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Alabama Supreme Court rules that IVF embryos may be considered unborn children

Foxi4

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Discussed =/= repeated, vague tautologies.

Please confirm a certain moderator is off their meds as somehow it is thinking to be back in school, clearly a senile moment.
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This may be a shock for you, but a Christian may very well have principles that are aligned with Christianity, if not sometimes identical.
Please only contribute on-topic posts only. If you’re not going to talk about the Alabama ruling, which encompasses the ruling itself and a broader discussion of the concept of unborn life, save yourself the trouble. If you want your star, complete the assignment as instructed. Future off-topic will be deleted.
 

Dark_Ansem

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. If you want your star, complete the assignment as instructed.
Delusional.
Future off-topic will be deleted.
start by deleting your rants then. Or rules are only for others?
Please only contribute on-topic posts only. If you’re not going to talk about the Alabama ruling, which encompasses the ruling itself and a broader discussion of the concept of unborn life, save yourself the trouble.
I was and am, and somehow you complained about that too hiding behind the "already discussed" nonsense. You think to hold granitic certainty on a topic that has been discussed for 30+ years? think again.

I ask again, to those who think Alabama SC got it right: if the embryos (not even blastocysts) are kids, what's their gender? Are they male, female or what?

And I'm not saying this rhetorically: https://www.businessinsider.com/hou...vf-exception-2024-2?amp&utm_source=reddit.com

look at this absolute trash: https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/431/text

Because if what, we finally would get conservatives to claim there are more than 2 genders.

Also, on a related note: everything us "lefty smarties" said would happen in case of a Roe repeal is, in fact, happening. And I'm only saying this because there was a chorus of "You're paranoid, it's not going to happen" nonsense.
 
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Foxi4

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Delusional.

start by deleting your rants then. Or rules are only for others?

I was and am, and somehow you complained about that too hiding behind the "already discussed" nonsense. You think to hold granitic certainty on a topic that has been discussed for 30+ years? think again.

I ask again, to those who think Alabama SC got it right: if the embryos (not even blastocysts) are kids, what's their gender? Are they male, female or what?

And I'm not saying this rhetorically: https://www.businessinsider.com/hou...vf-exception-2024-2?amp&utm_source=reddit.com

look at this absolute trash: https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/431/text

Because if what, we finally would get conservatives to claim there are more than 2 genders.

Also, on a related note: everything us "lefty smarties" said would happen in case of a Roe repeal is, in fact, happening. And I'm only saying this because there was a chorus of "You're paranoid, it's not going to happen" nonsense.
Everything discussed in the thread so-far is on topic, the topic being legislation regarding “unborn children”. You can determine the sex of an embryo through DNA analysis, long before it develops any sexual characteristics at all. You can’t define its gender because gender is a social construct and an embryo is not yet capable of socialisation. There has never been a scientific debate regarding whether human embryos are human or whether they’re alive - both of those things are objectively true and can be determined scientifically. The debate is not about that, it’s about whether they should be regarded as on the same level as a full-grown humans, to which the answer is probably “no” because they’re not full-grown humans. The debate has always been about rights. A human embryo doesn’t come from a donkey and it’s demonstrably not dead - it is human in origin and living. It is, in fact, a developing human, just very small.
 

Dark_Ansem

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You can determine the sex of an embryo through DNA analysis, long before it develops any sexual characteristics at all.
This is ONLY true when it reaches the blastocyst stage, which is around a week optimistically. But at any rate, it was only a semi serious question. Embryos aren't unborn children, not even at blastocyst stage. And the reason is that a child is a child, not a foetus, not an embryo and certainly not a blastocyst. If embryos were children, we would call them children in science too. The distinction is there and not without purpose.
 

Foxi4

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This is ONLY true when it reaches the blastocyst stage, which is around a week optimistically. But at any rate, it was only a semi serious question. Embryos aren't unborn children, not even at blastocyst stage. And the reason is that a child is a child, not a foetus, not an embryo and certainly not a blastocyst. If embryos were children, we would call them children in science too. The distinction is there and not without purpose.
Why are you arguing with yourself? I didn’t say that an embryo is a child, or a fetus. An embryo is an embryo. Sex can be determined as soon as DNA is recompiled, problem being that if you did it too early you could inadvertently destroy the cell. You wouldn’t do that in a medical setting, but for the sake of a thought experiment you sure can. DNA replicates pretty much as soon as an egg is fertilised, and it’s not some kind of different magical DNA, it’s just a matter of taking a sample. As for blastocysts, they’re what turns into an embryo, not the other way around, you have things mixed up. Every embryo was formerly a blastocyst, so by your logic, every embryo can be tested.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blastocyst
The blastocyst is a structure formed in the early embryonic development of mammals. It possesses an inner cell mass (ICM) also known as the embryoblast which subsequently forms the embryo, and an outer layer of trophoblast cells called the trophectoderm.
 

Dark_Ansem

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I didn’t say that an embryo is a child, or a fetus.
I didn't say you did. There's not just you in this thread.
As for blastocysts, they’re what turns into an embryo, not the other way around, you have things mixed up. Every embryo was formerly a blastocyst, so by your logic, every embryo can be tested.
I did, I also apparently got the timing wrong, it requires 10 days not 7. which makes the alabama ruling even more moronic.
 

Foxi4

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I didn't say you did. There's not just you in this thread.
Well, you’re complaining about it to me, so it was a fair assumption. Fair enough.
I did, I also apparently got the timing wrong, it requires 10 days not 7. which makes the alabama ruling even more moronic.
The ruling is draconian and stupid, with some luck it will be overturned.
 
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salazarcosplay

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Alabama continues to remind everyone that they are by far the worst state in every sense of the word
In that case IVF children should be given birth too. Perhaps Alabama can pay and compensate surrogates to carry the IVF children to term and fund orphanages where they can be raised.
Let's see how long this lasts after some Alabama women start claiming 20+ dependents on their taxes. New infinite money glitch.
wouldn't the the tax code be federal regulation and not state based?
 
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Foxi4

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By whom? The federal SC?
Sure. Alternatively the situation can be cleared up with legislation. “May” does not equal “is”. We’ll see how things shake up.
Wonder if this is the one closing and renaming the Trump topics...
I hate to disappoint, but it wasn’t me - I did however agree that your titles do not fit our styling guide which is stickied in the sub. You should refer to it when making threads here. I have no comment beyond that - moderating decisions are final and not up to debate.
 
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supermist

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To refer to Trump as a rapist isn't a breach of the rules because it's not an opinion per a judge's clarification. 🤷

And Trump is tangibly responsible for the situation in Alabama as his SCJ nominations resulted in the repeal of Roe v Wade which set the foundation for the new ruling there.
 
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Dark_Ansem

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Sure. Alternatively the situation can be cleared up with legislation. “May” does not equal “is”. We’ll see how things shake up.
Hah! This SC won't do it and we've seen that politicians are too timid to legislate apparently.
To refer to Trump as a rapist isn't a breach of the rules because it's not an opinion per a judge's clarification.
I think Trump is carrots infinite money glitch as he can't help himself.
 

Mythrandir

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The company is held liable for murder, not individuals. Which in a practical sense means they're just fined X amount of money. You could argue that human lives are worth more or less than the amount determined by the court, but regardless it's enough that IVF clinics will not be able to obtain insurance to cover the cost.

Embryos are not the same as non-viable fetuses, which are not the same as viable fetuses, which are not the same as babies capable of eating and breathing on their own. A failure to acknowledge the distinctions between these is a failure to acknowledge reality.

Under which Alabama statute would murder apply rather than involuntary manslaughter assuming liability of the loss of life is to be applied? Why would the following Alabama statute apply or not apply to the hypothetical scenario of embryos lost due to a power failure?

The minimum requirement for criminal liability is the performance by a person of conduct which includes a voluntary act or the omission to perform an act which he is physically capable of performing. If that conduct is all that is required for commission of a particular offense, or if an offense or some material element thereof does not require a culpable mental state on the part of the actor, the offense is one of "strict liability." If a culpable mental state on the part of the actor is required with respect to any material element of an offense, the offense is one of "mental culpability."
Title 13A; Article 1; Section 13A-2-3
https://alison.legislature.state.al.us/code-of-alabama
 

Foxi4

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To refer to Trump as a rapist isn't a breach of the rules because it's not an opinion per a judge's clarification. 🤷
We’ve been over this last time. The judge in question posted a legal opinion - he’s entitled to do it. That is not a guilty verdict. Other legal experts can also publish legal opinions which may or may not align with the judge’s - those aren’t a verdict either. Trump was never found guilty of rape, he was found liable for battery involving sexual assault in a civil suit. That is not proof positive that he actually did anything, nor does it carry any criminal penalty - it means at least half of the jury believed he did what was alleged, and as such he was found liable and his accuser was awarded damages. This is not a matter of statute of limitations - first degree rape has no statute of limitations in New York. If his accuser believes that is what happened, she can pursue those charges even now. If you insist on using the term, my recommendation is to use the word alleged, since it is an alleged crime until his guilt is proven. My line of reasoning aligns with what the law professors in the link below have to say:

https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-was-donald-trump-found-guilty-rape-1799935

Now, the thread titles, and why they were changed. *You* are welcome to believe whatever you like, but the title and the main body of articles posted is supposed to use neutral language, as per the style guide. If you want to make a case that what was alleged was in fact true, you can do so in subsequent posts - there are no rules against that. Since your thread titles were purposefully inflammatory and meant to start arguments, even in threads unrelated to that case, one of the team members decided to change them, and I personally concur - that was a correct decision per our style guide. That’s non-negotiable and not subject to debate. In the future you should direct such concerns via PM to a member of staff, in accordance with our TOS. Moderation queries are not meant to be publicly discussed, but since you broached the subject, I’m making an exception. This will be the last post regarding this matter, any further attempts to derail will be deleted. You have your explanation, now we can return to the topic at hand - Alabama and IVF.
 

Xzi

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We’re not discussing Christianity, we were talking strictly about you.
Technically I was Christian before I was an atheist before I was agnostic/vaguely pagan. Point I was trying to make is how Christianity holds humanity on a pedestal above, and separate from nature, but we aren't and we may never be. Without death, life has no meaning, and loss of life at the embryonic/fetal stages is common among all species. As humans we reason that out as somehow "cruel," but there needn't be malice assigned to it. In fact one could make the argument that death before consciousness is a mercy compared to death post-consciousness, especially in circumstances such as a child being born into extreme poverty and then slowly starving to death. It's humanity which can be cruel, and we project that on to the impartial chaos of nature.

Oh, absolutely. My point is that I talked you down from “It’s not a human life” to “It’s alive, but it’s not human” and then down to “It’s human and it’s alive, but it’s not a fully-grown human so it has limited value - it progressively gains value as its viability increases”. That’s how I know it’s not a firmly held belief, and as a people person I like to drill down to what your actual thoughts are - that’s fun for me.
I was not understanding what you specifically meant with the term "human life," and considering you acknowledge that it can refer to a single human skin cell, an embryo, or even a full-grown adult, that's still something which remains vague. In my eyes it's preferable to narrow usage of it down to a whole human which has at least demonstrated minimum viability via birth, but I won't fault you for choosing to use it in the broader sense.

My beliefs did not shift during this conversation, but I did struggle a bit to reason out how and where they were applicable to it initially.
 

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In that case IVF children should be given birth too. Perhaps Alabama can pay and compensate surrogates to carry the IVF children to term and fund orphanages where they can be raised.

wouldn't the the tax code be federal regulation and not state based?
Don't know if you know this, but in America you pay state and federal taxes and must file two separate returns
 
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Xzi

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Don't know if you know this, but in America you pay state and federal taxes and must file two separate returns
Yes and ruling them "unborn" children specifically means they cannot actually be claimed as dependents on either tax filing. Republican cowards always find a way to inflict maximum loss of rights/freedoms on individuals without following through on demonstrating the strength of their own convictions.

Considering this is one of the most impoverished states in the nation we're talking about, a little bit of financial incentive would go a long way toward both increasing IVF donations and increasing the birth rate, which are not mutually exclusive.
 
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