Culture fails.

[notimp]

Update on what the filter work makes possible, thanks to the "South China Morning Post".



Looking at this, it might actually have become somewhat of a minor societal problem in china, as more than one person is using it for online grifting. It already kind of looks like its become a trend.

 

[spotanjo3]

Hhh ?! What?! This is a problem.. Not interesting.. Why ? Because this is drama. SMH. Sighing.

 

[notimp]

Hhh ?! What?! This is a problem.. Not interesting.. Why ? Because this is drama. SMH. Sighing.

I was not interested in the trend initially (didn't know it even was a trend), just found it interesting how society could fail so much in confronting one person that did this to make money through gift requests (online grifting).

You literally had people that failed like six, seven times in a row to interpret the situation, based on the presumable facts - because they were so emotionally involved.

The video now, I just posted as a follow up, because the South Chinese Morning post did some 'research' in the field.

It might be kind of interesting, as we in the west have had similar cases as well (bathwater ring a bell - ? ) that recently were in circulation and public discussion.

Its also interesting, because those are some really 'mainstream' versions of optimized online personas, used for online grifting (money solicitation, basically), paid chatroom 'girlfriend experiences', or simply - Amazons Twitch business model - a little optimized.

Its interesting as well, because those filter users use contrast makeup so their filters model them with artificially large eyes, or narrow jawbones - which
triggers "kindchenschema" emotions (cuteness perception on infants) -

which is a hardcoded emotional response. Just to get more followers, and thereby money. Acting like a little schoolgirl, just underlines, that everyone knows, what they are doing.

Full circle on optimizing for the internet economy..

I'm not outraged by this (I'm none of their potential customers. ), I'm actually fascinated by it.

This is social deception, exploitation, through human emotions, with technical means. This is (social) hacking.

And with 100.000 followers for one of the miner 'celebs' in this industry - it seams to scale quite well.

If you think I posted the video because of the link baity title, nope - it actually was linked in a (semi-) quality german newspaper by now - where I copy pasted it from this time. ( https://www.derstandard.at/story/20...en-streamerin-verjuengte-sich-mit-live-filter )

 

[notimp]

Also - as a callback to the Forum Alpbach podium idea of "if - we only can teach everyone how to get 2000 followers online - then all the mental health issues sorrounding social media will be solved" - hey, I found a way. Face filters!

For everyone!

The issue with social media is, that there can be no moderation of any kind. Structurally. Its impossible. (Far too many users, worth too little to the company. Not interested to form self regulated communities.) Then you combine that with hiring 5000 social studies majors and psychologist through out the industry that optimize for "get yourself glued to your newsfeed", then promote at elite events, that perceived self worth is directly related to follower count, and that this is a great thing, that more people should be tought how to participate in (because it doesnt cost that much, what assholes actually). Then refuse to act on the notion, that social networks should be regulated politically - because politicians like them for campaign mobilization purposes. Then found a 'virtual girlfriend' industry that prays on hardcoded emotional responses - and has people contour their faces until they look like zombies in real life - just so their AI face filter cheats on contouring - so they get more followers (dont forget, they produce for these platforms, and it only works, because you can scale to 100.000 followers quickly)--

and you end up with...

Topic of this thread.

Also, as most future economies will be service based (because you can't afford humans to own stuff anymore), I'm very interested in future avenues to exploit human programming on scale. In ways that can scale beyond 100.000 users in a short time.

I mean, as there never will be any meaningfull regulation, and everything should be solved cheaply through 'earlier education' (doesnt work), those are the goldrush opportunities of the future.

And you all thought that "creating an app for that" was a sustainable economy? My dear friends - you dont sell people on apps anymore if you want them to to be successful - you sell them on tailored experiences..

Nobody cares about people here... They really dont. So why should I care about a little personalized drama? Lets think about this structurally. Think big. Those are future economies, those are your chances to make it big.

 

[notimp]

You learned how to fake smiles, identities, interest, loyalty, importance, ...

Isn't that what PC is all about?

I forgot fake faces - of course. Only a natural development.

 

[IncredulousP]

I dunno, if people want to throw away their money to some online personality, I say let 'em. It's their money, whatever makes them happy.

 

[notimp]

But they dont want to, thats the point. They feel 'tricked' and get angry at themselves for being exploited, and when we talk about exploiting hard coded emotional ersponses in people --

no, of course no one needs to regulate social media - let people have what they (don't really) want.

Do we need to protect them? Do we need to shut down those business models?

No, says Jeff Bezos, and buys another Twitch, which does the same (still a little less outrageous - but also 'selling the 'my big brother/my idol fake online girlfriend' experiences to the shut ins).

The question is always - when is all of it too much.

And the answer currently is -- never. Because you cant solve those issues structurally you dont have the incentives, or the money for it.

Bullshit scales highly efficiently, because facebook (as well as the chinese social networks, by the looks of it (Emperess?)) optimizes for emotional payoff - not caring about anything other than your time spent on instagram.

You make them so little money, that they cant hire someone that would act as a fact checker, moderator, judge, and have that as part of their business models -- you are only worth a few dollars to them. But then there is very many of you out there.

Everyone that wants to exploit a human characteristic in mass - loves social media plattforms. Including politicians.

The solution thats currently proposed is 'algorithms' (we deleted 200 accounts today) - which proves nothing (nobody can look at them, nobody can look at their results within the network - all proprietary) -- and 'earlier education' of people. Which doesnt work, when we are now into exploiting human personality flaws. It just doest.

Again, there are multiple people now on record, saying outright, that social media platforms like facebook are exploiting the worst aspects of humanity. Thats not just a high fellutant statement, thats actually what they are doing.

(Here have some girlfriend experience porn, outrage bait, bubble comfort, no counterspeech, ...)

And the public sentiment is still - 'let the idiots hang themselves'. How much longer.

Again - they will never be regulated in a meaningful fashion, because its not economically viable for them to 'start caring' about their users. You cant even get a phone call with them. Or an email exchange with a department lead. You simply arent worth it, as far as how much time it costs them to do something about it.

So. And at some point we have to ask ourselves, we try to help people that suffer from gambling addiction, but for those 100.000 followers in that fake avatars chatroom, that is telling them to give her money, so they get more affection from her - we have... nothing.

And thats not the only issue here.


The bigger problem is, that "data analytics" is still seen as one of the very few future growth markets. So you still allow those industries to do anything they like - just so they can establish market leader positions. Generate new economies. Thats a political decision.

You dont care about peoples wellbeing. Nobody does.

 

[yuyuyup]

@notimp ever hear of the term "Gish Gallop" ROFLMAO

 

[PityOnU]

Update on what the filter work makes possible, thanks to the "South China Morning Post".



Looking at this, it might actually have become somewhat of a minor societal problem in china, as more than one person is using it for online grifting. It already kind of looks like its become a trend.

Full disclosure: I am not Chinese, but my (fairly large) lab during my 6 years of grad school was almost entirely Chinese, so I will comment on this based on my anecdotal experiences. I fully acknowledge that this will be painting with a wide brush, individual results may vary, etc.

This is a HUGE cultural problem in China. Girls basically use these face filter apps 100% of the time. I can't comment on why, but my guess is it is due to some level of societal pressure (the cultural mentality in China is still extremely sexist, at least by western standards), which has likely been exacerbated by modern social media. A decent number of the Chinese girls I have interacted with refuse to post pictures of themselves without doctoring them at least a little bit. The running joke is that the face filter is one of the greatest inventions of the 21st century. And that's really sad.

That being said, I've noticed similar things with younger Americans. I knew a girl last summer who ended up having plastic surgery because she so strongly disliked like the way she looked. She was 21 at the time, and already very pretty. No need for that. Just really sad all around.

Hope all these girls can move past this.

 

[notimp]

@notimp ever hear of the term "Gish Gallop" ROFLMAO

Nope, but i read up on it with interest. The thing is, that I'm not doing this to win an argument, but that I actually believe, that there is something seriously wrong with how social media is set up to work within society today. So - f.e. I believe, that micro targeting voters for election advertisment purposes, ruins democracy. I really do.

(The candidate that can be 501 different things to different people. But targeted.)

The debate about online grifting is just me having another crack at it. I get that this one is only of small importance in comparison (100.000 grifting marks in china with one lady alone though, thats something, that scales... ). But its interesting to me nevertheless.

I dont believe I tried to flood with useless hard to refute arguments in here, because the bigger point I'm making (culture/society fails) is not something that has to be argued. It just does - all the time.

And then it doesnt.

I just have a direct emotional reaction when I read stories, where it does - and this is when I'm posting in here..

 

[yuyuyup]

Nope, but i read up on it with interest. The thing is, that I'm not doing this to win an argument, but that I actually believe, that there is something seriously wrong with how social media is set up to work within society today. So - f.e. I believe, that micro targeting voters for election advertisment purposes, ruins democracy. I really do.

(The candidate that can be 501 different things to different people. But targeted.)

The debate about online grifting is just me having another crack at it. I get that this one is only of small importance in comparison (100.000 grifting marks in china with one lady alone though, thats something, that scales... ). But its interesting to me nevertheless.

I dont believe I tried to flood with useless hard to refute arguments in here, because the bigger point I'm making (culture/society fails) is not something that has to be argued. It just does - all the time.

And then it doesnt.

I just have a direct emotional reaction when I read stories, where it does - and this is when I'm posting in here..

You WERE arguing with me, I took the position that there isn't much crossover between the anti-pc message and anti-Trump message, and you responded with a wall of text about how I'm being manipulated, how I stand for nothing, how all I care about is social standing, how I fake loyalty???? Holy crap I must be a mess ROFLMAO

 

[notimp]

Neh, not you personally. Also - on the fake loyalty point. Good job for pointing that out - because, its something that wouldnt hold as an argument. (people probably didnt get less loyal in the past century.. ).

What you did was to engage a little too much in the "painting people as shmucks, that follow stories/concepts to the very end, because they are from one camp, or another. Without thinking or feeling.

I know that I do that as well. (Faked loyalty point. ) But I do it usually - when lamenting about people not changing behavior, because of emotional payoffs. So my argument (almost) always goes, people are dumb and not cared for, because they are easily emotionally exploited, and then very willing to turn that around and get something out of it, when they see a change to benefit from that as well.

This is my 'fixed' (for better or worse.. ) image of society - 'when it fails'.

Your idea of 'dems/liberals (?) usually love PC language' and 'but you also are anti Trump' - and 'those two don't go together'. Also are specific images of people in society. But they are so granular - that they decide between 'them people who follow that person', and 'them people who shout that message' - that when you then assume, that this could never change, or that all people in one such group would be holding an opinion down to the point of caricature ('All dems/liberals talk in PC language'), it kind of doest work.

The reason why I think that those archetypes kind of stick - is because they are what 'replicates best' in a social media environment. (Outrage on the one side, and 'faked concern' that doesnt really affect many people in outcome on the other).

That was actually a rather complex argument to make.

Hence wall of text. But I don't think I'm 'winning' that one - the answer wasn't catchy enough..

 

[notimp]

*drumroll, please*

A Palestinian Harvard Student Said He Was Deported Because Of His Friend's Social Media Posts
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ellievhall/palestinian-harvard-student-deported-social-media

 

[Jiehfeng]

Hey, word of advice @notimp, take it or leave it; don't use the Enter key so much. Make more bigger paragraphs and separate them by point and such.

 

[notimp]

This one is kind of 'not decided yet' in terms of potential outcome - but interesting regardless.



China has implemented an algorithmic scoring system for corporate market actors.

edit: Moved to a separate thread:
https://gbatemp.net/threads/the-chinese-corporate-social-credit-system.547033/

 

[IncredulousP]

*drumroll, please*

A Palestinian Harvard Student Said He Was Deported Because Of His Friend's Social Media Posts
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/ellievhall/palestinian-harvard-student-deported-social-media

Well that's what you get when you use one of the largest data harvesting platforms in the world. C'mon people, stop using personally identifiable information on the internet.

 

[notimp]

Via fefe (german blog) -

The economist on the issue of free speech (in current times):

Meanwhile, in mature democracies, support for free speech is ebbing, especially among the young, and outright hostility to it is growing. Nowhere is this more striking than in universities in the United States. In a Gallup poll published last year, 61% of American students said that their campus climate prevented people from saying what they believe, up from 54% the previous year. Other data from the same poll may explain why. Fully 37% said it was “acceptable” to shout down speakers they disapproved of to prevent them from being heard, and an incredible 10% approved of using violence to silence them.

Many students justify this by arguing that some speakers are racist, homophobic or hostile to other disadvantaged groups. This is sometimes true. But the targets of campus outrage have often been reputable, serious thinkers. Heather Mac Donald, for example, who argues that “Black Lives Matter” protests prompted police to pull back from high-crime neighbourhoods, and that this allowed the murder rate to spike, had to be evacuated from Claremont McKenna College in California in a police car. Furious protesters argued that letting her speak was an act of “violence” that denied “the right of black people to exist”.

src: https://www.economist.com/internati...lobalgagonfreespeechistighteningthenewcensors