Games are often seen as tests of various skills, however most that everybody knows tend to test a fairly consistent set of them which most would be game players can learn and adapt to fairly quickly.
However they often shy away from asking people to use skills found in many but not necessarily anything like all. Here we want to know what you have either encountered in a game and came to a dead end with, or even sought out as a game as you have or wish to develop the skills in question.
Sometimes use of these skills are impractical to simulate in a game but other times they are eminently doable but few game developers would make such a thing, possibly for fear of limiting their audience.

Darlings of the first wave of PC CD games the 7th Guest and 11th Hour were often noted for wanting quite considerable maths, word and logic skills the likes of which have seldom been seen in games since then.
Should I wander around in a game and a game then asks me to play a 16 note sequence in something like real time from this piece of sheet music... that is going to involve me generating a key to do it and will take hours for something someone that can play and read sheet music might do first time in 15 seconds flat.
Rocksmith could see a mention in this sort of discussion but as its goal is clearly stated as being a music trainer it might not count.
Ever played a sniper game and not been taught what all those lines inside your scope mean or how to use them? Sometimes you might be taught about bullet drop/ranging, and wind or leading a moving target but rarely how to use mildots or other aim assisting aspects.
Fez was a fairly notable platformer for its rotational world mechanics but some of its secrets, easter eggs and bonuses were incredibly obtuse and saw people recreate QR codes, decipher very long form binary.
The hacking minigame/bonus game for enter the matrix was something of a recreation of DOS, as opposed to the usual simplified version of an old arcade classic or item consumer.

Are there any skills you would like to see explored more in games in the future? Fiction is replete with examples of clever detectives solving word puzzles on ancient tombs (something rather lacking in games despite such a scenario being far from unexplored in computer games), and likewise it is not short of fiction depicting computer games with clever puzzles for people to solve to unlock a secret job or government contract. ARGs and hackme contests are arguably this as well but might not quite be a game you are going to complete by yourself or with a few mates.

This is part of a discussion series in which we discuss and ponder things about games, be it individual games, aspects of the game industry, gaming culture, mechanics or gaming concepts. Previously we discussed What technologies in 20 years will seem unfairly held back.

Spoiler: earlier editions

your best story from free form games, when your mental cutoff for "old games" lands, games and media franchises you know mostly from offbeat and forgotten sources, game franchises that rose from the dead, and those that should have stayed dead,Back in my day we didn't have X but did have Y. Gaming edition., what would $20 get you in your preferred gaming genre, games you play by your own rules., the state of VR and 3D and whether they had once more failed to take hold, the last game skill you unlearned, The game you invested the most money in, times where people said gameplay styles would not work for a platform, the value of online play, emulation vs hardware, a favoured game style that might have become less common in recent times, skills one might have learned or honed because of a game, games on the PS4 and Xbone that will stand the test of time, games that got better after launch, cancelled games and shuttered devs, and story canon in games.

 

[gohan123]

the witness, la mulana and english language requirements in disco elysium.

 

[stüssy]

Picross addict here

 

[The Catboy]

I am actually really good at playing The World Ends with You on my DS because I am ambidextrous

 

[TheCasualties]

I've got one more game to mention here, Duskers. It relies on planing, strategy, resource management, being able to keep calm in disasters, AND programing.

This one may be good for those who liked Shenzhen I/O.

You control a set of drones, via command line, to board derelict space ships and collect supplies for your journey through space. You can even make macros or small scripts to execute, but I never figured it out. I actually never got very far in this game as I'm still not too good at programing.

I may need to take another try, now that I've been learning some basic programing (skills? lol). This video kind of shows how it requires some 'non games skills'.

---

I see a lot of “edutainment” games listed here and can’t say I believe it fits the topic. There are some borderline ‘games’ specifically designed to test specific skills like programming, but in general, these are not typical retail titles that *surprise!* you need a skill you may not have to progress!

This really depends on what we consider to be a skill. Some people have suggested rhythm games - which require good hand-eye (or eye-foot in the case of DDR) coordination, but I would argue that those ARE already game-related skills.

Does application to a real trade or occupation constitute a skill? Like, “oh, let me get my Doctor buddy to play this game because it requires actual medical knowledge and diagnostic skills”? What percentage of jobs today even fall into this category?

My job is 5% advanced problem solving, 15% basic problem solving, 30% following (and/or creating) tedious workflows, and 40% interacting with internal or external clients (and of course, 100% time management). All of these are “skills” in the sense that someone could be good or bad at them, but there is no defined way to measure them or even prove them beyond arbitrarily associating metrics or anecdotes. Am I better at any given game because I possess these skills? I really don’t think so...

Conversely, I would not hire someone because they completed all of Tropico on the hardest difficulty, or won several Chess tournaments (games that, if in an abstract way, require many of the skills beneficial to the job). Having these skills that are hard to define is one thing, having the patience and presence of mind to be able to apply them in a variety of situations is another. (OK, maybe I would hire the chess champion)

Interestingly, two of the more accomplished people in my company have in the past, as a hobby, created their own maps for 1st person shooters... not something I would attribute as a valuable or even applicable skill, but here we are.

I agree, and some people aren't even taking the time to discuss why they think the game they mention fits into this discussion.

Really enjoyed this post. Reminded me of talking with my philosophy buddies. To me, 'skills' are basically something you can get better at with practice. Like how you can improve your 'game skills' by playing games.

So "non game skills" basically means not the standard 'twitch' reactionary (or hand-eye) stuff, learning the META, or being able to 'read' or predict what the enemy will do (like in fighting or SoulsBourne games). So FPS, platformers, RPGs, etc. are out, obviously.

Rhythm games are kind of in between to me, because while they do require 'game skills', they also require you to learn how to play in time with the music. This is still something anyone can learn, so I'm leaning more towards 'game skills'. You can, however, take these skills out into the real world and play music. Hence Rocksmith being mentioned in OP.

Strategy games too, fall in the middle for me, more on the 'game skills' side though. It's learning to game the system and put odds in your favor. It's specific to each game, and while they can help you learn to think faster or more strategic, it's not a 'non-game skill'.

Then there are those logic puzzle and programing games. I'd argue these are the least 'game skills', as you can't really bring your 'skills' from other games into these kinds of games. They rely totally on critical thinking, puzzle solving, etc. Especially evident in Myst and 7th Guest. Those 'skills' you use in your job aren't 'game skills', but they may help you in discovering the solution to a logic problem found in some games.

Didn't expect this to get so long, I've read through it a few times.. I hope it makes sense!

---

I am actually really good at playing The World Ends with You on my DS because I am ambidextrous

I've actually gotten better at this game because a large part of my job requires using both hands in different ways at the same time. (Glass-works, where I'm having to constantly adjust both hands to what the glass is doing in the flame.) I took a break from TWEWY, and after coming back to it I find I can actually control both characters semi-reliably! I'm really good at playing Co-Op by myself in the Switch version too.

 

[slaphappygamer]

Final fantasy vii taught me to manage money and prioritize my spending. Also taught me not to fall in love too hard, cuz, you know.


Also, I remember a 12 year old kid took his parents car for a joyride. When the cops pulled him over, they asked him where he learned to drive. The kid said grand theft auto. Not sure where this was, but it was shortly after vice city came out.

 

[Wolfy]

I know that there used to be this older Star Wars: Jabba Galaxy Games for the PC that my elementary computer lab would let us play. Quick search and all the memories started flooding back, bunch of the games actually tested my small mind back then, and I always couldn't wait to win enough to fly the ship.

Anyone else remember this heckin game?

 

[Taleweaver]

Ugh... Four pages, yet I'm the first to challenge the validity of this thread's premise aside @DS1 's post? I'd be disappointed if I expected different from y'all, GBATemp. Still :
Most notable to you, @FAST6191 : you'd be among the first to critic it if someone else made such a thread. I expected better, man.

So what am I talking about : easy... There is no such thing as a 'non game skill' if it's used in a game. While there are many definitions of what a game really is, (one of) the most simple one(s) hits out straight on :

A game is learning in a safe environment

Sure, most of us abbreviate things more, especially in the video game realm. We start by defining genres that cater to a specific skillset (hand-eye co-ordination, motoric skills, timing, priority taking, strategic and tactic thinking and so on), and then tend to be picky as to what games we play because of the feedback loop. Basically: we like to play games that'll hone and improve the skills we already have. In itself, there's nothing wrong with that. But it's still a limited set of what video gaming is, let alone what constitutes to a game.

You can, of course, start an entire discussion on what constitutes to being "fun", and whether or not it is a requirement of a game. My argument (see also the definition above) is that it's NOT a requirement. So all the edutainment games that try to teach you something about this world are, in fact, games. And games that let you solve classic puzzles (the towers of Hanoi, to name one) or have some other form of learning, intentional or not, require simply "skills" to be practiced...in a game. The notion of "gamer skills" versus "non gamer skills" is as pointless as one about "gamer hands" versus "non gamer hands". (please don't make your next topic about that )

As such, I find the answers interesting, though probably not because of the reasons intended. People giving programming examples are clearly unfamiliar with hacking games or the open-ended puzzle games Zachtronic games is best known for(1). And it's frankly more embarrassing to see people giving simple puzzle games as examples. I mean...not to offend the posters, but just how sucked up in your own little gaming bubble are you if you consider basic puzzle games to be using "non gamer skills" ? Jeez...I've written on how I dislike the term "gamer", though I can't deny I'm fitting the description (meaning: I play games). This is like visiting a traveller's convention and you find yourself surrounded by people calling themselves globetrotters when they visited their neighboring town.

Ahem...that said: some examples of "skills that are rarely (or only accidentally) used in games" are as follows:
-Leisure suit Larry in the land of the lounge lizards. This game (at least the original) was 18+, and in order to make sure the player was that old, the game started with a multiple choice pop quiz about real world events. Of course, this only INCREASED my intention to make it through (I was about ten at that time...and could hardly read or write, let alone in English)
-cook, serve, delicious series, as well as typing of the dead and Epistory are all variants of typing games. Basically: it tangentially learns you how to type faultless.
-tabletop simulator. I need the above definition to label it as a game, because while it does allow you to play board games, it is mostly a tool to create board games. Meaning: well over 3/4th of my time is spent on scanning images, laying out tables and learning to script things.
-the board game Detective. Most (if not all other?) board games confine you to use the components you've got. Detective lives up to its name in that you can't solve the adventure that way. You'll need to research story elements, find out how to use aspects and so on, basically doing exactly what it says on the box: being a detective.



(1): while he was probably first to explore the genre, others are starting to come in. Silicon zeroes, while true:learn() and Neon noodles fall well within this genre, and games like uplink, sattelite reign and a few others dive into the idea of learning how to hack without breaking any actual laws

 

[HaloEffect17]

Picross

 

[MaxiBash]

Probably Minecraft, or at least, when you're put into creative mode. After that, you can do whatever the hell you want to, since you don't have to craft anything.

 

[kaputnik]

The MotoGP series. Having some roadracing experience really helps, even if you only know the basics, like when to brake or open up the throttle, how to take bends, or what tires to choose depending on the weather conditions.

 

[zxr750j]

"Denki Block!s" surprised me back then (played the GBA version), it looks so easy and playful but some levels were surprisingly hard. Lately I really liked "Mini Metro" on the Switch (check it out!). And (also mentioned before by another user) "Keep Talking and Nobody Explodes" requires rarely uses skills rarely used nowadays (something called "communication").

 

[Agahniim]

Mario Party teaches you how to be a total dickhead to your friends and family

 

[DarthDub]

I wonder if Mr. Bones on Sega Saturn counts? That game has multiple genre shifts that it can kinda throw you off guard.

 

[pedro702]

typing of the dead xD

 

[Arras]

There's some simulator games that probably count. Try downloading this and getting the helicopter off the ground without any prior knowledge of how to control one. The same goes for things like assembling the car in My Summer Car.

 

[UltraDolphinRevolution]

You might remember the optional picture puzzle in Zelda: The Wind Waker (in Link´s house). The same type of puzzle is obligatory in Fatal Frame 4 (Wii). But there strategies to make those easier. I found the info online.

 

[FAST6191]

Ugh... Four pages, yet I'm the first to challenge the validity of this thread's premise aside @DS1 's post? I'd be disappointed if I expected different from y'all, GBATemp. Still :
Most notable to you, @FAST6191 : you'd be among the first to critic it if someone else made such a thread. I expected better, man.

So what am I talking about : easy... There is no such thing as a 'non game skill' if it's used in a game. While there are many definitions of what a game really is, (one of) the most simple one(s) hits out straight on :

A game is learning in a safe environment

Sure, most of us abbreviate things more, especially in the video game realm. We start by defining genres that cater to a specific skillset (hand-eye co-ordination, motoric skills, timing, priority taking, strategic and tactic thinking and so on), and then tend to be picky as to what games we play because of the feedback loop. Basically: we like to play games that'll hone and improve the skills we already have. In itself, there's nothing wrong with that. But it's still a limited set of what video gaming is, let alone what constitutes to a game.

You can, of course, start an entire discussion on what constitutes to being "fun", and whether or not it is a requirement of a game. My argument (see also the definition above) is that it's NOT a requirement. So all the edutainment games that try to teach you something about this world are, in fact, games. And games that let you solve classic puzzles (the towers of Hanoi, to name one) or have some other form of learning, intentional or not, require simply "skills" to be practiced...in a game. The notion of "gamer skills" versus "non gamer skills" is as pointless as one about "gamer hands" versus "non gamer hands". (please don't make your next topic about that )

As such, I find the answers interesting, though probably not because of the reasons intended. People giving programming examples are clearly unfamiliar with hacking games or the open-ended puzzle games Zachtronic games is best known for(1). And it's frankly more embarrassing to see people giving simple puzzle games as examples. I mean...not to offend the posters, but just how sucked up in your own little gaming bubble are you if you consider basic puzzle games to be using "non gamer skills" ? Jeez...I've written on how I dislike the term "gamer", though I can't deny I'm fitting the description (meaning: I play games). This is like visiting a traveller's convention and you find yourself surrounded by people calling themselves globetrotters when they visited their neighboring town.

Ahem...that said: some examples of "skills that are rarely (or only accidentally) used in games" are as follows:
-Leisure suit Larry in the land of the lounge lizards. This game (at least the original) was 18+, and in order to make sure the player was that old, the game started with a multiple choice pop quiz about real world events. Of course, this only INCREASED my intention to make it through (I was about ten at that time...and could hardly read or write, let alone in English)
-cook, serve, delicious series, as well as typing of the dead and Epistory are all variants of typing games. Basically: it tangentially learns you how to type faultless.
-tabletop simulator. I need the above definition to label it as a game, because while it does allow you to play board games, it is mostly a tool to create board games. Meaning: well over 3/4th of my time is spent on scanning images, laying out tables and learning to script things.
-the board game Detective. Most (if not all other?) board games confine you to use the components you've got. Detective lives up to its name in that you can't solve the adventure that way. You'll need to research story elements, find out how to use aspects and so on, basically doing exactly what it says on the box: being a detective.



(1): while he was probably first to explore the genre, others are starting to come in. Silicon zeroes, while true:learn() and Neon noodles fall well within this genre, and games like uplink, sattelite reign and a few others dive into the idea of learning how to hack without breaking any actual laws

I've got one more game to mention here, Duskers. It relies on planing, strategy, resource management, being able to keep calm in disasters, AND programing.

This one may be good for those who liked Shenzhen I/O.

You control a set of drones, via command line, to board derelict space ships and collect supplies for your journey through space. You can even make macros or small scripts to execute, but I never figured it out. I actually never got very far in this game as I'm still not too good at programing.

I may need to take another try, now that I've been learning some basic programing (skills? lol). This video kind of shows how it requires some 'non games skills'.

---

I agree, and some people aren't even taking the time to discuss why they think the game they mention fits into this discussion.

Really enjoyed this post. Reminded me of talking with my philosophy buddies. To me, 'skills' are basically something you can get better at with practice. Like how you can improve your 'game skills' by playing games.

So "non game skills" basically means not the standard 'twitch' reactionary (or hand-eye) stuff, learning the META, or being able to 'read' or predict what the enemy will do (like in fighting or SoulsBourne games). So FPS, platformers, RPGs, etc. are out, obviously.

Rhythm games are kind of in between to me, because while they do require 'game skills', they also require you to learn how to play in time with the music. This is still something anyone can learn, so I'm leaning more towards 'game skills'. You can, however, take these skills out into the real world and play music. Hence Rocksmith being mentioned in OP.

Strategy games too, fall in the middle for me, more on the 'game skills' side though. It's learning to game the system and put odds in your favor. It's specific to each game, and while they can help you learn to think faster or more strategic, it's not a 'non-game skill'.

Then there are those logic puzzle and programing games. I'd argue these are the least 'game skills', as you can't really bring your 'skills' from other games into these kinds of games. They rely totally on critical thinking, puzzle solving, etc. Especially evident in Myst and 7th Guest. Those 'skills' you use in your job aren't 'game skills', but they may help you in discovering the solution to a logic problem found in some games.

Didn't expect this to get so long, I've read through it a few times.. I hope it makes sense!

---

I've actually gotten better at this game because a large part of my job requires using both hands in different ways at the same time. (Glass-works, where I'm having to constantly adjust both hands to what the glass is doing in the flame.) I took a break from TWEWY, and after coming back to it I find I can actually control both characters semi-reliably! I'm really good at playing Co-Op by myself in the Switch version too.

I will stand by the premise of the thread. I could possibly have set the scene better (a problem I have had with this "series" since the start) and there have been some dubious selections even then but I will stand by it.
Perhaps a better phrasing will be assuming you have baseline language skills*, rudimentary maths and can reasonably hit a button within a second to react to something, something possibly telegraphed as well, and/or keep a few variables (or grind past it) in your head that you can play things you can do most games. Anything "new" is likely something that can be taught in 20 minutes at worst, or if a bit longer then 20 minutes early on and at one or two more 20 minute intervals including "practice" scattered a bit later into the game. In most instances said 20 minutes is mostly practice and possibly more getting used to the given implementation of what is at its core a fairly stock system. The given implementation might not click for you, or might be poorly implemented, but that is a different matter.
I don't necessarily disagree with a statement that gaming skills are skills in their own right either (this guy has a fascinating series getting his wife to play games despite her not really playing them or being familiar with the, for want of a better term, language of games and various ted talks also contemplate things at length -- if 10000 hours makes you an expert there is a decent chance this thread is a meeting of them, just nobody is quite sure what that expertise particularly affords and anybody that monetises that is going to make a packet), however the overwhelming majority of games fall within what are fairly narrow confines, something TheCasualties starts to codify and I think made a slightly more generalised version for above.
To that end I will maybe expand upon the music example. I can't read sheet music, made a serious effort once to learn but not a chance (I also have no rhythm at all in general, even if fast, precise and repetitive is something I am very good at, until I get bored of repetition anyway) though both in general curiosity and because I like observing "unknown tribes" I will watch videos on fairly in depth music theory. I was serious that if a game presented me with a basic play this 16 note section on this virtual piano to open the door I am there for hours with a reference guide to transcribe it where likely some 10 year old that had some piano lessons would be straight through. Make it even marginally complex (never mind go all black page) and... hopefully there is a workaround or I am making a cheat or finding a friend, though I do wonder if my lack of musical talent would mean I have no qualms at all about doing something in something other than 4:4 (for whatever reason I have a lot of it in my collection, and would not have noted anything strange or different about it). You are certainly not going to reliably teach sheet music in 20 minutes. I might even try an analogy with that 4:4 stuff; while it has changed a bit in the west with the whole Brubeck thing I am told anything other than 4:4 or whole number multiplications of that I get the impression it is outside of many a musician's comfort zone even if they are massively skilled within it. Most game designers would not include such a thing even if it is a perfectly valid test of skills. Most don't have serious language puzzles (or made up languages saving that they were made up for something else and can be included by virtue of that).

Sometimes the skills can't be easily replicated within current computers. In real life I am a forensic metallurgist, which is to say I know why metal things fall over (or can after I spend many hours examining something). No crafting in a game, even the really hardcore Japanese blacksmith games, have ever come close to metal simulation, and forensics are mostly crime based and a slight twist on point and click (no consideration at all given to destructive, non destructive and partially destructive testing, maybe once or twice in a series is there a time constraint and calibration and probabilities... yeah) but at the same time that is likely more of a lack of ability to simulate... physics much like AI to play collectible card games means true custom deck is unlikely to happen any time too soon and both to why a pen and paper role playing game is going to be a real world (even if augmented, or reasonably allowing remote, by tech nowadays if you wanted) thing for the time being. I did however see a car design game (see beamng drive video of the designer and guide to making your own models) that pretty accurately simulated constraints and how bumping tolerances and performance bumped price and reliability, as well as physics, and the kerbal stuff is a nice start on that front, so there is some hope there.
I am also going to have to go looking for a machining based game as well -- modern CAD, CNC and CAM are more than suitable as the basis for a game, and when I play with them to try to keep myself halfway sharp on them (being an engineer that does not like CAD, or at least not the idea of spending all work day playing with it for 50 years, is not quite as bad as being a doctor that does not like blood but seemingly not so very far off and probably about as a limiting) I do literally make my own games/play/challenges rather than go through tutorials.
The hacking stuff was an interesting one as well. I think I can see why you question either its inclusion in the opening or in replies (though going a bit meta most of this whole series has "expand your range" as a not so subtly hidden underlying concept, and if I can get some good suggestions for things, and have others share their own examples to save me typing up mine, then so much the better -- game design is mind control and all that) and the whole hackme and ARG scene(s) stands in stark defiance of it not being a popular notion but it is still something that does not fit the 20 minutes notion.

Someone mentioned lockpicking earlier. One of the examples that has stuck with me for years is I was once playing a nominally educational game back in on some old 386 era machines the school had. Wander around a creepy castle/mansion type affair but largely text and ASCII graphics. It had you try to make a master key (mortice lock, though such things are common to this day around here) from blanks on a fireplace. Always remember that one. Struggled a bit with it as well as we had not yet done the whole graphs/coordinates approach that would probably have seen me do it in seconds today.

I saw pokemon mentioned as well with the type mechanics not necessarily being too abstract to make things tedious. I might have to expand upon that one. For those of a certain age (and those a bit older will probably have Seiken Densetsu: Final Fantasy Gaiden/Final Fantasy Adventure/Mystic Quest) the whole my first RPG/RPG light thing does mean something. However that would probably be a different thread.

*though I was curious to see how some in a given area, or let's just say ping region, find themselves left out by virtue of not necessarily speaking the dominant language. English is the world's (almost certainly most of Europe's) second language and if you want to play games you stand an even greater chance of knowing it so yeah.


I am not sure I have a concluding thought at this point but hopefully I have at least illustrated something of where I am coming from with this one.

 

[Zense]

[...]but at the same time that is likely more of a lack of ability to simulate... physics [...]

Hopefully when we're done with ray tracing we can continue to see progress being made in simulating physics (other than lighting/surface details). Shortly after HL2 there was a hope that we would see it being focused on, but now we're stuck with situations where for example the latest Gears of War game has worse physics than its predecessor... which came out years before, maybe even a console generation before, if my memory serves me right.

 

[medoli900]

Hacknet is a good example, since you have to navigate in the game using shell commands. Sure there's some UI that can help moving from IP to IP, but it's far from being efficient. You'd also need some HTML background for some of the achievement, and if you want to do some shit and giggle with the game internal code, from within the game itself.

I'd like to see a game where you have to apply actual chemistry knowledge, especially organic chemistry.

 

[toguro_max]

Carmen San Diego, before the Internet it required either save scumming or knowledge of Geography.
(...)

Although it falls into the category of "edutainment", it's always good to mention Carmen Sandiego.
Also, any Lucas Arts / Scumm / Point and Click game, specially from the '80s / '90s.

I'd like to point one "game" that I believe falls totally into this category, but didn't see anyone mentioning it:

Not Porn: Really, when I read the thread title, it immediately came in into mind. It's a "game" you play on your browser where you need to employ a plethora of techniques in order to advance, like (but not limited to): analyzing the page's source code, audio manipulation and general knowledge.