1. notimp

    OP notimp Well-Known Member
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    China is about to implement an algorithmic scoring system for corporate market actors.

    The first independent study on it made by consulting firm Sinolytics on behest of the European Union Chamber of Commerce in China, describes it as -

    'The Digital Hand – How China's Corporate Social Credit System Conditions Market Actors'
    https://www.europeanchamber.com.cn/...a_wake_up_call_for_european_business_in_china

    Meaning, that china is implementing a more direct approach on how to 'guide' the proverbial invisible hand of the market - within their capitalistic market economy. :)

    Its only 35 pages long, looks parseable and should be an interesting read.

    Short video summery:

    From the pdf:

    English name coined is 'Corporate Social Credit System', it's due to be implemented by the end of 2020.

    'Uses realtime monitoring and processing systems to collect and interpret Big Data, which facilitates immediate detection and compliance and raises or decreases a companies 'score' (buzzwords :) )

    Good (according to Sinolytics):

    - equal enforcement of regulations (because algos)
    - European companies that use low emissions tech on "heavily polluted days" may not be shut down in the future ;)

    Bad:
    - administrative overhead for SMEs. :)

    Ugly:
    Lol. :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2019
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  2. CallmeBerto

    CallmeBerto The Lone Wanderer
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    This is code for "GET THE FUCK OUT OF THERE"

    Though I am scared that governments will try this in the West in less then a decade under the disguise of protecting the children or stopping criminals early.

    This is totally fuck.
     
  3. notimp

    OP notimp Well-Known Member
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    Kind of called it in my master thesis, btw. ;) (A few years ago. Which makes me oddly joyful... ;) )
     
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  4. notimp

    OP notimp Well-Known Member
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    You know what - you might be right, there (in addressing specific people)... ;)

    It continues:
    *rofl*

    It continues:
    edit:

    For multi national companies, a set of about 300 requirements can be expected to be put into place. If they are not met, and scores plummet too low, there are repercussions.

    What are they - you ask? ;)
    Lol.

    edit: This is the actual call for action:
    edit:

    Here the customary 'go ahead, and monitor each other' - clause... ;)
    edit: This is the investment impact callout:
    edit:
    Here is the 'go ahead and self censor - best guesses welcome' principle:
    Hint: 100 bucks on 'it will never get too transparent'.

    edit: This is also part of the 'social chilling'
    edit: Stuff like this is just beautiful(ly vicious)...
    (Turns around 'not guilty until proven' and makes you formally apply for 'restoration of credit' with set in place waiting periods.)
    edit: Here is some candy. :) (Beautiful. :) )
    edit: Also bad points for filing stuff late (of course :) ).

    edit: BWAHAHAHA!
    Found an intentional backdoor here, boys. ;)

    edit: Oh it is so beautiful(ly vicious).
     
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  5. notimp

    OP notimp Well-Known Member
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    The impacts of being rated as a 'distrusted company':

    - Higher inspection rates
    - Targeted audits
    - [being distrusted is a] reference point during all kinds of administrative approvals and bureaucratic procedures
    - [being distrusted is a] reference point for financial and credit affairs
    - Exclusion from public procurement
    - Public blaming and shaming
    - Impact on the legal representative and directly responsible personnel
    [Travel restrictions! Yay! Restrictions from purchasing insurances! Yay! Restrictions from purchasing real estate! Yay! :) Restrictions from taking another job in the field! Yay!]
    - Impact on other ratings or classifications [No certs for you!]


    The importance of data aggregation:
    [Please, pretty Please? Now social media becomes a problem? ;)]
    - seems so.. ;)

    Oh, there is a 'Cyberspace Administration of China for fake news and rumours' - neat. I'm sure some forum users would like to have that in the west a well.. ;)
    Here is the list on corporate technical implementation:
     
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  6. notimp

    OP notimp Well-Known Member
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    Here is what makes you a 'heavily distrusted entity'
    And of course - the system and the weighing is 'ever changing'.

    Corporate wishlist (current):

    Can we please have:
    Another piece of candy for your way out: :)
    Thats (most of) it.

    edit: Oh, and it will be part of international trade relations. :)
     
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  7. DBlaze

    DBlaze I don't know what i'm doing.
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    Cool story, so when are they going to stop blatantly copying literally everything?
    Oh wait :unsure:
     
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  8. notimp

    OP notimp Well-Known Member
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    Now. :)

    If you read everything - you get a comprehensive understanding how business relations work. Also state/business level relations.

    Its worth it.

    This is not just me getting enthused. :) (Moderators please allow. Its not everyday - that something like this comes along.. ;) )
     
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  9. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer
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    Pity my Chinese is not so great. Could have some real fun here either making the system untenable or generally doing some black hat shit. Doubly so if we get some nice voice synthesisers -- oh no is your CTO (or the general lynch pins* of your organisation) a secret Falun Gong member and likes to use company ink to spread word of corruption/democracy/... Bit of light shorting if you have access to a market could finance a lot as well.

    *I usually find there are a handful of real movers and shakers at a company that you would be hard pressed to replace. If even the accusation would stick...
     
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  10. morvoran

    morvoran Trumpican
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    Social media companies such as Facebook and Google gave been implementing their own version of this in Western culture for awhile now. A quick web search will find several sources about this with more popping up everyday since the media gas become aware of China's version. It's coming our way, folks. Oh, it's coming.
     
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  11. notimp

    OP notimp Well-Known Member
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    For insurances purposes - it was likely. For recruitment purposes it was already there. How the US uses their 'full take' on data - we cant say for certain.

    But we still tend to keep our societies more open, and not have people 'collect better social circles' to gain points (well, actually.. ;) ), or at least not to 'spy and report' on everyones activity (chilling effect), as the counter party in a business deal.

    Still the trajectories are there, and the similarities (what FB tries to push for (f.e. get data on all money transactions), are there as well.
     
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  12. Xzi

    Xzi All your base are belong to the proletariat
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    Umm, why would anybody care how Facebook rates other companies? Or for that matter, how they rate individuals that don't even use their platform? Google already has user reviews for businesses, and they certainly don't carry more weight than reviews on other websites (Yelp, for example).

    The problem with China's system is the authoritarian government's involvement, and while I'm sure the Trump administration would love to limit our freedom of speech/autonomy of business, that's gonna be a much tougher sell in a country where it's constitutionally protected. Facial recognition systems used for the purposes of law enforcement are a different topic, and a much bigger potential threat to our freedoms in the US.
     
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  13. notimp

    OP notimp Well-Known Member
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    Its correct, concerning the big data approach - with a select group of individuals. In the private sector there are the same private data brokers in the west, that are used (as one data source) in the Chinese system as well. They may be used from a certain responsibility level for a job onwards. For recruitment and assessment of potential - facebook profiles will be screened today. Police use facebook to 'hunt criminals'. People use social media to assess new friend circles and lifepartners. People will use company rating websites to pick out future employers. People use online portals to select their physicians, ... and so on and so forth.

    The actual promise of a 'digital assistant" (still one of the goals tech companies are aiming fore), is to deliver you potential ratings (alongside ads), context sensitive.

    When you are loosing your job, in my country - your CV will be assessed by an algorithm. Only leaving room for 'individual upgrading' in case of "has shown ambition".

    We are there. Its just not compulsory yet. That and some of the 'proactive' and 'chilling' affects of the chinese system - probably never will be implemented in the west - because we would consider it unethical, or unconstitutional.

    That said - governments in the west, are very willing to employ so called 'nudging' in legislation - to reach desired effect. And thats data driven a well - just not as coordinated or all encompasing.


    For business purposes - when I copied the term "digital hand of the market" - I wasn't kidding. They are literally disabling the free market economy of capitalism. Not just on a basis of 'sector regulation', but actually bringing in another factor that their capitalism works - optimizing alongside it.

    Market economies in the west are supposed to be largely impartial - theirs is not - by design.

    So that would probably be the last thing that changes, if it ever gets more accepted in the west. But everything other than that - already is changing. :)
     
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  14. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer
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    Ideally. Nobody.

    Pragmatically. Quite a few people -- for many businesses of the customer facing variety if you are not on facebook or google's various properties you might as well not exist and if you find yourself shuffled to the bottom of lists (or off the first page as the case may be) then that ends badly. Hopefully facebook continues to take a kicking and have more people leave or only be there for competitions and funny pictures but at this point it is still something to note. Likewise I also would like to see youtube either play nicely again or get replaced by something better but that is probably secondary in all this after maps and search.

    China being an authoritarian shithole is scary but that does not mean I take my eye of big tech companies that also wield a lot of power.
     
  15. Xzi

    Xzi All your base are belong to the proletariat
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    As a business you certainly need some form of internet presence, but a Facebook page is far from a necessity. Especially given that Facebook as a business themselves have a very poor rating with any number of consumer reporting agencies, and any data hosted by them is damn near guaranteed to be sold, stolen, or both.
     
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  16. notimp

    OP notimp Well-Known Member
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    What facebook has lost during the publicity hit was made up by instagram growth (same company) instantly.

    When they got fined their billion dollar fee recently their stock price rose.

    They've bought out past competitors. Or copied their featureset and pushed them out of market (with snapchat they are still trying).

    When france tries to enact a digital tax, it gets put up on the G7 agenda, and the US delegation lobbies it away again.

    The thing with companies profiting from the network effect is, that they are actaully likely never to get replaced - because the investment a competitor would have to mount - against a 'free' business model that scales on advertising - is unfinancible. Even not looking at that they would get a worse ad price.

    There will not be another technological leap that would warrant a usability change where they could mess up. in the near future

    And to outcompete youtube - not even amazon was brave enough to try - and they settled for the twitch approach instead (which has people paying for chatroom access/visibility).

    The blatent truth that has to sink in is - that the garage days are long, long over - and you are mostly dreaming of a phantasy, when awaiting a changeover.

    The last lockin would be digital payment - if facebook has that under wraps as well - its over. There they now have got pushback by national banks, but they'll work on getting that lobbied away.

    Youtube and Facebook also never will get 'better' in terms of customer dreams of what content should be ranked higher or lower, because y<ou dont decide - advertisers do. So if you've copied that statement from some youtubers rant, thats mostly false as well... :)

    Welcome to the here and now. :)
     
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  17. chrisrlink

    chrisrlink Intel Pentium III Hamster inside
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    the world's gonna end before this gets fully implimented thanks to rocket man kim and mother russia....and yes your talking to an unstable man who nearly lost everything and doesn't care if humanity lives or dies off (I answered your question before you even asked it)
     
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  18. notimp

    OP notimp Well-Known Member
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    Rocket man doesnt matter. Russia doesnt matter (starts to matter more regionally, or started until recent protests). Diplomacy still has them covered. :)

    Its just the easyness that we go from individual rights (privacy, remember?) to - well, we probably should monior our competition now to retain a good social score - thats actually remarkable.
     
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  19. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer
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    I am not sure about that. While being in Google's search and probably maps for many things is a far more pressing matter I have sat in on enough small businesses of varying types at this point and seen many of them do well with facebook promotions (different codes, used one of the other phone numbers, web analytics showing referrals), take enquiries from it (despite no indication to do that and it actually being annoying as fewer people had access to the account), be communicated to via it from reasonably high paying clients and more besides.
    There were others I weaned off advertising with Facebook, got things stuck on those post to 15 different social meeja platforms with one site type setups leaving facebook another stop on the way as it were, had to get people to spend less time on such things and more time on others (usually by demonstrating the opposite to the things mentioned above), occasionally locked down the page to lessen contact but UK wise (yelp is not really a thing here, indeed the yellow pages as they are known are morons* and are fading fast) it would be said to be a bold move to not have your business on facebook if your customers are the general public, and if you are a restaurant or clothes shop even more so. Restaurant wise the only people to give me more grief in general were tastecard and trip advisor.
    Doing for a restaurant directory/reviews company I also noted a large amount of restaurants either having their website as a placeholder and all the action going on facebook or simply only having a facebook (though this was more often than not just the village/estate chip shop, Chinese or curry house, though as I was dealing with them then many were getting awards).

    *I have previously covered my story wherein I spoke to their graphics and web services division about the unholy image format I sent them of a client's logo and whatnot (I recall where I was when I got the call, 2013 according to my accounts). The format in question... PNG. It was that same year that they also lost all their other customers among my other clients (most actually not from my experience there or my prompting).
     
  20. morvoran

    morvoran Trumpican
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    Facebook - Potential and current employers, insurance companies, credit card companies, etc. can and have used people's facebook profiles already to judge them based on the material they post.
    Google/Youtube - Google can add you into their search engine so anybody can type in your name and pull up arrest records, personal blogs, even forum posts on extremist websites. The videos you share can be used to target you for hate/death threats and can be used to silence you if you do not fit into Google's "preferred speech".
    Twitter - people have been fired or lost job opportunities for posts made years ago.

    These all seem like social credit profiling to me, but what do I know?

    Right now, I, personally, can't confirm that they are giving "ratings" to individuals, but that is a possible next step.

    I also said nothing about rating companies. Not sure why you brought that up.
     
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