[POLL] 2020 U.S. Presidential Election

Hanafuda · Aug 29, 2020

Lacius said:
We don't have sufficient evidence to accept any of the Tara Reed allegations, and I'm not going to talk about them..

How convenient for you. Believe all women, except you know, those women. Tara Reed has a more credible claim to her accusations than Christine Blasey Ford or any of the other women that jumped out of the woodshed to accuse Kavanaugh, but for some reason Democrats paid all this attention to what they had to say.

And if you don't think the deals for millions of dollars, even over a BILLION dollars in one deal, being funneled through Hunter Biden's investment firm from Ukrainian and Chinese "business contacts" within weeks after Hunter flew to those countries with his dad on Air Force 2 ---- not to mention Hunter's installation on the Board of Directors of Burisma ---- doesn't constitute evidence of criminal corruption, then your sense of smell is dead. Cuz it smells rotten.

FAST6191 · Aug 30, 2020

Xzi said:
Not particularly. As I've said before, Biden and Harris are center-right, while Trump and Pence are far right.

While the left right classification has been dubious since the French revolution invented it, subsequent years and adoption by isolated pockets of English speakers making it little better, that seems like a really dubious claim even with that proviso. That or I am going to need a term stronger than far right to describe various historical characters and their actions, none of which were those undertaken by the present el presidente or are anything even vaguely close to, which is rather unfortunate as I thought far right was already the term generally understood as something of a starting point there. Indeed even if I restrict myself to US politics of living memory then he would probably have been considered pretty centrist (and probably fundamentally lacking) by the US right of the 1940s through 1980s. Religion (evangelical types that were all in on Reagan and the Bush dynasty seem to have at best adopted him as the least likely to mess with their concerns rather than push them), guns (the biggest development there is... the supreme court ruling California's size restrictions as not cool?), economic controls (the rich have a few tax breaks, a few less government programs, what little passes for US welfare setups still intact), tax reforms, race relations (mostly the same, which is to say equal barring what California seems to want to do but neither he nor his party has much sway there), abortions (still legal, indeed restrictions attempted seem to have been smacked down), rights for the gays (still all there), evolution in schools (still being taught, "design" still not being science)... looking at his policies in all those, or indeed breaking the left right thing out into how those policies might land in cultural (other than harping on about games early on, before doing basically nothing), economic, and state power (said swamp does not look very drained from where I sit) versions of those then I can't see far right being an accurate categorisation in those. At best him not sending in the feds to truly crack skulls seems like him at some level doing the whole state's rights thing which I suppose is a right wing affair.

That or we get to discuss that overton window lark. In this case you presumably finding yourself so far into the left wing aspect (the workers making proportional to their work's value thing tending to be a phrase associated with such a position) of things that it is much akin to some starving bastard in Africa looking at you or I (I assume neither of us is looking at a home to summer in any time soon, never mind a jet or private boat with helipad) and thinking us rich.

I would likely struggle to mistake him as a left wing politician, be it by historical, present anywhere in the world never mind the US, certainly not anything like far left but to say far right... just seems ridiculously inaccurate.
Now are his policies good? That is a different matter entirely.

notimp · Aug 30, 2020

Drak0rex said:
Yes yes. You are ever so eager to find information that supports your bias against Trump while proclaiming that Biden has done nothing wrong which couldn't be further from the truth. *cough*Tara Reed*cough*

The famous, "whatever you said I dont want to deal with, your guy has done something bad too, so I think that levels all of it" gambit.

UltraSUPRA · Aug 30, 2020

notimp said:
The famous, "whatever you said I dont want to deal with, your guy has done something bad too, so I think that levels all of it" gambit.

Allegations are essentially the legal form of rumors, though. Even if, supposedly, Tara was a lying dog-faced pony soldier, there is plenty of photographic evidence that Creepy Joe is, indeed, Creepy.

notimp · Aug 30, 2020

FAST6191 said:
then I can't see far right being an accurate categorisation in those. At best him not sending in the feds to truly crack skulls seems like him at some level doing the whole state's rights thing which I suppose is a right wing affair.

How does "Trump supporters call for people to 'arm themselves' and hit the streets to 'protect' america from left wing rioters who want to destroy the nation (more or less verbatim GOP speech)" and this resulting in one such supporter living in that alternative reality bubble actually killing protesters on the streets?

That sounds pretty fashist to me.

This argumentation (a little further into the video):

You don't play with fire, and then wash your hands and proclaim you've done nothing.

If you drive polarisation to that point, for literally no reason, other than you wanting to stay in power...

UltraSUPRA said:
Allegations are essentially the legal form of rumors, though.

True. That doesnt mean you should dismiss them without looking at or thinking about them.

PizzaBitez · Aug 30, 2020

I usually vote republican just of personal beliefs. However I don't think trump is what this country needs....

UltraSUPRA · Aug 30, 2020

notimp said:
That sounds pretty fashist to me.

notimp · Aug 30, 2020

In addition to the historian in that video, I've heard Joseph Stiglitz mirror that assertion ("The RNC this year was an exercise straight out of the fashist playbook") not 24 hours ago, and Colbert as well.

So this time, its not just internet activists that are saying 'what have you done here'.

But I'm sure those two people killed, and that young persons life ruined is nothing your meme posting cant solve...

You cant just model your entire convention after a fashist prep speech and then accuse the other side of saying something like - "you did that", by exaggerating the argument and defending yourself with 'at least I'm not Hilter'.

Thats not what you were accused of.

Xzi · Aug 30, 2020

FAST6191 said:
While the left right classification has been dubious since the French revolution invented it, subsequent years and adoption by isolated pockets of English speakers making it little better, that seems like a really dubious claim even with that proviso. That or I am going to need a term stronger than far right to describe various historical characters and their actions, none of which were those undertaken by the present el presidente or are anything even vaguely close to, which is rather unfortunate as I thought far right was already the term generally understood as something of a starting point there.

Trump scores a solid 12.5 out of 14 points when it comes to the "early warning signs of fascism" as described by the Holocaust Museum and other historical scholars.

The only way he could possibly be any more blatant about where he falls on the political spectrum is if he started using actual nazi symbolism to promote his campaign. Oh wait.

UltraSUPRA · Aug 30, 2020

Xzi said:
Trump scores a solid 12.5 out of 14 points when it comes to the "early warning signs of fascism" as described by the Holocaust Museum and other historical scholars.

The only way he could possibly be any more blatant about where he falls on the political spectrum is if he started using actual nazi symbolism to promote his campaign. Oh wait.

Okay, let's go over each point one by one.

1. Nationalism is a good thing.
2. Human rights don't exist.
3. Labeling your group "anti-bad" doesn't instantly make it the hero group.
4. A stronger military keeps innocent people safe.
5. No.
6. I take it the media told you that you should vote for Biden so that Trump stops controlling the media?
7. See 4.
8. No.
9. What?
10. What?
11. No.
12. Arsonists are swarming the big cities.
13. No.
14. Mail-in voting is the real fraud.

Xzi · Aug 30, 2020

UltraSUPRA said:
Okay, let's go over each point one by one.

Let's not. I didn't ask for the opinion of someone who hasn't even finished high school history classes and takes the information presented in alt-right Youtube videos as gospel. To an extent, I can forgive FAST6191 for not paying much attention to the shit Trump says and does, because he lives overseas. You, however, would continue lying to yourself and others even if the "dear leader" of cult45 transitioned his concentration camps into death camps tomorrow.

notimp · Aug 30, 2020

UltraSUPRA said:
Okay, let's go over each point one by one.

1. Nationalism is a good thing.

Nationalism is a trope invented for a purpose. It can be abused. (Like when you do free trade deals with Mexicon and India, and then claim you are still nationalist. (How this works: Companies will export steps in manufacturing to lower wage countries, then reimport those partly manufactured goods, for final assembly in country, maybe. This results in less, and lower qualification jobs in the US. At the same times, goods get cheaper, and might also be sold to India. Which also doesnt benefit the manufacturing base in the US.))

UltraSUPRA said:
2. Human rights don't exist.

They do - but US claims extralegal status basically (claims those courts dont have legislative power over stuff done by the US, or hasnt signed agreements). All that stuff is likely to continue (partly because of the US playing protector and hegemon at the same time)

UltraSUPRA said:
3. Labeling your group "anti-bad" doesn't instantly make it the hero group.

Same goes for you, so I think we can agree on that.

UltraSUPRA said:
4. A stronger military keeps innocent people safe.

Thats a naive world view.

The only programmatic ('this is what I want to change') points you could come up with were:
"Have no Arsonists swarm the city." (Protesters)
"Mail-in Vote is the real fraud, lets not have Mail-in voting"

Lets face it, you've become a fashist.
-

Oh, the Trump is anti-labour rights point has to be illustrated as well. Lets take a Tump campaign ad for that.

If you get bamboozled by words: Manufacturing will go to india and mexico, or get to an equally low pay level (partly because of deregulation (no social security for those workers, ...)) to compete.

Free trade means international Investor protection programs (if investor invests money in India he/she gets guarantees, that they arent booted before they have recouped investments, or they get compensations) - its not like india would have had high import tariffs on american goods before. That and that standards get aligned, so manufacturers have lower expenses getting products market ready.

In the conventional economic model, this helps everyone, because as products become cheaper, more people can afford it, which profits the manufacturer - and therefore their workforce. But the money doesnt end up in US workforces anymore - its india that gets developed.

What you'd need in developed countries are investments in R&D and new industries, that only would be viable in the US, for one reason or another (and cheap energy is one reason (a republican one, but hey)).

Trump didnt invest in education, companies didn't invest in R&D (for what? Just slash prices, then sell to india.)

FAST6191 · Aug 30, 2020

It must be terrifyingly scary to live in a world like those some of the people here seem to inhabit.

I look out into the world and see a politically incapable ego driven corporatist set on padding wallet and "legacy", albeit with weak foreign policy heading the US, scarcely any different from the numerically viable alternative. A clown, a puppet, a performer and nothing much more. However as leaders mean little in this setup and instead inertia and some pretty solid fundamentals are in play then stuff is pretty peaceful, quality of life is about as good as it gets for most, business generally trucking along be it big or small (give or take this little pandemic bit, and while tragic things will probably come back in one form or another, though plenty will have been hurt), people generally able to get on in life if they have the skills (which, while expensive compared to some, are still achievable by the poorer in society).
There are problems, but when are there not? Said education is expensive compared to many places and not of such astounding quality that it would seem to merit that, healthcare... yeah it is good but pay to play is tricky to manage, retirement is a lie but then it always was, a few monopolies are making life harder than is ideal but we also seem to be in one of those more interesting periods in history where technology affords rather radical options here.

Nothing remotely like what I would want or want to look up to in a leader. In no way a principled person on some of the things I care about but few really are (principles are hard things to have - I may not care for what you have to say but your right to say it and all that, does not sell with many of the public that prefer what looks nice and feels comfortable). As such that is far from ideal as there are two or three other big powers looking to make major plays over the coming decades (whether China's economy, education and population pyramid issues will cripple them before this belt and road lark is finished I don't know, whether Russia will have the capabilities to do anything once they topple, where India will be in this, where whatever might be described as Europe will end up) and despite the trillions available to play with it is scarcely noticed.
Do I expect the other guy to either outright fix those, or make moves that go into it? Not really, might do better on some things. Many places have had essentially decades of unbroken control and self determination... places that in other parts of the world have resulted in some notable differences but here... nothing or general failures. Granted those firmly in the grip of the other guys don't seem like paradise either.

If instead you look out and see scarcely abated misery, thugs on every corner, the ability to only conform or be smacked down, and the proverbial minutes to midnight clock of full on jackbooted slave state with autocrats that grinds basically everybody into the dust is 23:59 and wavering...

notimp said:
How does "Trump supporters call for people to 'arm themselves' and hit the streets to 'protect' america from left wing rioters who want to destroy the nation (more or less verbatim GOP speech)" and this resulting in one such supporter living in that alternative reality bubble actually killing protesters on the streets?

That sounds pretty fashist to me.

Is this that Kyle Rittenhouse guy? I saw the videos. Did not seem like a reality bubble type. Seemed like an otherwise good kid (probably would not be my friend but then again the boy scout type seldom is) in way out of his depth being attacked and the whole "guns are a great leveller" and he had a nice big one (and seemingly some skill in using it -- I don't know if I have his trigger discipline). Some said however there could have been a previous inciting incident prior to the molotov/flaming bag bit (the thrower taking a headshot not so very long later after further pursuing him) so yeah I will have to see what goes there. If the rest of the footage is accurate (it was long form, generally unedited and covered lead up to shots fired and actions taken beyond) then there would have been four corpses should I have been in his shoes, though I would have probably ran faster (certainly not stopped to potentially render aid/have a little look at the headshot guy) and also tried not to be separated from a group in the first place, not to mention I try not to get myself in situations like that to begin with (not that I have any particular objection to the reason he found himself there; I am just not a particularly community minded individual when my arse in on the line, if the foolhardy want to then all them).

UltraSUPRA · Aug 30, 2020

Xzi said:
Let's not. I didn't ask for the opinion of someone who hasn't even finished high school history classes and takes the information presented in alt-right Youtube videos as gospel. To an extent, I can forgive FAST6191 for not paying much attention to the shit Trump says and does, because he lives overseas. You, however, would continue lying to yourself and others even if the "dear leader" of cult45 transitioned his concentration camps into death camps tomorrow. End of quote.

It amazes me how you can think that you have proof that Donald Trump is a fascist when all you have to back it up is further development of the best country in history and a large stretch based on a logo.

notimp · Aug 30, 2020

FAST6191 said:
people generally able to get on in life if they have the skills (which, while expensive compared to some, are still achievable by the poorer in society).

Thats not true. Social mobility in the US is half of that in Canada.

'Needed skills' more and more are becoming 'can you get a job from an app' and 'can you provide a service such as bringing package from A to B'.

Those are the low level qualification jobs. (No upward mobility.)

Higher level qualification jobs consist of 'can you help with international trade (part of which is not trade at all, but the same companies outsourcing)', and project management, where you need some additional qualifications to then cut out your marketing and PR department, and finish jobs using temp workers in the gig economy.

Thats the project management part.

Pathways to education in the US? I don't want to start... (Have you signed up for the military yet?)

R&D? What coasting out the smartphone revolution for the next hyped up secondary market (VR and AR?) Something I missed?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

UltraSUPRA said:
It amazes me how you can think that you have proof that Donald Trump is a fascist when all you have to back it up is further development of the best country in history and a large stretch based on a logo.

The RNC convention setup and speech production followed a fashist playbook. Dont be amazed, be realistic.

UltraSUPRA · Aug 30, 2020

notimp said:
Nationalism is a trope invented for a purpose. It can be abused. (Like when you do free trade deals with Mexicon and India, and then claim you are still nationalist. (How this works: Companies will export steps in manufacturing to lower wage countries, then reimport those partly manufactured goods, for final assembly in country, maybe. This results in less, and lower qualification jobs in the US. At the same times, goods get cheaper, and might also be sold to India. Which also doesnt benefit the manufacturing base in the US.))

Nationalism is based on the idea that the country you live in is the best. Which, in the case ofthe US, it is.

notimp said:
They do - but US claims extralegal status basically (claims those courts dont have legislative power over stuff done by the US, or hasnt signed agreements). All that stuff is likely to continue (partly because of the US playing protector and hegemon at the same time)

No, they don't. Even the right to life for some people is only granted in a few countries.

notimp said:
Same goes for you, so I think we can agree on that.

Exactly. It's about action, not a name.

notimp said:
Thats a naive world view.

Without the army, who would stop the destruction of Israel or South Korea?

notimp said:
Lets face it, you've become a fashist.

Do you know the name "Giovanni Gentile"?

notimp · Aug 30, 2020

UltraSUPRA said:
Nationalism is based on the idea that the country you live in is the best. Which, in the case ofthe US, it is.

That may be, but it was invented in europe, as a governing structure for some bavarian valleys.

(Its an -ism)

UltraSUPRA said:
Without the army, who would stop the destruction of Israel or South Korea?

Granted, but that doesnt mean you always have to raise investment in military. Which btw. to help you isn't expected to continue unter Trump, military spending is expected to flatline.

FAST6191 said:
Is this that Kyle Rittenhouse guy? I saw the videos. Did not seem like a reality bubble type. Seemed like an otherwise good kid (probably would not be my friend but then again the boy scout type seldom is)

He sat in the first row at Trump speeches. Which meens, you wait in line for hours for that 'privilege'.

I've nothing against the kid either, well accept for against what he did. Probably a good kid, that armed himself with a semi automatic rifle with live ammunition to 'protect' america from protesters, and killed a few...

Xzi · Aug 30, 2020

FAST6191 said:
I look out into the world and see a politically incapable ego driven corporatist set on padding wallet and "legacy", albeit with weak foreign policy heading the US, scarcely any different from the numerically viable alternative. A clown, a puppet, a performer and nothing much more.

Oh we certainly agree there, but it's the puppet-master that's of bigger concern to me than the puppet himself in this case, and I think you know very well who I'm talking about without even needing to mention his name. Nothing puts a smile on his face more than to see the US divided and in complete chaos, on the verge of collapse from democracy into autocracy. All he needed was a useful idiot in the White House for four years to accomplish precisely that, four more and we'll be over that cliff without question.

UltraSUPRA · Aug 30, 2020

Xzi said:
Oh we certainly agree there, but it's the puppet-master that's of bigger concern to me than the puppet himself in this case, and I think you know very well who I'm talking about without even needing to mention his name. Nothing puts a smile on his face more than to see the US divided and in complete chaos, on the verge of collapse from democracy into autocracy. All he needed was a useful idiot in the White House for four years to accomplish precisely that, four more and we'll be over that cliff without question.

Biden is also a puppet, though one of a different Asian country. One that has already made moves to destroy our country as a whole through media corruption and medical warfare.

notimp · Aug 30, 2020

UltraSUPRA said:
Biden is also a puppet, though one of a different Asian country. One that has already made moves to destroy our country as a whole through media corruption and medical warfare.

UltraSUPRA is bringing Trump election campaign propaganda - that I haven't have the faintest idea what it means yet.

(Videos from the official Trump channel.)

Every developed nation outside the US wants the US to get back on board with UN and Nato commitments. (And therefore would prefer Joe Biden.)

The US/China trade war will probably continue under Biden. US has no incentives not to.

edit: Ivanka Trump produces and sells handbags in China. Something, something not quite 1.5 billion.
https://medium.com/politicalhaze/ch...-shoes-purses-gadgets-and-voting-93fa61389be0

[POLL] 2020 U.S. Presidential Election

For whom will/would you vote?

Donald Trump and Mike Pence (Republican Party)

Joe Biden and Kamala Harris (Democratic Party)

Jo Jorgensen and Spike Cohen (Libertarian Party)

Howie Hawkins and Angela Walker (Green Party)

Other

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Shadow Clone Justu.

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Time to fly, 621

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