Romney vs. Obama

[leic7]

What exactly are you trying to say? That food stamp recipients are actually financially well of? That their standard of living is actually better than those making $135k? What's the dollar equivalence of the food stamps, anyway?

Not sure what you mean by the 'dollar equivalence' ... if you mean how much buying power does being on food stamps give you? ... I believe a family of 4 that qualifies can get 500-600 dollars a month in food stamps, depending on income. AFAIK, the food stamps can only be used for FOOD - so that 500-600 bucks is actually quite a bit to have available. My family of four does not spend that much on groceries a month if you eliminate non-food items. With non-food items included (TP, paper towels, deodorant, soap, toothpaste, cleaning products, etc) our budget probably is about 600. But since the folks on food stamps have to spend that 500-600 bucks on food only, most don't skimp and it's plain to see in the checkout line. But, a lot of people on food stamps where I live still do go cheap, because they can trade the food stamps for cash, or drugs.


Basically, it's 6000 to 7200 dollars of tax free income a year for a family of four. There are some people who truly need this help. I am not in any way opposed to the program, but only to how it is administered. There are a lot of people who are receiving food stamps now who are lying to qualify, and nothing is done to check or stop it. You want food stamps? You can probably get them.

Um, isn't $7,200/year for a whole family well below the poverty line? Did I miss something crucial?

 

[leic7]

You're really saying most black voters are only voting for Obama because he's black?

The title of the article was, "Do Black People Support Obama Because He's Black.", not do they vote for him because he's black. There is a difference between asking whether Obama gets more support from blacks vs. just their reasons for voting for him. And it's stated in a nutshell in the article:

In 2011, as black unemployment continued to rise, the chairman of the Congressional Black Caucus said that if Clinton was still president, "we probably would be still marching on the White House . (but) nobody wants to do anything that would empower the people who hate the president."

So, Obama gets a pass from the Congressional Black Caucus where a white president would not. They admit it. Does this also extend to the black community at large? It's possible. Would blacks who voted for Obama in 2008 be satisfied with the current high employment for blacks, high gas prices, etc., not to mention the promises of "Hope" and "Change" back then, if he were white??? Heck, would any Democrat really be satisfied with how he's done if he were white? His administration deports illegal aliens like they're mad about it, they ignored his promise to leave states with med marijuana alone, the whole 'gun walking' thing of supplying drug cartels weapons that were then used for murder, plus the mess in Afghanistan, the drone wars in Yemen and Pakistan, bailing out bankers instead of the poor --- I don't think the democrat base would be real satisfied if, for example, this had been Kerry as president doing these things.

I think what the chairman meant was that they just didn't want to give the opponents additional ammunition for their attack campaigns. The president happens to be black, and they also happen to be black, so the optics of their organization protesting against the president would have a very high chance of being hijacked to be used in headlines such as this, "THE PRESIDENT IS SO BAD THAT EVEN HIS OWN RACE HAS TURNED AGAINST HIM. SEE?". They just didn't want that. I can understand this, because I can imagine if one of my parents was the head of a program that I happened to disagree with, I wouldn't want to be seen out marching and protesting against the program in the streets, despite the fact that I did oppose it. Because I could just imagine what the headlines in the papers would say the next morning... and I could frankly do without the drama, thank you very much.

 

[KingVamp]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIixGrSjKs8

Come on. See this "man" lies.

 

[Hanafuda]

Um, isn't $7,200/year for a whole family well below the poverty line? Did I miss something crucial?

No the foodstamps (it's not really "stamps" anymore - you get a debit card) are just for buying food as a supplement to the income you're already receiving. A family of four (2 parents/2 kids, or 1 parent/3kids) can receive this assistance if their income is low - somewhere around $24k a year or less. It's tax free and theoretically only to be used to purchase food, so for those who are working fulltime at a low paying job, or for those who are temporarily unemployed, it's a nice boost and I'm glad they can get that help. But with almost 1/5th of all USA households getting them now (double from what it was 3 and 1/2 years ago), it's obviously no longer something that people resort to only when they're on hard times.

 

[Lacius]

If "gang" = black to you, then it's you that has the problem

Haha. By saying that black people rally behind Obama in the same way "gangs tend to assemble along racial lines," you're drawing a comparison between black Obama supporters and gangs. I'm not saying you meant anything racist by it, but as I already said, it was at least a very poor choice of words. I find it funny when conservatives say or do something stupid and try to use the "I'm rubber; you're glue" defense. Republicans try to destroy Medicare? They respond by saying Democrats are the ones trying to destroy Medicare. The Republican Party and the Tea Party have an image of racism? They respond by saying Obama is actually the racist one who hates white people. I can't say this was unexpected. Just admit that you misspoke, I'll admit that you're probably not a racist, and we'll move on to topics that actually have substance.

just the same as with Chris Matthews, for whom "food stamps" for some reason also = black.

Are you referencing Chris Matthews' reporting on Newt Gingrich singling out the black community in saying they should "demand paychecks instead of food stamps"? It seems to me like Newt Gingrich is the one who drew the comparison here.

I am not, however, equating blacks who support Obama with street gangs (of any race)

When you first said it, you said black people rally behind Obama for the same reason "gangs tend to assemble along racial lines;" you're saying the two are equivalent. Sorry, bro.

On the other hand, the tendency for the majority of blacks to support Obama more fervently than white democratic politicians (and that's the issue, not just who they vote for)

I'd like to see some real evidence of this, especially when Al Gore and John Kerry received roughly the same percentage of black voter support as Barack Obama. I know you conservatives like to ignore the numbers when they don't agree with your point, but them's the facts. Your entire argument is based one thing that one guy said, and I've already shown that you're misrepresenting the quote to fit your narrative.

is more akin to the same reason that the majority of all Americans still marry within their own race.

You're comparing apples and oranges, Hanafuda. While we've already outlined a few of the reasons why African-Americans are more likely to vote for Obama or any other Democrat (policy positions, alleged race-based animosity against Obama, etc), interracial marriage in America has to do with things like compatible cultural background, socioeconomic status, linguistic pragmatics, sexual attraction, etc. There's no way you can compare the two.

 

[Hanafuda]

You're comparing apples and oranges, Hanafuda. While we've already outlined a few of the reasons why African-Americans are more likely to vote for Obama or any other Democrat (policy positions, alleged race-based animosity against Obama, etc), interracial marriage in America has to do with things like compatible cultural background, socioeconomic status, linguistic pragmatics, sexual attraction, etc. There's no way you can compare the two.

I just did.

 

[Gahars]

You're comparing apples and oranges, Hanafuda. While we've already outlined a few of the reasons why African-Americans are more likely to vote for Obama or any other Democrat (policy positions, alleged race-based animosity against Obama, etc), interracial marriage in America has to do with things like compatible cultural background, socioeconomic status, linguistic pragmatics, sexual attraction, etc. There's no way you can compare the two.

I just did.

And you just completely missed the point.

 

[Valwin]

Romney say that if the people of puertorico vote for statehood this November and he becomes president that he would help us achieve it and well i dint really like the guy but he just won me over

 

[Hanafuda]

And you just completely missed the point.

I've not missed anything. We disagree, and Lacius likes to attribute insidious intent to the words of others when none was stated. What else is new?

Good night, fellas.

 

[Sterling]

Romney say that if the people of puertorico vote for statehood this November and he becomes president that he would help us achieve it and well i dint really like the guy but he just won me over

That's what I call a politician's promise. I'd advise you to take it with a huge grain of salt in preparation for the off chance he doesn't do it because he thinks you guys will re-elect him, or he's just lying.

 

[Lacius]

Romney say that if the people of puertorico vote for statehood this November and he becomes president that he would help us achieve it and well i dint really like the guy but he just won me over

Obama also vows support for Puerto Rico if they vote for statehood. He is also the first U.S. president to make an official state visit to Puerto Rico since 1961.

I've not missed anything.

If the above is any indication, you apparently missed my entire point. By saying "I just did" and not responding to any of my valid points on why your comparison of black support for Obama and interracial marriage was a false one, you're essentially putting your fingers in your ears and screaming. I'd like to actually hear why you think black voters pick Obama for the same reason that a person picks his or her spouse. According to you, that "same reason" is race. According to data, black voters pick Obama because of policy, and people often times pick their spouses due to the reasons I listed above. I know you conservatives don't like to be specific, but what you're saying sounds like a "bunch of stuff" that you've arbitrarily decided to believe.

We disagree, and Lacius likes to attribute insidious intent to the words of others when none was stated.

Ignoring for a moment that what you said undeniably pointed to an equivalence between black people rallying behind Obama and gangs "tending to assemble along racial lines," I'm pretty sure I made it a point to say numerous times that I don't think it was insidious intent on your part. You should probably Google what it means to say "poor choice of words" and "inconsiderate."

 

[Valwin]

Romney say that if the people of puertorico vote for statehood this November and he becomes president that he would help us achieve it and well i dint really like the guy but he just won me over

Obama also vows support for Puerto Rico if they vote for statehood. He is also the first U.S. president to make an official state visit to Puerto Rico since 1961.

yes he did as he did back in 2008 and did nothing to push anything in congress he comes here to Get money and leaves

 

[Lacius]

yes he did as he did back in 2008 and did nothing to push anything in congress he comes here to Get money and leaves

Until Puerto Ricans vote for it, I'm not sure what you expect him to "push through Congress." It should also be noted that the President's Task Force on Puerto Rico has advocated for these votes, among other things.

 

[Valwin]

yes he did as he did back in 2008 and did nothing to push anything in congress he comes here to Get money and leaves

Until Puerto Ricans vote for it, I'm not sure what you expect him to "push through Congress." It should also be noted that the President's Task Force on Puerto Rico has advocated for these votes, among other things.

he could have push some projects that were in congress in order to resolve the issue

 

[Lacius]

he could have push some projects that were in congress in order to resolve the issue

Could you be a little more specific? I'm not that informed about what's currently going on with Puerto Rico.

 

[leic7]

Um, isn't $7,200/year for a whole family well below the poverty line? Did I miss something crucial?

No the foodstamps (it's not really "stamps" anymore - you get a debit card) are just for buying food as a supplement to the income you're already receiving. A family of four (2 parents/2 kids, or 1 parent/3kids) can receive this assistance if their income is low - somewhere around $24k a year or less. It's tax free and theoretically only to be used to purchase food, so for those who are working fulltime at a low paying job, or for those who are temporarily unemployed, it's a nice boost and I'm glad they can get that help. But with almost 1/5th of all USA households getting them now (double from what it was 3 and 1/2 years ago), it's obviously no longer something that people resort to only when they're on hard times.

So...you don't have a problem with the parts of the food stamp program that benefit people who are eligible for it, correct? You only have issues with the parts where the program seems to benefit those who aren't eligible, right?

I just did a quick google on food stamp fraud, my findings all seem to point to a fraud rate of 1%* of the overall program. Is this 1% fraud rate what you've been talking about all this time?

Just to put it into perspective, I googled US military spending, didn't look much further than Wikipedia, but it appears the entire food program would cost as much as roughly 10% of the military budget. If that 1% of waste of 10% of the military expenditure (~0.1% of military expenditure) is what you've been spending that much energy on, aren't there other things that are more worthy of attention that could potentially save taxpayers much more than 0.1% of the military expenditure?


* http://www.fns.usda.gov/snap/fraud/fraud_2.htm

 

[Hanafuda]

I just did a quick google on food stamp fraud, my findings all seem to point to a fraud rate of 1%* of the overall program. Is this 1% fraud rate what you've been talking about all this time?

It's only "fraud" if you get caught and they prove it. Until you get caught and convicted, you're just another one of the 47 million people receiving food stamps. In other words, there is no way to put a percentage on the amount of actual food stamp fraud that's going on. If they're catching and actually convicting 1% of recipients, then what percentage aren't getting caught?? Somewhere above, when I was asked to 'provide sources,' I posted a link to a forum discussion where it was asked as a poll, did you lie to receive food stamps? 16% answered yes.* And that's just the ones who were willing to admit it. I also posted a link showing where US universities are openly encouraging students to apply for foodstamps regardless of their socioeconomic background (i.e. even if their parents, upon whom they are still dependents, are 'rich').


*edit: Also, I just noticed that the link you provided defines fraud as the exchange of foodstamps for cash. That's not what I've been talking about, so that 1% number, even if it were accurate (which i doubt) wouldn't apply. That's also consistent with what I was saying above, that government agencies don't put as much effort into checking whether recipients are being truthful as most citizens would think. They define fraud as illegally exchanging foodstamps already issued for cash, so that's what they are trying to catch.

And, it's not like all the 'fraud' going on is just people getting foodstamps who never would/should qualify for benefits. That's probably rather rare, and fairly easy to catch. It's more likely that the majority of cases are resulting from exaggeration - a person who does qualify for some level of food stamp benefits, but fudges their income numbers so they can get even more.

Here's an interesting government chart showing the history of food stamp program participation going back to 1971. Check out the spike in participation numbers and cost over the last few years.

http://www.fns.usda....SNAPsummary.htm

 

[Gahars]

Welp, made my first campaign donation today. It wasn't a whole lot, but hey, it's the thought that counts.

 

[Flame]

Welp, made my first campaign donation today. It wasn't a whole lot, but hey, it's the thought that counts.

which party.

 

[Gahars]

Welp, made my first campaign donation today. It wasn't a whole lot, but hey, it's the thought that counts.

which party.

A quick glance at my past posts should give you a pretty good idea.