it's just displacing one of the displays a little to produce the illusion of depth. The PS3 does it, the 3DS does it, for some reason you're imagining that next gen's can't.
 

Kirito-kun

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You do realize that the stereoscopy effect is easy to achieve for the Oculus since the two resulting sources are at a smaller resolution, the framerate isn't fixed to 60 as you claim and 1080p isn't required? :)

The Oculus Rift renders at 640x480x2, which is the equivalent of 1280x978, which is less than 1080p (1920×1080). Both the PS4 and the XBox One can render in this resolution in-between naps.

People report headaches while using the Rift at sub-60 FPS at any extended amount of time. And that's just the dev-kit which is sub-1080p. The low resoltion of the dev kit is something people complained about. The consumer version is confirmed to be in full 1080p, with a 4K variant coming soon. I'd really like to see the consoles try to drive a 4K panel.
 
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Foxi4

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People report headaches while using the Rift at sub-60 FPS at any extended amount of time. And that's just the dev-kit which is sub-1080p. The low resoltion of the dev kit is something people complained about. The consumer version is confirmed to the in full 1080p, with a 4K variant coming soon. I'd really like to see the consoles try to drive a 4K panel.

It's called built-in scaler. You don't need to render at 4K to display 4K.
 

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It's called built-in scaler. You don't need to render at 4K to display 4K.

720p video up-scaled on a 4K panel is just as pixelated as 720p video on a 720p panel. If people complained about the low resolution of the Rift dev kit, they'll complain just as much with 720p output on a 4K Rift.
 

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720p video up-scaled on a 4K panel is just as pixelated as 720p video on a 720p panel. If people complained about the low resolution of the Rift dev kit, they'll complain just as much with 720p output on a 4K Rift.

I can't wait till the world will stop collectively circle-jerking about two LCD displays stuck in a headset, because that's all the Oculus Rift is. It's not a massive breakthrough in graphics, it's just an application of well-known technology with considerably better parts.

As I mentioned earlier, as it stands today, both mobile phones and consoles have enough "juice" to support it, plain and simple. You're free to disagree with me if you like, but the facts speak against you' I'm afraid.

All the XBox One and the PS4 would have to do to reach the 1080p requirement would be rendering for two displays - no more, no less. It wouldn't be rocket science. If Oculus users "feel sick" at sub-60FPS then they have to be violently vomiting in cinemas which run movies at 24FPS (recently also 48FPS, but people complain about that). They're feeling sick because the display is right in their face, not due to the framerate.
 

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Mobile phones are powerful enough to support Rift, so I'm gonna call bullshit on his statement.

The question is not if they can handle the graphical distortion so that the Rift can be used, but whether they provide the ideal output quality for virtual reality. Resolution and frame-rate (and latency, but I don't think that's the issue here) become much more important when dealing with virtual reality versus TV. Basically, you are going to want 1080p resolution at a constant 60 frames per second at the minimum. The hardware for these consoles is set in stone, so whatever basically for the next 5-7 years, they'll be stuck at the current hardware levels and most of the games on them will not be capable of meeting the resolution and framerate requirements.

As for Mobile Phones, while John Carmack did say that Android could be in the future of the Oculus Rift, I seem to recall being told that it would be several years away. At least if they worked on Android support now, even if it wasn't the ideal platform currently, the work would not be put to waste as newer more capable hardware came to the android platform. With consoles, however, they'd pretty much have to start over again when the next generation decided to come out that would finally be ideal for the Oculus.
 

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The Oculus requires the video output to be in stereoscopic 3D at 60 FPS and at a high resolution to prevent headaches. PS4 and Xbox One struggle and sometimes fail to output 2D visuals at 1080p and 60 FPS. So it's probably the issue here, unless you have an alternative?

You're basing the "ps4 and xbox one struggle" statement based on launch games. That isn't an accurate assessment at all. You gotta let developers get used to the hardware. I mean look what happened, people thought Perfect Dark Zero was fantastic and games couldn't look better. Couple years down the road, and everybody was proven wrong.
 

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You're basing the "ps4 and xbox one struggle" statement based on launch games. That isn't an accurate assessment at all. You gotta let developers get used to the hardware. I mean look what happened, people thought Perfect Dark Zero was fantastic and games couldn't look better. Couple years down the road, and everybody was proven wrong.

It's because with the beginning of every generation of consoles, the devs aren't used to coding for the new hardware, as consoles have always had exotic architectures. This generation, the consoles are both x86 based, meaning programming techniques aren't much different from PC game development (ie: no cell processor to learn). No excuses this time.
 

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It's because with the beginning of every generation of consoles, the devs aren't used to coding for the new hardware, as consoles have always had exotic architectures. This generation, the consoles are both x86 based, meaning programming techniques aren't much different from PC game development (ie: no cell processor to learn). No excuses this time.

Yes.. there is an excuse.
 

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It's because with the beginning of every generation of consoles, the devs aren't used to coding for the new hardware, as consoles have always had exotic architectures. This generation, the consoles are both x86 based, meaning programming techniques aren't much different from PC game development (ie: no cell processor to learn). No excuses this time.

That's a load of bollocks, likely coming from someone who's never coded anything at all and/or knows very little about how it's done.

Console games have been programmed in standardized languages, most notably C and C++, on pre-made SDK's since the fifth generation, meaning for the last 16-17 years. With the rise of DirectX and OpenGL, customized graphics libraries became a thing of the past as well.

"Exotic architectures" had f*ck-all to do with the actual process of programming a video game, platform-specific functionality was always given appropriate wrappers to avoid using microcode at all costs and "finding out about them" was a matter of studying a couple examples and reading through the SDK's manual to learn some key functions and addresses - not rocket science. The only "exotic-ness" of console development comes from using "console SDK's" which have "console function sets", but this has nothing to do with the architecture used.

The only instances when microcode was used was when the coders wanted to squeeze some extra performance or use some hardware functionality that the makers of the SDK didn't think of, this is the case with Rareware's Nintendo 64 games. Sony took it a little too far with the CELL by pretty much forcing coders to write microcode for SPE's. They did not respond favorably, mostly because they never had to do this before and the SDK was gradually being updated to move away from this approach or simplify it which brought better games in the long run.

A change in the architecture is not changing anything at all - x86_64 can also accept microcode and will accept microcode if the developers see fit to use it. You're talking as if consoles were some weird unicorns in comparison to other devices when they really aren't. The use of a PC-like architecture doesn't change the status quo - Mac coders didn't use microcode and yet they coded for computers based on the "exotic" PowerPC architecture, smartphone coders didn't (and don't) use microcode very often and yet they coded for devices based on "exotic" MIPS and ARM chips. On the other end of the spectrum we have NO$GBA which is a DS emulator written almost exclusively in x86 Assembly.

Console coders do because console coders have to keep up with the times without the option to upgrade the hardware.

Moreover, both the XBox One's and the PlayStation 4's APU's have built-in customized silicon just like any other console does and these custom CPU components will result in custom features, differentiating the systems from the PC standard. All that changed was the architecture, not the approach.
 

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Im fine with playing my games on my big o'l dino T.V. Either way i ware glasses so it would be weird to have a field of view that big and taking off my glasses would make every thing look like lifes resolution lowered its self.
Even if the ps4 or xbox are similar to pc architecture, isn't it different because on a pc you code one game and if your hardware is good enough you can run it on all pc's
but with consoles such as ps4 something else has to be done. Either way i dont know and don't care about this, maybe this will be a bigger thing in the future for every one but there are other things worth focusing on more.
 

Kirito-kun

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That's a load of bollocks, likely coming from someone who's never coded anything at all and/or knows very little about how it's done.

Console games have been programmed in standardized languages, most notably C and C++, on pre-made SDK's since the fifth generation, meaning for the last 16-17 years. With the rise of DirectX and OpenGL, customized graphics libraries became a thing of the past as well.

"Exotic architectures" had f*ck-all to do with the actual process of programming a video game, platform-specific functionality was always given appropriate wrappers to avoid using microcode at all costs and "finding out about them" was a matter of studying a couple examples and reading through the SDK's manual to learn some key functions and addresses - not rocket science. The only "exotic-ness" of console development comes from using "console SDK's" which have "console function sets", but this has nothing to do with the architecture used.

The only instances when microcode was used was when the coders wanted to squeeze some extra performance or use some hardware functionality that the makers of the SDK didn't think of, this is the case with Rareware's Nintendo 64 games. Sony took it a little too far with the CELL by pretty much forcing coders to write microcode for SPE's. They did not respond favorably, mostly because they never had to do this before and the SDK was gradually being updated to move away from this approach or simplify it which brought better games in the long run.

A change in the architecture is not changing anything at all - x86_64 can also accept microcode and will accept microcode if the developers see fit to use it. You're talking as if consoles were some weird unicorns in comparison to other devices when they really aren't. The use of a PC-like architecture doesn't change the status quo - Mac coders didn't use microcode and yet they coded for computers based on the "exotic" PowerPC architecture, smartphone coders didn't (and don't) use microcode very often and yet they coded for devices based on "exotic" MIPS and ARM chips. On the other end of the spectrum we have NO$GBA which is a DS emulator written almost exclusively in x86 Assembly.

Console coders do because console coders have to keep up with the times without the option to upgrade the hardware.

Moreover, both the XBox One's and the PlayStation 4's APU's have built-in customized silicon just like any other console does and these custom CPU components will result in custom features, differentiating the systems from the PC standard. All that changed was the architecture, not the approach.

Firstly, I have moderate programming knowledge in C#, Java, and Python under Windows and Linux. I'm not a console developer and haven't spent time looking into console development as my opinion of the platform is quite negative.

Yes, the upcoming consoles do not have completely standard PC silicon. However, their ISAs should be significantly similar to that of x86 PCs. If the devs want to write low-level code, it would be much easier than doing so on the PS3, when they were first introduced to the Cell. From my knowledge, console devs do often write low-level code for better optimization, which explains why consoles are able to run games better than a PC with equivalent specs. The 8th gen systems would therefore take less time for to learn to optimize for the platform. This is why I'm assuming the launch titles are already fairly well optimized, therefore demonstrating the weakness of the hardware due to poor performance in launch titles.
 

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Firstly, I have moderate programming knowledge in C#, Java, and Python under Windows and Linux. I'm not a console developer and haven't spent time looking into console development as my opinion of the platform is quite negative.

Yes, the upcoming consoles do not have completely standard PC silicon. However, their ISAs should be significantly similar to that of x86 PCs. If the devs want to write low-level code, it would be much easier than doing so on the PS3, when they were first introduced to the Cell. From my knowledge, console devs do often write low-level code for better optimization, which explains why consoles are able to run games better than a PC with equivalent specs. The 8th gen systems would therefore take less time for to learn to optimize for the platform. This is why I'm assuming the launch titles are already fairly well optimized, therefore demonstrating the weakness of the hardware due to poor performance in launch titles.

You mention optimization in your code, and yes, that is one of the instances when microcode is used and one of the reasons why launch games always had poor performance on any platform in the history of ever - because the SDK-specific functionality and the microcode have to be mastered to efficiently optimize for a given platform. Developers do not have any practice whatsoever with the SDK's yet, hence performance is "basic" - it can be boosted.

You also equate the next gen systems to PC's again, thinking that this helps matters - it doesn't. The low-level code will be similar to that on a PC, but that doesn't mean that developers will have no problems optimizing the games simply because PC's were never the primary target for developers - more often than not, cross-platform releases are not optimized for PC, rather copy-pasted into the compiler for the sake of a quick release. Developers will have to learn how to microcode on x86_64 because they never had to do it before.
 

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Also, launch games are usually made on a very short, tight schedule in order to meet the launch deadline. Take the Wii U's launch; if I remember correctly, some of those titles were made in nine months or so.

Pretty graphics are great, but developers don't have much time for optimization. They just have to get the thing into shippable shape as quickly as possible.

I mean, I know it's fun to shit on, say, the Xbone's launch titles (like Dead Rising 3 not even reaching 30 fps, constantly falling to 16 fps), but it's hardly fair. Now, if Xbox One titles continue to have this problem 1-2 years after launch, then yeah, we have a serious problem. Until then, it's a tad bit too early to start digging the grave.
 
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