U.S. Supreme Court set to overturn Roe v. Wade abortion rights decision

JaapDaniels · May 28, 2022

Haloman800 said:
Rape and incest is less than 1% of abortions. For the sake of argument, if we said "you can murder your unborn child if they are the product of rape/incest", are you on board with protecting the life of the other 99%?

Let me guess, you aren't. So stop bringing up "rape" as an excuse to justify murdering unborn children.

1 percent, sorry sir, it's way higher than 1%, not even 25% of the victims ever talk about it, going for justice. most victims of incest feel ashamed, still feel love towards the perpetrator or are to affraid of what it means for the rest of the family.
For those who got raped it also ain't 100% go for justice, some feel too ashamed to talk about it, some don't know whether it was rape for they didn't stop the perpetrator.
those who got forced in to sex are high percentages, but it's not rape for they start it themselves for they need thier shot of whatever, or thier friend/husband comes up with the sad story it's his only way out of overdue bills.
think of the childeren not going to have a father, think of the childeren not getting any love from either parents.
not all pregnants are good for the child within the mothers womb.
if the mother is in the state of mind now, so far off she wants to terminate the child, knowing full well that she will always have to live with the feelings of not beeing a mother of it... if she's at that point killing a dream now, she's not gonna love that child.
so chances go way up for this going to be so called saved child of yours is going to be the next school shooter.
so you get to choose for saving an unwanted blob of flesh and maybe blood with the high chance of dealing with a lot of broken families later, or killing this one dream, and maybe one adults dream.

MicroNut99 · May 28, 2022

tabzer said:
Because the topic is interesting. I didn't realize this was the place for people to gather and decide how to regulate women's pregnancies.

No, I mean why are you here?
Seriously, the topic is clear as a bell.

tabzer said:
It's a challenge for him to present my alleged condemnation.

I won't condemn you, outright.

tabzer said:
Consent was a major difference that I pointed out between two scenarios. If you want to make an argument that something is like slavery, you are going to have to be more specific. As far as I can tell, you are suggesting that outlawing abortion parallels sex slavery. Is that what you mean?

The Handmaid's Tale is a strong reference to all of the above. The story covers most of the sick nuances involved.
To be direct its human slavery with the twist that it could only ever apply to half the population.
btw I have made my pro-choice position clear many times.
Right or Wrong its not our choice to make. The Woman, her doctors and immediate family members and... that's it.
Insight into the future and the specific details of every women's situation the law must have.
Big hearts and Broad shoulders it must take to harbor the burden of the choice from the greatest of distances.
The most intimate of acts regulated by the most disinterested of parties.
Sounds like slavery to me.

tabzer · May 29, 2022

MicroNut99 said:
No, I mean why are you here?
Seriously, the topic is clear as a bell.

Do you want to give me a list of answers that are acceptable to you? I thought I was pretty clear about my lack of capacity to decide laws regarding the subject. The topic indicates this of federal government, too.

MicroNut99 said:
I won't condemn you, outright.

Find a subtle condemnation then.

MicroNut99 said:
The Handmaid's Tale is a strong reference to all of the above. The story covers most of the sick nuances involved.
To be direct its human slavery with the twist that it could only ever apply to half the population.
btw I have made my pro-choice position clear many times.
Right or Wrong its not our choice to make. The Woman, her doctors and immediate family members and... that's it.
Insight into the future and the specific details of every women's situation the law must have.
Big hearts and Broad shoulders it must take to harbor the burden of the choice from the greatest of distances.
The most intimate of acts regulated by the most disinterested of parties.
Sounds like slavery to me.

Yes, a literary work may cover a myriad of themes. What's the argument or analogy? To say that outlawing (or restricting) abortion is on par with slavery lacks perspective. You can argue that limiting options is a step in the direction of (an implicit) slavery. However, the act of forcing someone to become pregnant and carry to term is not the same as denying access to an abortion, and that's why I am asking you to clarify.

MicroNut99 said:
Right or Wrong its not our choice to make. The Woman, her doctors and immediate family members and... that's it.

So you think immediate family members and doctors should be able to decide what the woman can and cannot do with her body. That's interesting.

MicroNut99 · May 29, 2022

tabzer said:
Do you want to give me a list of answers that are acceptable to you? I thought I was pretty clear about my lack of capacity to decide laws regarding the subject. The topic indicates this of federal government, too.

No.
Someone made the choice to have you... right?
Maybe was a planned choice or not... I will never know and its not my place to know.

tabzer said:
Find a subtle condemnation then.

I did that.

tabzer said:
Yes, a literary work may cover a myriad of themes. What's the argument or analogy? To say that outlawing (or restricting) abortion is on par with slavery lacks perspective. You can argue that limiting options is a step in the direction of (an implicit) slavery. However, the act of forcing someone to become pregnant and carry to term is not the same as denying access to an abortion, and that's why I am asking you to clarify.

I did clarify. Forcing someone to carry is slavery of the body to an ideal or set of restrictive laws that can never be met. I've outlined exactly why in my argument.

tabzer said:
So you think immediate family members and doctors should be able to decide what the woman can and cannot do with her body. That's interesting.

Out of context and out of line.
In order of importance I've listed the Women first.... so fuck you for implying otherwise. (a direct condemnation btw)
MicroNut99 said:
Right or Wrong its not our choice to make. The Woman, her doctors and immediate family members and... that's it.

tabzer · May 29, 2022

MicroNut99 said:
No.
Someone made the choice to have you... right?
Maybe was a planned choice or not... I will never know and its not my place to know.

Then why ask?

MicroNut99 said:
I did that.

Great. Please point out where.

MicroNut99 said:
I did clarify. Forcing someone to carry is slavery of the body to an ideal a set of laws that can never be met. I've outlined exactly why in my argument.

"Forcing someone to carry" as slavery is loaded and doesn't address the appeal to accountability for willfully getting pregnant in the first place. It's a real argument that you are failing to address. If you think women shouldn't be accountable for their pregnancies, you can honestly say that and one can honestly disagree. As an analogy to slavery, it doesn't capture the concerns addressed; so it falls short.

MicroNut99 said:
Out of context and out of line.
In order of importance I've listed the Women first.... so fuck you for implying otherwise. (a direct condemnation btw)
MicroNut99 said:
Right or Wrong its not our choice to make. The Woman, her doctors and immediate family members and... that's it.

I'm still not sure why you are including anyone other than the woman. Are you suggesting that it's an immediate community thing? Save your outrage.

Dark_Ansem · May 29, 2022

tabzer said:
"Forcing someone to carry" as slavery is loaded and doesn't address the appeal to accountability for willfully getting pregnant in the first place.

The only case in which you willfully get pregnant is when both partners say "We want a child". End of. Anything else it's your usual mysoginist nonsense.

tabzer · May 29, 2022

Dark_Ansem said:
The only case in which you willfully get pregnant is when both partners say "We want a child". End of. Anything else it's your usual mysoginist nonsense.

I think you are overestimating how assertive a male's role is in a woman's pregnancy. Are you suggesting that the partner should have a say over whether or not a woman should have an abortion, if they did not verbally consent to her getting pregnant?

Also, if pregnancy is an expected outcome of having sex, how is it not consent to getting pregnant?

Dark_Ansem · May 29, 2022

tabzer said:
Are you suggesting that the partner should have a say over whether or not a woman should have an abortion, if they did not verbally consent to her getting pregnant?

As I already said in a different post which you obviously didn't read, they already have a say but, for the better or the worse, they can't enforce their will. What should be possible, however, is paternity refusal, as in "You wanted a baby and I didn't. and despite my precautions you still got pregnant? You're on your own".

But as I said in my other post, usually this behaviour is a crime known as stealthing, which is exceedingly difficult to prove unless the one who carried it out confesses.

tabzer · May 29, 2022

Dark_Ansem said:
As I already said in a different post which you obviously didn't read, they already have a say but, for the better or the worse, they can't enforce their will. What should be possible, however, is paternity refusal, as in "You wanted a baby and I didn't. and despite my precautions you still got pregnant? You're on your own".

If words have no weight in the decision making process, how is it that "having a say"? If a couple were particularly lazy about taking precautions during sex, and the woman wants to support a resulting pregnancy while the partner doesn't, would it be reasonable to argue "you wanted a baby and I didn't" as a means to bow out of supporting the child?

Dark_Ansem said:
But as I said in my other post, usually this behaviour is a crime known as stealthing, which is exceedingly difficult to prove unless the one who carried it out confesses.

I'm not rationalizing any degrees of rape or intentional deception.

Dark_Ansem · May 29, 2022

tabzer said:
f words have no weight in the decision making process, how is it that "having a say"

Didn't say they have no weight. I said they have no power of compulsion (in a healthy, non-abusive relationship).

tabzer said:
If a couple were particularly lazy about taking precautions during sex, and the woman wants to keep a resulting pregnancy and the partner doesn't, would it be reasonable to argue "you wanted a baby and I didn't" as a means to bow out of supporting the child?

Not the example I made, so stop moving the goalposts. Also, how do you define "lazy precautions"? Ogino-knaus or basal body temperature are real techniques, not 100% accurate but no contraception is 100% accurate.

tabzer · May 29, 2022

Dark_Ansem said:
Didn't say they have no weight. I said they have no power of compulsion (in a healthy, non-abusive relationship).

I said that they have no weight on the decision to have an abortion. "They have a say" is just a platitude, empty in context of "rights".

Dark_Ansem said:
Not the example I made, so stop moving the goalposts.

It's an example I made. You don't have to answer. You introduced this idea of being able to deny paternal support. I want clarity on it. If a woman getting pregnant is a reasonable expectation of having sex, should the male partner be able to bow out of paying child support if he doesn't want to maintain it?

smf · May 29, 2022

tabzer said:
And I'm not. Understand?

Not really, if you are so closed minded you don't want to discuss something then why are you spending so much time in a thread discussing it?

smf · May 29, 2022

tabzer said:
If a woman getting pregnant is a reasonable expectation of having sex, should the male partner be able to bow out of paying child support if he doesn't want to maintain it?

For most couples trying to conceive, the odds that a woman will become pregnant are 15% to 25% in any particular month.

Odds seem low. Maybe child support should be paid based on number of attempts, rather than it being a lottery.

Dark_Ansem · May 29, 2022

tabzer said:
If a woman getting pregnant is a reasonable expectation of having sex, should the male partner be able to bow out of paying child support if he doesn't want to maintain it?

Again, I already told you your nonsensical ideas about "reasonable expectations" isn't up for debate. Reasonable expectations aren't certainties and certainly they can't be taken as expressions of consent. Stop moving the goalposts.

tabzer said:
If a couple were particularly lazy about taking precautions during sex, and the woman wants to support a resulting pregnancy while the partner doesn't, would it be reasonable to argue "you wanted a baby and I didn't" as a means to bow out of supporting the child?

And I already told you to define "lazy precautions".

tabzer · May 29, 2022

Seems like you guys really don't want to pay paternity, and it looks like the burden of birth control (or abortion) falls on the women. I think I'm satiated with your responses. Thanks.

smf said:
if you are so closed minded you don't want to discuss something then why are you spending so much time in a thread discussing it?

I haven't been nor am I interested in discussion about how the legal window for abortion should or could be decreased. I don't pretend that I am in an position to decide.

Dark_Ansem · May 29, 2022

tabzer said:
Seems like you guys really don't want to pay paternity, and it looks like the burden of birth control (or abortion) falls on the women. I think I'm satiated with your responses. Thanks.

Not at all but hey, lying is your forte.

tabzer · May 29, 2022

Dark_Ansem said:
Not at all but hey, lying is your forte.

Not seeing the disagreement. At best, a misdirection.

Dark_Ansem · May 29, 2022

tabzer said:
Not seeing the disagreement. At best, a misdirection.

Again, from you. As usual.

tabzer · May 29, 2022

Dark_Ansem said:
Again, from you. As usual.

You can disagree with me saying it out loud, but you even leave that much too ambiguous.

Would you try to convince a partner you impregnated, by accident (per your own measure, reason be damned), to get an abortion because you don't want to be responsible for a child?

I'm shifting the goalpost to match the game you are trying to play.

Dark_Ansem · May 29, 2022

tabzer said:
Would you try to convince a partner you impregnated, by accident (per your own measure, reason be damned), to get an abortion because you don't want to be responsible for a child?

Yes, because neither of us want the kid, and no one consented to becoming mother or father. Classical example (which happened to me IRL, and not once) is the broken condom.

And I didn't need to insist that much.

U.S. Supreme Court set to overturn Roe v. Wade abortion rights decision

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