Does the pre-owned and used market kill the gaming industry?

alphamule

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And those restrictions are very new compared to the other mediums that most resemble games(books/movies). Kind of like the "notice not required for copyrights" thing that makes it so that it's practically impossible to copy photographs without negatives anymore.

This restrictions aren't often even moral, if even legal. Sadly, if they are determined to be illegal, someone will just pay a lobbyist and presto - legal! If people start to complain, just hire a spin artist and marketers and even the moral issues can be solved. After all, if people expect to pay $5 for the digital version of a game that is selling used on disc for $15, and not be able to resell it, then that would likely not be as unacceptable to most people. College books work this way, of course.

It's possible to have box office sales of $300m and spend $400m on a movie, by the way. It's hard to know the real profits/losses of studios though, because of the way they try to avoid taxes.
 

purplesludge

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My posts concern the sale and transfer of games other than through a retailer that gives a cut to ther developer.
And my post said that's tantamount to piracy.


It says that, if control is given under a certain license, resale can be restricted. Restrictions can be placed on the sale and transfer of goods all the time, but it is not inherent.
All games today are sold under such a licence. We're not talking about SNES games here, we're talking about current titles.
Where can I read this license?
 

marcus134

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Where can I read this license?
there's a short version on the game box and a long one inside the game and/or on the games website

example:
BFBC2 (PC):
on the box:
online feature are limited to one account per serial code and is non transferable. (says nothing about offline feature)
inside the disc:
"Through this purchase, you are acquiring and EA grants you a personal, limited, non-exclusive license to install and use the Software for your non-commercial use solely as set forth in this License and the accompanying documentation. Your acquired rights are subject to your compliance with this Agreement. Any commercial use is prohibited. You are expressly prohibited from sub-licensing, renting, leasing or otherwise distributing the Software or rights to use the Software, except by transfer as expressly set forth in paragraph 2 below. The term of your License shall commence on the date that you install or otherwise use the Software, and shall end on the earlier of the date that you dispose of or transfer the Software; or EA's termination of this License.
[...]
You may make a one-time permanent transfer of all your rights to install and use the Software to another individual or legal entity provided that: (a) the Technical Protection Measures used by the Software supports such transfers; (b) you also transfer this License and all copies of the Software; © you retain no copies of the Software, upgrades, updates or prior versions; and (d) the receiving party accepts the terms and conditions of this License. Such transfer may not include access to any online feature, service or functionality, or right thereto, including updates, patches, unlocked or downloadable content, dynamically served content and other online features and/or services that require registration with the enclosed access code, that are limited to one user account and/or that are otherwise non-transferable."

Splinter cell: double agent:
on the box:
usual copyright shit about logo character and design.
inside the disc:
"Ubisoft grants the User a non-exclusive and non-transferable Licence to use the Multimedia Product, but remains the owner of all the rights relating thereto.
Any rights not specifically transferred by this Licence remain the property of Ubisoft.
The Multimedia Product is licensed and not sold to the User, for private use.
The Licence does not confer any right or title to the Multimedia Product and cannot be understood as a transfer of intellectual property rights to the Multimedia Product.
[...]
The User cannot sell, sublicense or lease the Multimedia Product to a third party.
The User can only transfer the Multimedia Product if the recipient agrees to the terms and conditions of the Licence. In this event, the User undertakes to transfer all components and documentation relating to the Multimedia Product. He also undertakes to delete any copy of the Multimedia Product from his computer. In this event, this Licence is automatically and immediately terminated."

The thing about terms agreement and those kind of stuff is that quite often, companies put invalid clauses in them, or clause that are valid in some countries but not in others. One of the main problems that affect most legal systems in the world is the use of invalid or abusive clause because company can coerce into paying/sue a person (most of the time poor people that can't defend themselves), and the defendant has to prove that the clause is not applicable.

The splinter cell license is amusing to read as the owner can't transfer the use of the product but can transfer the product which actually forfeit the point of transferring the product in the first place. it's like saying you can transfer a nut cracker but not its nut cracking ability.

Also the second paragraph ("the user cannot sell ... the multimedia product") is invalid in the u.s. as it goes against the first sale doctrine. ("distribution rights of a copyright holder end on that particular copy once the copy is lawfully transferred")

judgement:
software licensing (adobe) Long: http://www.tabberone...beSystems.shtml Short: http://www.tabberone...Systems_A.shtml
not for resale clause is invalid: Long:http://www.tabberone...oyAugusto.shtml Short: http://www.tabberone...Augusto_A.shtml
Shrinkwrap license aren't enforceable: Short http://cyber.law.har...s/stepsumm.html
 

Smuff

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You can print anything you like. Upholding it in a court of law is another matter entirely.

If the second hand market is hurting the industry so much and is a breach of these licences, why are there not massive lawsuits from the gaming companies to shut down the practice of selling used games in the same way they shut down torrent sites etc ? Because they would not win as no laws are being broken, simple as that.

If it was legal to enforce these licences, the software companies would have done so by now.

It's all a load of bollocks.
 

alphamule

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Where can I read this license?
there's a short version on the game box and a long one inside the game and/or on the games website
If the buyer is that lucky to actually see them before breaking the "can't return it" seal, and they don't have a "if you want to continue to use this game online(and it's an online game), you must agree to new terms we post every month in the middle of a 50-page document" loophole. ;)

You can print anything you like. Upholding it in a court of law is another matter entirely.

If the second hand market is hurting the industry so much and is a breach of these licences, why are there not massive lawsuits from the gaming companies to shut down the practice of selling used games in the same way they shut down torrent sites etc ? Because they would not win as no laws are being broken, simple as that.

If it was legal to enforce these licences, the software companies would have done so by now.

It's all a load of bollocks.
[
Try opening a used-games store in Tokyo. Actually, that applies to used hardware sales and game rentals? I think I misunderstood.

Edit
http://en.akihabaranews.com/6699/legacy-unused/pc/2nd-hand-electronics-sales-will-soon-be-illegal-in-japan
Does anyone have a link to any articles showing what actually got enacted?

http://www.1up.com/boards/posts/list/54626.page
http://www.ithinkimlost.com/japan-jet-school-related/10206-why-cant-you-rent-games-japan.html

Yeah, it's the rentals and old hardware. My bad...
 

Rydian

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My posts concern the sale and transfer of games other than through a retailer that gives a cut to ther developer.
And my post said that's tantamount to piracy.
Then so is selling a used lawnmower. Transferring a physical product containing IP to another person without direct consent of the originator and without them getting any profit.

If you apply the same logic to a different product and it suddenly seems stupid, maybe the logic isn't sound (or in many cases the logic is just too broad).

It says that, if control is given under a certain license, resale can be restricted. Restrictions can be placed on the sale and transfer of goods all the time, but it is not inherent.
All games today are sold under such a licence. We're not talking about SNES games here, we're talking about current titles.
I don't remember a time limit being mentioned. That said, it's not inherent, and it'd only take one example without that clause to prove your statement incorrect anyways (as stated above, your logic is too broad).

>Rydian says this topic isn't about piracy.
>Derails the topic to a different topic anyway.

'Kay.
tl;dr'd, much?

My posts have been about reselling and giving away used games. That's the topic of this thread, as stated in the first post and the title of the thread.
 

tbgtbg

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Treating the customers like cash cows is killing the gaming industry, not the used market.
 

marcus134

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If the buyer is that lucky to actually see them before breaking the "can't return it" seal, and they don't have a "if you want to continue to use this game online(and it's an online game), you must agree to new terms we post every month in the middle of a 50-page document" loophole. ;)
1. I don't know in the U.S. but here, in Quebec, if you open a software box and realize that you're in disagreement with the included terms, you can return the software even if you broke the seal and even if it's part of the store policy to not accept software return, the retailer is obligated to refund the customer.
2. you probably missed the point about shrinkwrap contracts at bottom of my previous post, which aren't enforceable. I believe there's a strong point of defense in there, when purchasing a software you technically sign a purchase contract (even if you don't literally sign the invoice), however the content of the contract is hidden from you until you open the box which doesn't make sense at all.
 

purplesludge

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Oh cool a EULA from one company. Are you saying that there isn't some general rules and that each game must be covered by an all encompassing EULA that does't work in the US?
Example I'm assuming that EULA isn't valid since gamestop purchases and resells copies of Rockstar games.
 

alphamule

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If the buyer is that lucky to actually see them before breaking the "can't return it" seal, and they don't have a "if you want to continue to use this game online(and it's an online game), you must agree to new terms we post every month in the middle of a 50-page document" loophole. ;)
1. I don't know in the U.S. but here, in Quebec, if you open a software box and realize that you're in disagreement with the included terms, you can return the software even if you broke the seal and even if it's part of the store policy to not accept software return, the retailer is obligated to refund the customer.
2. you probably missed the point about shrinkwrap contracts at bottom of my previous post, which aren't enforceable. I believe there's a strong point of defense in there, when purchasing a software you technically sign a purchase contract (even if you don't literally sign the invoice), however the content of the contract is hidden from you until you open the box which doesn't make sense at all.
No, I got it, but even if they're valid, they're being applied in a way that is generally considered illegal (actually, I think the term is unbinding for civil law - it's an 1-sided 'agreement' like some crackpot writing on piece of paper that you owe them 5 billion US dollars for permission to breath their air). Yeah, it's generally only considered legal on certain kinds of terms and products. For example, if you agree to a term saying that you have to subscribe to play World of Warcraft. It even says on the box if you can still find it in store, that it requires an online subscription=repay over and over and over and... Someone would find it hard to argue in front of even the most friendly court that you should be able to play without fulfilling the charge needed to have a subscription. I could use hyperbole about 'first-born child' clauses but the real ones are pretty bad, already! Like the 'no review' clause I mentioned. Last I checked, slavery was illegal. ;)

Look into the license of PC3000 or Salvation Data's HD Doctor. They have a good reason to worry about reverse-engineering. The PC3000 cards are essentially dongles that act as a hard drive controller. Nothing keeps someone from recording a log between the SATA end points or with a 2-device EIDE cable, though. The kinds of people buying it are just wanting something that works and gets fast turn-around times and doesn't require them to spend all their time reverse-engineering HDD firmwares. The people capable of reversing the data recovery (read: HDD firmware hacking) tools are more into it to make clones or to save themselves the 6-digit figures needed in paying people to figure out vendor codes. But PC3000 is really relying on honesty/laziness/vested-interests/reputation of 'dud' clones to protect their software. It's a niche software, so I'm not sure if it's completely the same as mainstream games like Splinter Cell. I tried that on my stepbrother's Xbox and thought it was kind of cool. It's one of the few games that I'd probably prefer on a console. Yeah, I normally prefer PC's but I'm no console-bigot if the game runs well. ;)

In the US, it wildly varies by state? I know that each state has different consumer-seller laws.

An interesting article: http://www.azubu.com...0/re_url/voices
Pretty damn funny: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-11-21-video-game-rentals-to-eradicate-pre-owned-sales
 

Guild McCommunist

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You can print anything you like. Upholding it in a court of law is another matter entirely.

If the second hand market is hurting the industry so much and is a breach of these licences, why are there not massive lawsuits from the gaming companies to shut down the practice of selling used games in the same way they shut down torrent sites etc ? Because they would not win as no laws are being broken, simple as that.

If it was legal to enforce these licences, the software companies would have done so by now.

It's all a load of bollocks.

Considering most of the retailers of video games also sell used games, effectively cutting off one of their largest sources of their retailer's revenue cuts theirs. It's kinda like separating yourself from you conjoined twin brother because he slept with your girlfriend. You really want to take that kitchen knife and do it but in the end you'll both end up dead.
 

Rydian

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Because I forgot to do it earlier... Here's where I, for like the 80th time, point out that an EULA/ToS cannot override law and game companies know that (mainly to go along with Smuff's post).

Since Veho pointed out recent games, I'll include a snippet from a game for the Wii after the Wii's EULA to point out that while they damn well want to control what you can do, they can only do it so far before overstepping the law.

Wii, EULA.
Article 16: Agreement Interpretation
If any part of this agreement is found to be invalid or unenforceable, that part of the agreement will no longer apply. You agree that the invalid part will be considered deleted from the agreement, but that all other parts of the agreement will remain in effect. You further agree that we may replace the invalid part by a provision which reflects or comes closest to reflecting the initial intention.

Wii, Backyard Football, page 21 of the manual.
MISCELLANEOUS
If any provision or portion of this EULA is found to be unlawful, void, or for any reason
unenforceable, it will be severed from and in no way affect the validity or enforceability of
the remaining provisions of the EULA.
 

Veho

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And my post said that's tantamount to piracy.
Then so is selling a used lawnmower.
Only if selling a used lawnmower gives the buyer the right to use the blueprints and company logo any way he sees fit.

If you apply the same logic to a different product and it suddenly seems stupid, maybe the logic isn't sound.
If you apply a different set of values to the same product based on how it's distributed, maybe your logic is flawed.

Since Veho pointed out recent games, I'll include a snippet from a game for the Wii after the Wii's EULA to point out that while they damn well want to control what you can do, they can only do it so far before overstepping the law.
And I'll (again) point out that the "games are licenced, not sold" part of the agreement is not overstepping the law in any way and has been upheld by the court. That part of the agreement is valid, if somewhat fiddly to enforce because pursuing every individual resale is like punching fog.
 

alphamule

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Actually, having the lawn mower in front of me lets me modify it... thus making a derivative device. And not pay a patent fee. The people selling new ones must hate that I can add/refurbish my own air intakes and fuel filters and plugs instead of buying a brand new one every Summer! Imagine trying to sell a lawnmower that can't use standard plugs... And suing people for cleaning their old filters or using a different piece of foam with the same flow properties. Ouch! Of course, most people would just look at the "oh wow, that one's cheap" price and then get nailed 10 months down the line for the filters and nonstandard-slotted plugs from the same store.

Also, I'm not sure if Nintendo ever liked the Game Genie or ever will. Technically a game cheat/mod is the same as a derivative work. :P

Patents and copyrights are... special and different.
 

Rydian

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And my post said that's tantamount to piracy.
Then so is selling a used lawnmower.
Only if selling a used lawnmower gives the buyer the right to use the blueprints and company logo any way he sees fit.
But you're the one saying that selling or giving away a used game is tantamount to piracy? That's not what happens with used games though. If I sell a used game to somebody, the same sort of transfer happens when a place like Gamestop sold the original to me. I'm getting a copy of it to play, I do not have any rights to reproduce it. The copyright of the IP holder is still intact, no additional copies have been created.

I used the lawnmower comparison to show that applying the same sort of ideas/restrictions to other products would be silly, but it seems that's not going over very well, so let's say books are another example. Books are much easier to think of in comparison to what sold games really are. A good, a physical copy transferred to you, that contains IP and copywritten stuff all throughout it. As somebody mentioned before, people are buying a physical thing, but they're not buying it for the paper, they're buying it for the words. The fact that it's a physical container and representation of ideas means to either teach or entertain, so people buy the physical thing in order to get education/entertainment out of it.

But I don't think that selling a book you've already read is morally wrong. Yard sales? Used book stores? Hell, libraries might even count, I don't think they need to get permission from every single copyright holder involved in every single book they have on-hand.

If you apply the same logic to a different product and it suddenly seems stupid, maybe the logic isn't sound.
If you apply a different set of values to the same product based on how it's distributed, maybe your logic is flawed.
Check up on your history.
  • The entire concept of goods versus services has existed for hundreds of years. Hell, here's a book from 1887 discussing the differences (in regards to the trade issues of the day).
  • Last I checked It's taught in secondary (middle) school when kids learn the basics about businesses. There's online resources for instructors strewn about.
  • It's taught in business classes since it's such an important concept, and there's plenty of books that cover it, at least in part.
This is NOT my idea, the fact that an entire section of the US patent and trademark office is dedicated to recording the differences should show that, and also show how important of a concept it is.

Since Veho pointed out recent games, I'll include a snippet from a game for the Wii after the Wii's EULA to point out that while they damn well want to control what you can do, they can only do it so far before overstepping the law.
And I'll (again) point out that the "games are licenced, not sold" part of the agreement is not overstepping the law in any way and has been upheld by the court. That part of the agreement is valid, if somewhat fiddly to enforce because pursuing every individual resale is like punching fog.
WoW's online play is a service, so the software was being modified in order to tamper with the service, so I'll argue on one hand that that's what made this decision overstep normal bounds...

But on the other hand, I haven't been just discussing law. It's well-known that the big companies often hold the law in their hand unfairly, I'm discussing morals and whether it actually hurts them (which is the actual topic, not legality).

I stand firm, if reselling used games is such a detriment, then so is reselling books and lawnmowers.
 

Veho

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Took me a while to get to writing this post, because long, argumented posts are not my thing. I prefer short, trolling ones :ha:

But you're the one saying that selling or giving away a used game is tantamount to piracy? That's not what happens with used games though. If I sell a used game to somebody, the same sort of transfer happens when a place like Gamestop sold the original to me.
When selling a new game, Gamestop hasn't installed or played the game and therefore isn't bound by the licencing agreement (but more importantly, they aren't playing the game, they are a method of distribution, not the end user). When buying and reselling used games, they're just being dicks. They're making a (massive) profit off of games without giving a cent to the authors. It's bootlegging with a slightly more limited supply.

I used the lawnmower comparison to show that applying the same sort of ideas/restrictions to other products would be silly, but it seems that's not going over very well
Because the comparison breaks down very fast.

so let's say books are another example. Books are much easier to think of in comparison to what sold games really are. A good, a physical copy transferred to you, that contains IP and copywritten stuff all throughout it. As somebody mentioned before, people are buying a physical thing, but they're not buying it for the paper, they're buying it for the words. The fact that it's a physical container and representation of ideas means to either teach or entertain, so people buy the physical thing in order to get education/entertainment out of it.
But books also contain all the necessary hardware to display the IP, making them more akin to those LCD games :tpi:

But yes, that's the valid comparison. The physical book is a medium to hold and distribute the contents. And like you said yourself, people aren't buying it for the paper, they are buying it for the text. The physical object is just storage. You're not buying it for the paper, you're buying it for the idea. You're paying for access to the idea. The paper is a way of giving you access to the idea, but the paper is not the idea, and the idea is not the paper. So we have the distinction between the storage and the content down.

What makes the idea an integral (and resellable) part of the storage in books is the first sale doctrine, which, ignoring completely the distinction of data and storage, says owning the paper gives ownership of the text as well, and the author can go soak his head. It's not logically inherent, it's legally defined that way.


But I don't think that selling a book you've already read is morally wrong. Yard sales? Used book stores? Hell, libraries might even count, I don't think they need to get permission from every single copyright holder involved in every single book they have on-hand.
It's not like the copyright holder has any say in the matter one way or another.

There is a thing called a public lending right, that acknowledges the author's right to receive royalties for every person that reads his book. The droit de suite grants the artist a fee for every resale of his work. A similar act exists in the US. It recognizes the author's right to receive royalties for every resale of his work under certain conditions (and while the whole "games are(n't) art" thing is debatable, a parallel can be drawn here between art galleries and Gamestop). I admit I, too, am not inclined to grant a sculptor the resale fee, but it often pops up in used books discussions, and it's a valid view on the morality of the transaction.

Morally, the author deserves compensation for every person that gains access to his work (i.e. the text, in case of books), because that's what's being sold here. The author might (and probably will) choose to fortfeit that right in exchange for exposure (i.e. used book sales and libraries), keeping his works in circulation, making them available to a wider audience (and also chasing down every resale is impossible and more trouble than it's worth). Would a business model where you force everyone to pay you royalties for taking a peek at your work? Hell no, it would fail and fail hard. With stuff that is pure creative output, you bombard people with your work until some of them decide to give you money. But does that mean people have an inherent "right" to someone's work? No.

This is NOT my idea, the fact that an entire section of the US patent and trademark office is dedicated to recording the differences should show that, and also show how important of a concept it is.
It doesn't make the logic any less flawed. But then again their job isn't to use logic, it's to draw arbitrary lines and enforce them. The "software on a CD is different from downloaded software" distinction stems from the first sale doctrine, not the other way around, and you can't convince me anyone in the decision process gave a rat's ass about "concepts".

That's where the software licence comes in. It is legal and legally binding, and while rulings in various cases vary, they all say that "if it looks like a sale, it's a sale, if it looks like a licence it's a licence", and that if you at any point agree to the licence (by installing the software, if you were warned beforehand, or clicking on "I Accept" anywhere in the purchase or installation process) you are bound by it, including where it says "no resale", because that part of the agreement is legal.

And since software is licenced and not sold, neither the goods VS service issue nor the first sale doctrine apply, despite the tangible physical bits.

But on the other hand, I haven't been just discussing law. It's well-known that the big companies often hold the law in their hand unfairly, I'm discussing morals and whether it actually hurts them (which is the actual topic, not legality).
Legally, software isn't sold, it's licenced. Morally, it is wrong to acquire access to software without paying the author a dime.

Does it actually hurt them? Too many arguments to both sides, with no easy way to check any of the theories. I'm going to say "maybe".

lawnmowers
Now you're just being facetious.
 

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Legally, software isn't sold, it's licenced. Morally, it is wrong to acquire access to software without paying the author a dime.

Does it actually hurt them? Too many arguments to both sides, with no easy way to check any of the theories. I'm going to say "maybe".
It really depends on the definition. In most countries video game licenses (as far as discs and cartridges are concerned) state that the lawful holder of the disc/cartridge/whatever other medium used is the holder of the license. In this definition, the lawful holder is the person who purchased the disc, regardless of whether it was bought first or second-hand. Moreover, I'm pretty sure they also state that selling the disc/cartridge equals forfeiting your claims as far as license is concerned - otherwise it would be legal to buy a game, dump it and return it to the store.

Unfortunatelly I am too lazy to actually look through a document like this for meaningful quotes, but in practice that's how it works where I live. The idea is that the "first person who purchased the game new" has paid the "tribute to the author" for this particular copy. It's "paying tribute for one copy several times" that would be unfair.
 

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