Hardware Wii U GPU outed?

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Deleted_171835

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Oops. Thought "outed" said "outdated".
Yes. Your fault. *points and laughs*

...seriously though, I'm quite happy with their GPU choice. Not suprising, given their long-term relationship with AMD... but good none the less. :P
How powerful are we talking, hopefully exponentially more so than the Xbox360 and PS3 GPUs...?
Think around 4x more. Not a crazy big jump but still very significant and allows for next-gen down-ports.


Assuming this is true of course but I believe the guy.
 

matt1tude

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I feel embarressed now, after that whole discussion we had foxi4 was based off of me believing this was a negative thread about wii u specs lol.
 

Foxi4

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How powerful are we talking, hopefully exponentially more so than the Xbox360 and PS3 GPUs...?
Yes, quite. If what AMD maintains and if rumours are to be believed, it's a big technological jump for consoles.

The PS3's RSX "Reality Synthesizer" is based on a heavily modified NV470 (it's a GeForce 7800 equivalent, but with less ROP's) chip, that's 2005 technology. The XBox 360's ATi Xenos is a custom-built GPU, with a construction similar to the R5xx and R6xx chip families, that's 2006 technology.

The WiiU is supposed to have a E6760-based chip *or* a R7xx-based chip (earlier rumour).

If you want a rough estimate of the performance increase, treat the PS3's GPU as something in-between of a GF7800 and 7600, the XBox 360's a Radeon X1800 and the WiiU's as anything that uses the E6760 (or anything that uses a R7xx-family chip for the earlier rumour, which is still a step-up).
 

matt1tude

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The technological talk has started, thats my cue to hit the sack. (That doesnt me punching myself in nuts, thats saved for playtime hehe lol)
 

Elrinth

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@Foxi4 Your "theory" has been proven wrong by games from back in the 80s. Bad specs of the system the game is run at doesn't equal a bad game.
The specs of the consoles back in the 80's were sufficient in the 80's. That proves nothing, sir.
No you are wrong, it proves everything.
It proves a game doesn't require a high powered system to be a good game. I still love Mega Man 2. Just as I like Mega Man 9 on my PS3. Just like Heroes of Might & Magic 3 still is the greatest Heroes of Might & Magic because the "better" ones just degreeded gameplay-wise even tho requiring MUCH more specs.

Golden Eye on the n64 is like one of the greatest games being delivered on such an underpowered system. You should watch the post mortem for it: http://www.gamasutra...hp#.UF3gAVFk5-Q I don't consider that game shovelware today even tho it looks like shit compared to many of todays games.
 

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I don't blieve this just because it's such a huge jump in tech (as Foxi pointed out).

This means a big increase in cost per-unit.

Also AMD hates me.

2dloqaa.png


(Obviously-faked.)
 
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Foxi4

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No you are wrong, it proves everything.
It proves a game doesn't require a high powered system to be a good game. I still love Mega Man 2. Just as I like Mega Man 9 on my PS3. Just like Heroes of Might & Magic 3 still is the greatest Heroes of Might & Magic because the "better" ones just degreeded gameplay-wise even tho requiring MUCH more specs.

Golden Eye on the n64 is like one of the greatest games being delivered on such an underpowered system. You should watch the post mortem for it: http://www.gamasutra...hp#.UF3gAVFk5-Q I don't consider that game shovelware today even tho it looks like shit compared to many of todays games.
You're in the minority though. There's a difference between retro gaming and contemporary gaming. Contemporary games require contemporary specs (which the WiiU has, thank god). You just have to deal with it.

What was considered sufficient in the 80's or 90's is no longer sufficient in 2012, sorry.
 
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Elrinth

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Perhaps I'm a minority when it comes to Mega Man and older games. However Minecraft is one of the best selling games ever (7,506,579 sold copies at this time of typing) and that game is hardly good looking for it's year it came out.
I doubt 7 million people consider the game shovelware like you imply just because the game could look and play better.
Same with Skyrim, the game is being improved with mods on the PC meaning the game could've been even better in it's release. Yet people still love the game and no one is calling it a shovelware.
Your theory is wrong. (Not so great MB, RAM, SCHIP, CPU & GPU != Shovelware)
It doesn't matter that the NES had "good" specs when it was released. There were still many crappy games back then aswell. Many of these were unlicensed games aswell.
The amount of crappy games being released have only grown as the number of developers have grown. The only reason they ARE crappy games is because the developer make bad, and in some cases unfinished games. Not because of any specs.
As a developer you target a platform, then you make a game specifically for that, if the game is laggy at some part, then you optimize, optimize and optimize even more. Some developers grow tired of optimizing and just release it as it is. Perhaps a deadline is stopping them from polishing, optimizing and finishing their games. That's the kind of things which can turn a game into shovelware.

Just look at cell phone games today. there's nothing better than an iPhone5 and Samsung Galaxy S3 (or whatevers better today) yet there still exists SO many shovelware games on their respective stores. It does NOT matter that these phones are the most powerful phones on the market, there are still crappy released games there. It does not have anything to do with the phones specifications, it's rather the developers who just made bad games, and the stores approved them without blinking.

Now I'm more worried about the CPU than the GPU on the WiiU, as the producer Akihiro Suzuki said the Wii U version of Musou Orochi 3 Hyper [Warriors Orochi 3 Hyper] will have slower frame rate and fewer on-screen opponents than the PS3 and Xbox 360 version, the reason is that the Wii U processor has a little less power than the other two. It's difficult to
 

finkmac

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However Minecraft is one of the best selling games ever (7,506,579 sold copies at this time of typing) and that game is hardly good looking for it's year it came out.

Are you referring to it's art style? Because the graphics in Minecraft are quite advanced. Think about it… Every block in a certain radius has to be ready to be changed at any given moment.
 

Elrinth

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However Minecraft is one of the best selling games ever (7,506,579 sold copies at this time of typing) and that game is hardly good looking for it's year it came out.

Are you referring to it's art style? Because the graphics in Minecraft are quite advanced. Think about it… Every block in a certain radius has to be ready to be changed at any given moment.
The game itself is quite impressive with the whole spatial indexing/quadtrees and the amount of fun stuff you can do and the fact you can play it over network aswell.
Graphically it could be improved tons. It's already possible via mods. I'm just saying the developer didn't add the beautify mods themselves and therefore it has to be a shovelware game because that's how Foxi4's theory goes.
 
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Deleted_171835

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Now I'm more worried about the CPU than the GPU on the WiiU, as the producer Akihiro Suzuki said the Wii U version of Musou Orochi 3 Hyper [Warriors Orochi 3 Hyper] will have slower frame rate and fewer on-screen opponents than the PS3 and Xbox 360 version, the reason is that the Wii U processor has a little less power than the other two. It's difficult to
Suzuki vowed that the performance of the game will be improved before release.

"With the Wii U being new hardware, we're still getting used to developing for it, so there are still a lot of things we don't know yet to bring out the most of the processing power. There's a lot that still needs to be explored in that area."
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-09-21-a-chat-about-the-power-of-the-wii-u-with-the-developer-of-a-wii-u-launch-title
 
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Alexrose

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This thread is filled with such stupidity.

soulx insinuates that Xenoblade couldn't be made on higher gen consoles because extra modelling and texturing time would make for a much smaller game.
Foxi4 retaliates that Skyrim was much larger in scope in almost every way.
soulx says that WRPGs=/=JRPGs.

Well no fucking shit they're not the same genre of game, but he never said they were; he said that your argument was null and void because there are plenty of large games on the higher gen consoles.

People are like, "Higher specs don't make better gameplay".

Indeed, they don't, but who wants to optimise their game they've already developed for the other home consoles for a console with low spec that probably won't be able to run it as hard as they try to optimise it? Noone. Remember all the big 360/PS3 releases that also got ported onto the Wii? Me neither.

You quote the Wii as a success as a console. It was financially successful for Nintendo, and it was rich in first parties for the most part, but whether it was a good console to own is an entirely different story. Anyone who has a high spec pc or a 360/PS3 so you weren't stuck just playing Wii games, what were the last 5 games you played on Wii?

My guess is that for most multi platform gamers, that list of the last 5 wii games they bought would trail back several years, in the meanwhile their Wiis have lain dormant. Since the end of 2008 I've only picked up Super Mario Galaxy 2, Xenoblade Chronicles, ToS2 (which was average, and nothing compared to ToV), Skyward Sword and The Conduit (which was average, and nothing compared to Halo or anything Valve makes). I had like 50 Gamecube games. The Wii failed on third party developers, so it sure as hell matters if they won't be able to run 720/PS4 ports this time around, especially as they don't have the motion control hype they accrued last time.

Edit: Also, I can't believe the discussion where someone's saying that games from the early 90s are still fun therefore that's an acceptable level for a console to be at. Sales back then were much worse in comparison, sales of retro games now are still nothing compared to big titles. Most gamers want to play games like Portal with full 3D, detailed models and amazing physics, not oldschool 90s games. And I'm not saying I don't enjoy those games or that they're bad, but there's no money in them for larger companies. Companies that keep Nintendo in business. It's good for indie developers, who keep a nice catalogue of games that Nintendo will no doubt overlook.
 
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Deleted_171835

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This thread is filled with such stupidity.

soulx insinuates that Xenoblade couldn't be made on higher gen consoles because extra modelling and texturing time would make for a much smaller game.
Foxi4 retaliates that Skyrim was much larger in scope in almost every way.
soulx says that WRPGs=/=JRPGs.
How about you read the whole thread before going on with your bullshit? I said that Xenoblade likely would not have the same scale on the PS3/360 due to the added cost. Foxi4 mentioned Skyrim which I took (and misinterpreted as Foxi4 later clarified) as him saying is a better game thanks to better specs which is why I retaliated saying that you couldn't compare the two games like that. It was a misunderstanding, simple as that.
 
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Foxi4

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*snip... again*
*sighs...* Okay. This is what I said.

It's easier to make a sh*t game than to make a good one. Extensive, complex games with contemporary graphics, contemporary AI, contemporary sound etc. take a lot of manpower and money to make. Sh*t games can be farted out in a week on the cheap on just about any platform and they do not require a lot of horsepower to pull off.

This is why, by proxy, stronger consoles get a higher *density* of good, contemporary products - because they can pull them off. With weak platforms, you gotta dig to get to the gems.

You're not going to prove me otherwise, technology goes forwards, and so does the gaming industry. If a developer has the perfect idea for a fun game, looks at the available platforms and realizes that some of them will not be capable of supporting the features they have in mind, those platforms either get watered down ports or nothing at all.

Please, have a good look at the Wii's library and tell me, how many blockbuster hits were not released on it while they were released on other platforms, all because of technological limitations? Thank you, I rest my case.
The game itself is quite impressive with the whole spatial indexing/quadtrees and the amount of fun stuff you can do and the fact you can play it over network aswell.
Graphically it could be improved tons. It's already possible via mods. I'm just saying the developer didn't add the beautify mods themselves and therefore it has to be a shovelware game because that's how Foxi4's theory goes.
Are you comparing an indie release to a big studio release? Stop. Oh, and by the way - Minecraft is pretty demanding specs wise. Just so you know.

Fortunately, I don't have to continue this discussion. You don't get what I'm saying - this is your problem. You equate the mobile game industry with the console and PC game industry, and they have not yet merged. The truth is that the mobile video game industry is far too focused on the OS rather than the actual specs - games are made to be "compatible with iOS, Android or Windows Phone" - they don't *have* specs requirements, so specs are put outside of the equation as something that merely controls the performance of said games. You can play the exact same games on an iPhone 1 and an iPhone 5 - doesn't that tip you off as something you should add to your equation?

I'm talking numbers here - I know that the Wii had its gems. There's a lot of games worth playing on the console, but the truth is that the biggest franchises of that generation flew right over it without making a Wii appereance and instead, a great majority of Wii games is shovelware, simply put. Why? Because shovelware doesn't need good specs. Contemporary good games do.

To make this easier for you, I've prepared an example. There are two consoles - they're named "High-Specs Console" and "Low-Specs Console", and there are three types of games for them - "Games demanding high specs", "Games not demanding high specs" and "Showelware". The first one supports all three types. The latter only the last two types.

Now, this is easy-peasy statistics - which one has the higher potential for more shovelware in its library? And please, don't argue with math. I'm even pushing the fact that developers want to develop for stronger platforms to avoid optimizing for too long and thus wasting resources aside - this is basic maths.
 

Rydian

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It's generally the case that newer programs are way less resource-efficient than old ones, too.

Phantasy Star Online: Blue Burst? An old full-3D MMO. 100MB of RAM used on my system while in a full room.

FTL: Faster Than Light? A new single-player 2D sprite game. 456MB of RAM just loading the title screen.


EDIT: Redundancy has been removed so that it will no longer exist in the post.
 
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Foxi4

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It's generally the case that newer programs are way less resource-efficient than old ones, too.

Phantasy Star Online: Blue Burst? An old full-3D MMO. 100MB of RAM used on my system while in a full room.

FTL: Faster Than Light? A new single-player 2D sprite game. 456MB of RAM just loading the title screen.


EDIT: Redundancy has been removed so that it will no longer exist in the post.
Speaking of FTL, damn, that game is demanding. I mean, I've got 4GB RAM, an i3 Intel processor and a GeForce 520MX - I'm not claiming this laptop is a rocket ship, but this game severely *lags* in Windowed Mode on this setup, and it's mind boggling to me why. Oh wait, it's not.

Developers know that these are the average specs of computers nowadays and they know that they won't have to optimize their code or simplify it - it will work perfectly fine on most contemporary computers. This is how it works with consoles too.

If you don't have a healthy competition of consoles with similar specs, competing on the field of features, not specs alone, someone gets left behind by the developers. Not everybody may like that, but that's the truth.
 

Alexrose

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This thread is filled with such stupidity.

soulx insinuates that Xenoblade couldn't be made on higher gen consoles because extra modelling and texturing time would make for a much smaller game.
Foxi4 retaliates that Skyrim was much larger in scope in almost every way.
soulx says that WRPGs=/=JRPGs.
How about you read the whole thread before going on with your bullshit? I said that Xenoblade likely would not have the same scale on the PS3/360 due to the added cost. Foxi4 mentioned Skyrim which I took (and misinterpreted as Foxi4 later clarified) as him saying is a better game thanks to better specs which is why I retaliated saying that you couldn't compare the two games like that. It was a misunderstanding, simple as that.


Right, and you interpreted him saying "a bigger game" in your reply to things being a larger scale:

the rest of the world was kinda focused on Skyrim, which is far "bigger"

as him saying it was better. He even put it in quotes.

And all I said was that that was stupid. You had a massive argument, where you used a really superciliously patronising gif as if he was some absolute dreggy moron, because you misinterpreted something obvious as shit, and somehow I'm the one going on with "bullshit" because I said it was stupid? And you act like I'm being immature for bringing up something that's already been addressed, when actually you just had a huge go at him when you were in the wrong and when I confronted you on it, you acted like you'd already admitted it. You even accused me of not having read the whole thread, as if you'd resolved the issue somewhere on another page, when in actuality, you simply hadn't even acknowledged the fact that you flamed him even though it was your fault for misinterpreting him and you were wrong.

When you act pompous to people in an argument with annoying little gifs and a patronising tone as if you're speaking ex cathedra, you should actually check that you're not wrong yourself before you come across as a massive jerk. I wasn't even part of the discussion and just seeing your posts made me feel sorry for the guy you were flaming for no reason.
 

Foxi4

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Alex, he misunderstood me but then we straightened it up - he's entirely aware that this is not about the scale, the story, the fun factor or anything else of the sort, merely about their complexity from a coder's perspective. It's still a mirracle that Xenoblades does what it actually does given the platform it was released for, but I maintain what I said earlier - were it to be released on stronger platforms, it could've only been improved in a variety of ways.
 
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Deleted_171835

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Right, and you interpreted him saying "a bigger game" in your reply to things being a larger scale:

the rest of the world was kinda focused on Skyrim, which is far "bigger"

as him saying it was better. He even put it in quotes.

And all I said was that that was stupid. You had a massive argument, where you used a really superciliously patronising gif as if he was some absolute dreggy moron, because you misinterpreted something obvious as shit, and somehow I'm the one going on with "bullshit" because I said it was stupid? And you act like I'm being immature for bringing up something that's already been addressed, when actually you just had a huge go at him when you were in the wrong and when I confronted you on it, you acted like you'd already admitted it. You even accused me of not having read the whole thread, as if you'd resolved the issue somewhere on another page, when in actuality, you simply hadn't even acknowledged the fact that you flamed him even though it was your fault for misinterpreting him and you were wrong.

When you act pompous to people in an argument with annoying little gifs and a patronising tone as if you're speaking ex cathedra, you should actually check that you're not wrong yourself before you come across as a massive jerk. I wasn't even part of the discussion and just seeing your posts made me feel sorry for the guy you were flaming for no reason.
Why are you still going on with this when Foxi4 already clarified his argument to me. It was a misunderstanding and you're making it seem like a bigger deal than it actually is.

And one gif showing my disapproval (when I misunderstood what he meant) isn't flaming.
 
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