Misc So, is the left wing good or not?

JeepX87 · 2024-11-23T05:59:59+0000

TomSwitch for President - Make America Cheat Again!!!

He can solve the debt ceiling issue is create unlimited fund cheat and make everyone happy.

TomSwitch · 2024-11-23T06:49:24+0000

supermist said:
Nah it's fine Trump said he'd end it in a day so hold him accountable to that

Thumbs up to your confidence in Trump. I have some degree of confidence too about world peace thanks to Trump.

Between the two Biden is definitely more harmful to world peace.

Post automatically merged: Yesterday at 6:53 AM

JeepX87 said:
TomSwitch for President - Make America Cheat Again!!!

He can solve the debt ceiling issue is create unlimited fund cheat and make everyone happy.

America has been using cheat code for decades, the only country who can just print their way out of debt.

Problem will come when the next update stop the print money cheat.

We have to stay tune to see if DOGE going to stop some of their favorite cheat codes from working.

I think some DEI cheats is going to stop working. Let's wait and see.

No body can make "make everybody happy" cheat. The had the "make everyone hate each other and leave you alone to do your evil thing" cheat. I don't think there is much hope that this cheat will stop working.

That "make it about 50/50" cheat is simply amazing.

PS: That debt ceiling show is to distract the rest of the world from complaining that America has been printing money for free. Why it has been working so well I have no idea.

Taleweaver · 2024-11-23T09:11:22+0000

Xdqwerty said:
Since I the left wing is in favor of people's rights it should be good, but most if not all countries that have left wing governments (such as most of latin america) are in a poor state while countries with right wing governments are in a better state in comparison despite the fact that people hate the right wing and im now confused.

That's a tough question without simple answers. You also make asdumptions that i think are already corrected by now. Nonetheless, I'm going to give a birds eye perspective on things

See... The whole 'left' and 'right' are a simplified way of looking at the spectrum of society

There are three or four... Pillars is perhaps the best word
* government, represented by politicians.
* the people, represented by unions and interest groups
*corporations, represented by ceo's and lobbyists
(* middle class, represented by... Small Business owners perhaps?)

No society can live without these, but the strength differs on many areas. Postal services can't be both privatized and nationalized, for example. And though each have strengths and weaknesses, this is all a potential.

Communism is all about a strong government at the cost of the others. Corruption is it's main potential weakness.
Socialism is power to the people. Unions, however, have no share in profits, so petty Corruption and/or bureaucracy is common.
Liberalism is about smaller companies. From my view, they tend to erode the government, but I'm the last familiar with this one.
Capitalism in this context is liberalism in it's extreme. It aims to privatise everything. It's the most efficient (more money=good), but has about as much personal freedom as Communism.

Good and bad aren't good measures to weigh these powers. Government taxes people to find projects. But how much is 'good'? Should it fund libraries? Subsidize hospital? Pay unemployed people?

One of the things that big me about Trump is that he spreads his ignorant knowledge of politics. Democrats are hardly pro union, met alone that they want to nationalise sectors. If that's "extreme left", it'd be funny to see how he could describe Sanders's ideas.
The sad reality is that corporate media (traditional Capitalism) ridicules any slight direction of democrats to do something liberal, and as such lean more Capitalism (the monopolisation of Google isn't something they'd tackle, for example).

And what's often mocked as 'Orange man bad' misses the absurdity of the situation: there'll be someone on top of the government who doesn't realize its role and just wants to get rid of it because it doesn't make a profit.
There are many examples of his first term, but I'll give this one: nuclear waste control. It's an Offspring from the tests of world War 2.it's a cost that, if not payed, would cost more in healthcare. But Trump wanted to get rid of it, and it was only due to diligent clerics that the cost cutting didn't materialise... Then.

Captain-Z · 2024-11-23T17:04:49+0000

Xzi said:
They were camps where people were concentrated and given less than the bare minimum provisions necessary for survival, calling them by a different name doesn't change their malicious purpose. Many children were never reunited with their parents. Multiple clear violations of international human rights there, whether you want to admit it or not.

Police states tend to be completely devoid of human rights, and there's no excuse for supporting cold-blooded murder.

Classical liberalism comes closest to aligning with some leftist ideology, but it also aligns closely with old-school right-wing libertarianism. Regardless, neither the modern Democratic nor Republican party fall under that tent.

That is not the definition of a concentration camp. Regardless, detained migrants were never denied any necessities, nor were children withheld form parents. Mismanagement and being underfunded does not equate denying people rights. Furthermore, Trump ended the policy of family separation which was put in place the Obama administration.

America is not a police state, and the people supporting the police were not supporting cold-blooded murder. People either protested police brutality or denied it happened. Nobody was advocating for racism or more police brutality.

As I already said, the west falls under liberalism. Which traditionally is considered left wing in political science. You're just demonstrating my point, that "left" and "right" mean different thing to different people and in different contexts, so we shouldn't say one is universally good or bad.

Xzi · 2024-11-23T21:14:09+0000

Captain-Z said:
Furthermore, Trump ended the policy of family separation which was put in place the Obama administration.

I'm not sure that level of gaslighting would've worked even if I was born in 2020.

Captain-Z said:
People either protested police brutality or denied it happened.

There was no denying it happened after the video came out, and there was no shortage of people still siding with the cops.

Captain-Z said:
You're just demonstrating my point, that "left" and "right" mean different thing to different people and in different contexts, so we shouldn't say one is universally good or bad.

What they meant in a historical sense is largely irrelevant to a discussion about modern-day politics. The right's agenda is pushing the world toward authoritarianism or even genocide, Putin and Netanyahu are both prime examples of that.

Captain-Z · 2024-11-23T21:35:36+0000

Xzi said:
I'm not sure that level of gaslighting would've worked even if I was born in 2020.

There was no denying it happened after the video came out, and there was no shortage of people still siding with the cops.

What they meant in a historical sense is largely irrelevant to a discussion about modern-day politics. The right's agenda is pushing the world toward authoritarianism or even genocide, Putin and Netanyahu are both prime examples of that.

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-build-cages-immigrants/

https://www.npr.org/sections/itsall...obama-immigrant-detention-policies-under-fire

https://globalnews.ca/news/4238798/us-children-immigration-photo-2014-trump/

I'm not saying people are smart, I'm just pointing out that people supporting the police does not equate to them supporting oppression. Again, no one was celebrating or encouraging more brutality.

The discussion is not exclusively about modern day politics, but the west is still considered to be left in political science. I was just answering OP's question by pointing out "left" and "right" are contextual. Also, Russia and Israel are not western nations, but, I would agree that both their governments lean heavily to the right.

Jayro · 2024-11-23T22:09:52+0000

Left is definitely good. We want everyone to thrive, be safe, have health care and food, etc. The right only wants to make everyone else's life a living hell because they don't come up with any solutions that benefit anyone, all they do is block, ban, and shit all over anything they don't agree with.

Xzi · 2024-11-23T22:11:45+0000

Captain-Z said:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/obama-build-cages-immigrants/

My statements were never in reference to who built the facilities or when they were built. I was talking about the policy of separating children from their parents at the border and keeping them detained separately. That started during the Trump administration, and the cruelty was the entire point of it. The Biden administration attempted to reunite as many families as possible, but the Trump administration was purposefully lax in their record-keeping, so many families were never reunited.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_administration_family_separation_policy

Wikipedia said:
Prior to the Trump administration, the United States did not routinely separate migrant parents from their children. Rather, previous administrations used either family detention facilities (allowing families to remain intact pending deportation hearings in civil immigration court) or alternatives to detention (e.g., release pending further hearings).[27][28] Families traveling together were generally only separated under narrow circumstances, such as suspicion of human trafficking, an outstanding warrant, or fraud.[27][29]

Captain-Z said:
Again, no one was celebrating or encouraging more brutality.

You clearly haven't met too many of the "thin blue line" crowd. Trump has at various times encouraged police brutality both before and after the murder of George Floyd, and his cultists follow his lead always.

Captain-Z said:
Also, Russia and Israel are not western nations, but, I would agree that both their governments lean heavily to the right.

As we already saw demonstrated in his first term, Trump considers despots like Putin, Netanyahu, and Kim Jong Un to be closer allies than any leader in the Western world.

The Catboy · 2024-11-23T22:19:06+0000

Being that there really isn't a "Left-wing" in the US, it's hard to say on a large scale since I've never lived under a system that hasn't been to the far Right. The issue with trying to categorize things like "Left believes in Human Rights" is that it's just not true. Both wings believe similar ideas, it's just how they are expressed and considered "allowed to happen." For example, right-wingers tend to be in favor of rights if they do not impede the Free Market. The further Right you go, the more those concepts change.
Left-wing tends to believe in human rights as a basic right, but even going further Left you end up with concepts like becoming anti-LGBT+ and anti-Religious because those create individualities that counter the system, for example, USSR and China.

Of course, if you are just looking casually at the current politics one could say "Left is good because they don't want to take rights away from people like trans people!" Which is great but then the "Left" also turns around and spreads misandry, anti-Cisgender, and anti-Christian shit when you even take one step back to look at the bigger picture. The Right is no better because it's become a reactive-style political stance that is literally "Whatever the Left is doing is bad!" Again, taking a step back and you find a lot of people who just like the status quo and are being sucked into the idea that the Status quo is being threatened, so they are reacting on their gut.

The Center isn't any better because it just defaults toward the status quo and whatever that status quo happens to be is determined by the Overton window, which has been striving further into the deep Right since the 50s.

I consider myself to be part of the Left but that's largely because my political beliefs are considered "Left." I was a Communist for over 17 years though, but stopped following the movement when I realized just how exploited I was by it.

Captain-Z · 2024-11-23T23:42:39+0000

Xzi said:
My statements were never in reference to who built the facilities or when they were built. I was talking about the policy of separating children from their parents at the border and keeping them detained separately. That started during the Trump administration, and the cruelty was the entire point of it. The Biden administration attempted to reunite as many families as possible, but the Trump administration was purposefully lax in their record-keeping, so many families were never reunited.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_administration_family_separation_policy

You clearly haven't met too many of the "thin blue line" crowd. Trump has at various times encouraged police brutality both before and after the murder of George Floyd, and his cultists follow his lead always.

As we already saw demonstrated in his first term, Trump considers despots like Putin, Netanyahu, and Kim Jong Un to be closer allies than any leader in the Western world.

I was never interested in a debate on Trump's or Obama's policies (Both of whom separated children from parents). My point was that migrant detention or even family separation is not associated with right wing governments (unlike concentration camps, which is what you were claiming earlier). And, again, no rights were purposefully withheld.

No, Trump did not encourage police brutality. He literally promised justice would be served after the death of George Floyd. Being "pro police" is not the same as "anti-rights". Police support has nothing to do with the left-right spectrum. Nobody ion America is encouraging a police state.

Trump did/does have better relations with Putin and Kim than most western leaders but that doesn't make them allies. Furthermore, a nation isn't right wing just because they have a close relationship to a right wing nation. It's not just Trump either. There are plenty of examples of right wing nations that all America administrations have close ties to. Both Turkey and Saudi Arabia are close American partners despite being right wing.

What exactly is your goal here? Are you trying to example the left-right spectrum or are you just pushing political propaganda? What's the point of trying to pretend that America and Trump aren't consider left geopolitically?

Xdqwerty · 2024-11-23T23:46:32+0000

I think this thread is starting to deviate

Xzi · 2024-11-24T00:09:33+0000

Captain-Z said:
What's the point of trying to pretend that America and Trump aren't consider left geopolitically?

Calling Trump leftist is absolutely fucking delusional, especially after you admitted that all his besties are right-wing. There's no shortage of his supporters who fly the swastika and/or confederate flag. He's as far right as any president the US has ever had post-Civil War.

An example of actual leftist policy would be nationalizing a bank after taxpayers bail it out, and not even Obama came close to taking such measures. US politics has shifted the Overton window so far right that you've completely lost sight of what a leftist government looks like, assuming you even had a frame of reference for that to begin with. The Democratic party is center-right, the Republican party has been getting dragged to the far-right ever since GWB was elected. Religious fundamentalism is poison to political progress and political discourse.

Misc So, is the left wing good or not?

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