Gaming Your thoughts on Hotz v. SCEA?

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

Trolls will be trolls, pirates will be pirates, and ninjas will be ninjas. Hotz will be Hotz, and that's why you dislike him. Everybody is entitled to their opinion (although I dislike him too). People can make an argument based on their opinion, but others will find it a weak argument.

My opinion is that Megaman's counter-argument is as his own analogy - "as solid as a wet tissue paper". In response, I say please don't feed the trolls, and leave the arguing to the people who get paid for it - the layers in the case. I don't need to justify my opinion - the trolls and the pirates and the ninjas will probably do that for me.

The fact that antwill's is a weak argument, and precisely that, makes it clear that his aimless teeth-gnashing must be opposed. I have already reported him because he has engaged in this behavior in other threads and shows no signs of stopping. If you have any further reasons for why you consider my counterargument to like that of my own analogy, please present it. Otherwise, your objections come off as nothing more than cynical, sterile, neutrality. True, people have their opinions, and they will clash and differ in many aspects. But antwill's opinion is weak and largely unsubstantiated because the brunt of his venom stems from his personal dislike of George Hotz. This has led him to imply many weak pro-Sony positions in this thread alone and it does not invalidate what I've said. Troll though antwill may be, it does not mean that he should be allowed to enforce his misinformation. Sony does not deserve to be defended, and antwill is using Hotz as a strawman and personally attacks anybody who has pointed out the flaws in his argument.

@synce: Er...you're welcome?

 

[antwill]

Trolls will be trolls, pirates will be pirates, and ninjas will be ninjas. Hotz will be Hotz, and that's why you dislike him. Everybody is entitled to their opinion (although I dislike him too). People can make an argument based on their opinion, but others will find it a weak argument.

My opinion is that Megaman's counter-argument is as his own analogy - "as solid as a wet tissue paper". In response, I say please don't feed the trolls, and leave the arguing to the people who get paid for it - the layers in the case. I don't need to justify my opinion - the trolls and the pirates and the ninjas will probably do that for me.

The fact that antwill's is a weak argument, and precisely that, makes it clear that his aimless teeth-gnashing must be opposed. I have already reported him because he has engaged in this behavior in other threads and shows no signs of stopping. If you have any further reasons for why you consider my counterargument to like that of my own analogy, please present it. Otherwise, your objections come off as nothing more than cynical, sterile, neutrality. True, people have their opinions, and they will clash and differ in many aspects. But antwill's opinion is weak and largely unsubstantiated because the brunt of his venom stems from his personal dislike of George Hotz. This has led him to imply many weak pro-Sony positions in this thread alone and it does not invalidate what I've said. Troll though antwill may be, it does not mean that he should be allowed to enforce his misinformation. Sony does not deserve to be defended, and antwill is using Hotz as a strawman and personally attacks anybody who has pointed out the flaws in his argument.

Okay, I take it back, you're an awesome troll.

Your loaded sentences make it too obvious however. Also you should start using other terms besides the usual 'strawman' etc. It's about time you expanded that vocabulary of yours.

 

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

Trolls will be trolls, pirates will be pirates, and ninjas will be ninjas. Hotz will be Hotz, and that's why you dislike him. Everybody is entitled to their opinion (although I dislike him too). People can make an argument based on their opinion, but others will find it a weak argument.

My opinion is that Megaman's counter-argument is as his own analogy - "as solid as a wet tissue paper". In response, I say please don't feed the trolls, and leave the arguing to the people who get paid for it - the layers in the case. I don't need to justify my opinion - the trolls and the pirates and the ninjas will probably do that for me.

The fact that antwill's is a weak argument, and precisely that, makes it clear that his aimless teeth-gnashing must be opposed. I have already reported him because he has engaged in this behavior in other threads and shows no signs of stopping. If you have any further reasons for why you consider my counterargument to like that of my own analogy, please present it. Otherwise, your objections come off as nothing more than cynical, sterile, neutrality. True, people have their opinions, and they will clash and differ in many aspects. But antwill's opinion is weak and largely unsubstantiated because the brunt of his venom stems from his personal dislike of George Hotz. This has led him to imply many weak pro-Sony positions in this thread alone and it does not invalidate what I've said. Troll though antwill may be, it does not mean that he should be allowed to enforce his misinformation. Sony does not deserve to be defended, and antwill is using Hotz as a strawman and personally attacks anybody who has pointed out the flaws in his argument.

Okay, I take it back, you're an awesome troll.

Your loaded sentences make it too obvious however. Also you should start using other terms besides the usual 'strawman' etc. It's about time you expanded that vocabulary of yours.

Using a term that accurately describes your tactics twice means I have a limited vocabulary? Try again.

 

[p1ngpong]

Ok gentlemen I have cleaned up this thread a little somewhat, lets stop all the bickering and personal attacks in this thread from now on and have a civilised discussion.

If I see anymore of this nonsense I will be coming down on you guys like a ton of Sony lawyers

 

[moodswinger]

Ok gentlemen I have cleaned up this thread a little somewhat, lets stop all the bickering and personal attacks in this thread from now on and have a civilised discussion.

If I see anymore of this nonsense I will be coming down on you guys like a ton of Sony lawyers

Will you fail like Sony did? LOL. Kidding.

 

[boktor666]

The point rests in the fact that Hotz cracked a device with stealing a code that sony owns. If he can or cannot prove that he didnt have a console, then he still would be in a lot of trouble, since it got leaked on the internet, under his name. True, he did some stuff with the iDevices, but then going to stand up against Sony is quite a bad idea. It can be made for greater goods *the hack that is* but point is that people won't use it for creating programs, but to pirate games. Thats sony's point of view. I'd say that Hotz should back down now. Mabey its better that sony wins. Many good games, a good online community, there wasn't really a need to hack the PS3, except for being too lazy to buy your games.

 

[Rydian]

Yeah that's what I meant. Except you should also realise Sony could also have removed OtherOS from the older models because of geohotz hack back in January, instead of choosing to leave it on the older models.No, read the link I posted. I'm not posting it for my health, I'm posting it because you should read it. It's an interview with Sony execs on why they removed OtherOS.

I only post the fucking link every day, I wish people would just read it already...

They then say they removed it because of security concerns. No one can prove that is the case or that it wasn't the case. The only ones who can are Sony and we all know that won't happen.They're just scapegoating. They already admitted in the last article why they removed it, and it's a valid technical concern. If they remove it because of development costs versus return on one system for new firmware, they need to remove it for all systems in upcoming firmware in order to stop the development costs associated with it (which was their goal).

Now whether they made the right choice by removing it, I don't think so... but my point is if they remove it on one model and still have to develop it for others than their costs aren't cut, which was their original point. Removing it retroactively was the final step of the removal process.

QUOTE(HateBreed @ Feb 2 2011, 12:14 AM)

I wish geohot hadnt hacked the ps3.. now all the online community is plagued by all these hackers and their noobish cheats...

1 - CFW doesn't even have PSN access (outside of some small windows).
2 - There was cheating way before the key posting and CFW. Hell, there was glitch abuse way before the dongles.

This is the kind of shit I'm talking about. There's a problem, somebody points a finger and says "that's the bad guy", and everybody rages at the guy without even checking to see if he's actually responsible. I don't agree with scapegoating and you all letting yourselves be lead into a holy war like this.





Am I going to have to make a sticky on who's actually responsible for what when it comes to the PS3? I mean I'm getting pretty sick of this. I don't actually like yelling at forum members like this. :\

 

[antwill]

Yeah that's what I meant. Except you should also realise Sony could also have removed OtherOS from the older models because of geohotz hack back in January, instead of choosing to leave it on the older models.

No, read the link I posted. I'm not posting it for my health, I'm posting it because you should read it. It's an interview with Sony execs on why they removed OtherOS.

I only post the fucking link every day, I wish people would just read it already...

That article is talking about the slim only which we all know why it was not included (note: not removed as it was never an option), not why they removed it from the phat which is what everyone is talking about. Also they say they don't plan on removing the OtherOS from the phat version, going so far as to say that it not going to be removed at all in future firmwares... So it is still perfectly possible they only removed it from the older models because of geohot. Unless you have another article to prove otherwise?

 

[Rydian]

Please read the rest of my post... it's a valid technical concern that they remove it from all versions after removing it from one. As for them removing it because of Geohot, I'm going to demand a source.

• Let's look at the situation.
• My argument that Sony did it to cut costs is backed up by official quotes from Sony saying it was to cut costs and technical concerns.
• Your argument that it was geohot is backed up by... ???

As for Sony saying they wouldn't remove it, this is Sony we're talking about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy...rootkit_scandal

 

[chyyran]

This thread was not supposed to be a battlefield for Rydian and Antwill.
What happened to IMHO?

 

[Originality]

When there's doubt, there's a debate. When there's a debate, there's an argument. Where there's Rydian facing down ignorance, misinformation, or political greyness, there's a battlefield just waiting to happen.

IMHO is for losers. Not really, but it's fun to say.

 

[lochoko]

Please read the rest of my post... it's a valid technical concern that they remove it from all versions after removing it from one. As for them removing it because of Geohot, I'm going to demand a source.

• Let's look at the situation.
• My argument that Sony did it to cut costs is backed up by official quotes from Sony saying it was to cut costs and technical concerns.
• Your argument that it was geohot is backed up by... ???

As for Sony saying they wouldn't remove it, this is Sony we're talking about.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_BMG_copy...rootkit_scandal

The reasons are simple: The PS3 Slim is a major cost reduction involving many changes to hardware components in the PS3 design. In order to offer the OtherOS install, SCE would need to continue to maintain the OtherOS hypervisor drivers for any significant hardware changes – this costs SCE.

Significant hardware changes = difference between the original "phats" and the new slims. Regardless, with the new hacks, they've found that linux is easily ran on the Slims, minor work needed. They removed it because they wanted to, not because of costs. Unfortunately, we didn't know this back then and took their word for it.

They would never have had to do work on the hypervisor drivers for the phats, they were already created and worked. They removed them due to "security concerns," which happened AFTER Hotz had performed his hack, something that was not possible for the majority of end-users. (It involved opening the PS3, running code AND shorting the system. Not to mention it was unreliable at best.)

Sony removed OtherOS from the phats because of Hotz. They removed it even though the fix wasn't all that difficult (make sure memory wasn't writable/executable once de-allocated.)

In the exact same article you link, Sony also says

QUOTE

Please be assured that SCE is committed to continue the support for previously sold models that have the “Install Other OS” feature and that this feature will not be disabled in future firmware releases.

Yes, you've tried to show Sony lies. But if Sony lies about them never removing Other OS, why can't they have lied about the cost/technical concerns? If you are going to quote Sony, quote them entirely. Don't pick and choose what verses you like or you're no better than religion. (Leviticus 20:13)

 

[Maz7006]

its not as if homebrew has actually gone anywhere so meh i really couldn't give a crap

CFW and stuff just brought about cheating and piracy, if you ask me i believe Sony was actually quite fair with egohotz considering the mess he did - was so confident during G4TV interview, he must be so pissed

 

[chyyran]

The point rests in the fact that Hotz cracked a device with stealing a code that sony owns. If he can or cannot prove that he didnt have a console, then he still would be in a lot of trouble, since it got leaked on the internet, under his name. True, he did some stuff with the iDevices, but then going to stand up against Sony is quite a bad idea. It can be made for greater goods *the hack that is* but point is that people won't use it for creating programs, but to pirate games. Thats sony's point of view. I'd say that Hotz should back down now. Mabey its better that sony wins. Many good games, a good online community, there wasn't really a need to hack the PS3, except for being too lazy to buy your games.

Correction, a number.

No one can own a Number.

Does this sound awkward to you?

IT'S ILLEGAL TO USE THE NUMBAH 1 BECUZ I COPYRITE IT AND NAO I SUE U BITCH
It should, but in sony's case it's
QUOTE

IT'S ILLEGAL TO USE THE NUMBAH *insert ps3 private key here in decimal* BECUZ I COPYRITE IT AND NAO I SUE U BITCH

I'm not trying to defend Geohot, i'm bashing on Sony for deploying 6 attorneys because someone put a number that happened to be the ps3 private key on the internet

 

[Rydian]

Yes, you've tried to show Sony lies. But if Sony lies about them never removing Other OS, why can't they have lied about the cost/technical concerns?A good concern... except that the original removal and those quotes are from a few MONTHS before geohot tinkered with the PS3. Back when the security features were still assumed to be rock-solid.

Yes, it could be said that Sony was thinking ahead and might have realized a hack could have happened... however if it's "a hack in general" and they feared it they wouldn't have allowed OtherOS to begin with. So it must be that specific hack, right? ... unless you consider what his original hack even WAS.

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/567/pokemehere.jpg
QUOTEWhen the “PRESS THE BUTTON IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS” comes on, pulse the line circled in the picture low for ~40ns.
Try this multiple times, I rigged an FPGA button to send the pulse.

This by itself is not shit Sony would worry about because it's not shit a normal person is going to do.

It's the modern hacks Sony's aware of because they allow pretty much anybody to pirate games.

 

[lochoko]

Yes, you've tried to show Sony lies. But if Sony lies about them never removing Other OS, why can't they have lied about the cost/technical concerns?A good concern... except that the original removal and those quotes are from a few MONTHS before geohot tinkered with the PS3. Back when the security features were still assumed to be rock-solid.

Yes, it could be said that Sony was thinking ahead and might have realized a hack could have happened... however if it's "a hack in general" and they feared it they wouldn't have allowed OtherOS to begin with. So it must be that specific hack, right? ... unless you consider what his original hack even WAS.

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/567/pokemehere.jpg
QUOTEWhen the “PRESS THE BUTTON IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS” comes on, pulse the line circled in the picture low for ~40ns.
Try this multiple times, I rigged an FPGA button to send the pulse.

This by itself is not shit Sony would worry about because it's not shit a normal person is going to do.

It's the modern hacks Sony's aware of because they allow pretty much anybody to pirate games.

Except nowhere in the article do they mention technical concerns. Cost only. They would "have to create new drivers for the hardware revision." It was the 3.21 update that stated Security concerns.

I feel we're arguing the same point with different results. Sony removed OtherOS from the slims to cut costs. Sony Removed OtherOS from the phats due to security concerns. Those concerns never appeared until AFTER the initial Hotz hack/attack. Up until the Hotz attack Sony promised OtherOS support for the Phats for life. Reasoning alone says they removed OtherOS because of the Hotz Attack. Sony will never say this explicitly, however.

 

[antwill]

Except nowhere in the article do they mention technical concerns. Cost only. They would "have to create new drivers for the hardware revision." It was the 3.21 update that stated Security concerns.

I feel we're arguing the same point with different results. Sony removed OtherOS from the slims to cut costs. Sony Removed OtherOS from the phats due to security concerns. Those concerns never appeared until AFTER the initial Hotz hack/attack. Up until the Hotz attack Sony promised OtherOS support for the Phats for life. Reasoning alone says they removed OtherOS because of the Hotz Attack. Sony will never say this explicitly, however.

Exactly what I've been saying, thank you for putting it so simply. Although I have been saying it's possible not definite, I mean they removed it in March, after previously stating they'd keep it, and geohot had told everyone in January they will need OtherOS to use the hack.

 

[KingVamp]

The point rests in the fact that Hotz cracked a device with stealing a code that sony owns. If he can or cannot prove that he didnt have a console, then he still would be in a lot of trouble, since it got leaked on the internet, under his name. True, he did some stuff with the iDevices, but then going to stand up against Sony is quite a bad idea. It can be made for greater goods *the hack that is* but point is that people won't use it for creating programs, but to pirate games. Thats sony's point of view. I'd say that Hotz should back down now. Mabey its better that sony wins. Many good games, a good online community, there wasn't really a need to hack the PS3, except for being too lazy to buy your games.

And yet they are not just going for just pirates, they are going for people who make homebrew too.

Which homebrew is the other valid reason. If I had ps3 I used it for homebrew.

 

[Rydian]

Except nowhere in the article do they mention technical concerns. Cost only. They would "have to create new drivers for the hardware revision." It was the 3.21 update that stated Security concerns.QUOTEIn order to offer the OtherOS install, SCE would need to continue to maintain the OtherOS hypervisor drivers for any significant hardware changes

Obviously the costs are from continued development (they gotta' pay the people that code this shit), and they specifically mentioned maintaining the hypervisor drivers. I'm taking that to mean they didn't want to pay their people to keep developing something, but if it's in the newer firmwares obviously there's still development involved with that (anybody that programs can tell you this), so if you want it to stop being a drain on resources (time as well, and time is money) it just needs to be gotten rid of in it's entirety as overhead is a concern as well. Also take note the movement from losing money on each PS3 sold to making money. Moving from a loss to a profit is worth squeezing out overhead wherever you can.

So yes, we're talking about the same thing, but we're placing emphasis on different parts.

Security being a concern in the removal? Sure, I believe that, Sony's paranoid. However I do not believe that Sony removed OtherOS specifically because of geohot's hack, and I will not believe so until it is proven to be so. This is why I have such a big problem with people using geohot as a scapegoat for this incident. People are cursing him and wishing all sorts of bad things on him with no proof he actually caused any of their concerns.

While it is an easy guess, there's no proof, and the guess is most often made by people who have most of their other information wrong in the first place, which is why I'm so suspect of it.

If there was a valid source directly saying it (say, some big company that works directly with Sony claiming it was removed retroactively specifically because of geohot or specifically naming his hack) then sure, I'll believe it... but as it is it's most often heard from the kind of people who call geohot names and claim he's the reason they've been dealing with hackers on the PS3 for the last two years... which is obviously false and misplaced blame.



Doesn't the US legal system pride itself on "innocent until proven guilty"?

Y'all could have fooled me.



EDIT: Vanishing posts are still happening, lack of quote ability and all.

 

[ShadowSoldier]

Trolls will be trolls, pirates will be pirates, and ninjas will be ninjas. Hotz will be Hotz, and that's why you dislike him. Everybody is entitled to their opinion (although I dislike him too). People can make an argument based on their opinion, but others will find it a weak argument.

My opinion is that Megaman's counter-argument is as his own analogy - "as solid as a wet tissue paper". In response, I say please don't feed the trolls, and leave the arguing to the people who get paid for it - the layers in the case. I don't need to justify my opinion - the trolls and the pirates and the ninjas will probably do that for me.

The only real reason I dislike Hotz is because of him always wanting the spotlight and attention, he almost comes off as naive and desperate. Also I can't believe he was foolish enough to go on TV and say he is getting sued 'for making Sony mad'. That is just way too arrogant for my liking. Not to mention all the credit stealing he does... Had he not done all that then hell, I wouldn't care.

Because, that's pretty much what he did. He didn't exactly break any laws. He released the keys sure, but his hack didn't do piracy. What people do with those keys is up to them. Also, the reason why he's getting a lot of attention that he DESERVES, is because if it wasn't for him really, we wouldn't be allowed to jailbreak our iPhones. He's taking on big companies, and saying "listen, we bought these, we should have the right to do whatever we want with them. When you sold them to us, you lost all ownership except for using your servers."

Also, I'm sorry, but if you were standing next to George, and he hadn't done any hacking, I'd take him over you for the simple fact that you said you wish he would end up homeless and all that stuff, simply because he's annoying. Now either you're just plain heartless, you're jealous, or you're trolling. Then again, it could be all three.