The Illegal Immigration Non-Crisis in the USA

[smf]

I think we should get rid of the policies encouraging the illegals and anyone in our government that is supporting this lawless act and cut the current detainees daily meals to what you would find in the Arizona Maricopa County Jail and cut off their air conditioning and make them live in tents like our homeless people are having to do because the Illegal immigrants are more of a priority than they are.

I'd say that the way you treat all vulnerable people in the US is disgusting and needs to be improved if you ever want to become a real first world country.

So sure, treat everyone the same. But do it by bringing the standard up, not by driving it down.

Of course you'll need to figure a way to get rid of the endemic hate and resentment first.

The first step is realizing that the main cause of problems with immigration are caused by the US handling of immigration. The immigrants want to work, but you don't like the idea of that. Which is kinda weird for a country that you stole two hundred years ago. You turn them into criminals because of the way you treat them & then blame them for becoming criminals.

 

[Deleted User]

deleted

 

[Deleted-401606]

I'd say that the way you treat all vulnerable people in the US is disgusting and needs to be improved if you ever want to become a real first world country.

So sure, treat everyone the same. But do it by bringing the standard up, not by driving it down.

Of course you'll need to figure a way to get rid of the endemic hate and resentment first.

The first step is realizing that the main cause of problems with immigration are caused by the US handling of immigration. The immigrants want to work, but you don't like the idea of that. Which is kinda weird for a country that you stole two hundred years ago. You turn them into criminals because of the way you treat them & then blame them for becoming criminals.

We are a first world country and the most powerful country in the world. How about you guys get rid of your outdated class system and treat the Pakistani immigrants with more respect first before you start pointing fingers at other countries.

 

[Deleted-481927]

We are a first world country and the most powerful country in the world. How about you guys get rid of your outdated class system and treat the Pakistani immigrants with more respect first before you start pointing fingers at other countries.

smh every country does bad shit

here in england we have Yarl's Wood

USA the camps on border

no one deserves this treatment

 

[Taleweaver]

You have 15 million people using "free" health care, which is 15 million people x amount of their costs. Tell me how having to use our taxes to pay for their costs (aka, it's not FREE), doesn't increase the cost to normal citizens. (15 million is an estimated number, I don't have any real sources for it, but even if the number was 5 million, my point still stands).

Sorry... Did you personally invent the US medical system? Because if not, there is no reason to take it personally, let alone play a game of 'my system is better than yours'.

But meh... Since you seem to care : I pray a yearly sum to a 'mutualiteit'... I think it's best translated as a state funded insurance (yes... Like Obamacare. He didn't invent the wheel). It's about 50 euro. On top of that there is a monthly tax derived monthly from everyone who works in Belgium. About 50 euro, roughly estimated. So per year, I guesstimate I pay around 650 euros.

'hey, that's not free!'
Of course not. I'm not responsible for your ignorance, so when you're the one calling it free or "free", then that's your error, not mine. I just said yours was one of the worst in the forums and you're not proving me wrong.

Because what do I get for that contribution? More or less everything. When I visit the doctor, it's on average about 20 euros, which is refunded to me be my mutualiteit(meaning : those illegal aliens have to suck up that incredibly high sum of about a days meal). Medicine? More or less the same, unless you REALLY want a specific brand of medicine.

That is certainly one of the main differences : our government curates medicine and pays back (roughly) the cheapest medicine that's proven to work. That way, medicines are on a race to the bottom in terms of price.
Americans (or at least your representatives) don't follow that reasoning. You don't consider this a task for the government, which means that companies who hold a patent can literally ask what they want for a medicine. And because the lobbying groups hold lots of political power, there is no incentive to change that.

...but ey: keep blaming the immigrants. It's not because it defies any logic that they are to blame that you can't blame them for it.

 

[Rolf12]

Sorry... Did you personally invent the US medical system? Because if not, there is no reason to take it personally, let alone play a game of 'my system is better than yours'.

But meh... Since you seem to care : I pray a yearly sum to a 'mutualiteit'... I think it's best translated as a state funded insurance (yes... Like Obamacare. He didn't invent the wheel). It's about 50 euro. On top of that there is a monthly tax derived monthly from everyone who works in Belgium. About 50 euro, roughly estimated. So per year, I guesstimate I pay around 650 euros.

'hey, that's not free!'
Of course not. I'm not responsible for your ignorance, so when you're the one calling it free or "free", then that's your error, not mine. I just said yours was one of the worst in the forums and you're not proving me wrong.

Because what do I get for that contribution? More or less everything. When I visit the doctor, it's on average about 20 euros, which is refunded to me be my mutualiteit(meaning : those illegal aliens have to suck up that incredibly high sum of about a days meal). Medicine? More or less the same, unless you REALLY want a specific brand of medicine.

That is certainly one of the main differences : our government curates medicine and pays back (roughly) the cheapest medicine that's proven to work. That way, medicines are on a race to the bottom in terms of price.
Americans (or at least your representatives) don't follow that reasoning. You don't consider this a task for the government, which means that companies who hold a patent can literally ask what they want for a medicine. And because the lobbying groups hold lots of political power, there is no incentive to change that.

...but ey: keep blaming the immigrants. It's not because it defies any logic that they are to blame that you can't blame them for it.

That is a nice system. Pretty much the same as here in sweden. Too bad that lately private insurances light, are making their way in. Involuntarily subsidized by government, so an insurance costs 75€. Making people believe "oh, private healthcare is so cheap and good". A real private would insurance costs about 500€ and up. Hope we dont go there.
To sum it up, free healthcare for all citizens! And some healthcare for everyone else.

 

[smf]

We are a first world country and the most powerful country in the world.

Well you're certainly the best at stealing, which is why you elected a corrupt president.

I do wonder when you're going to get over britain though, we've moved on but you still keep dragging up the past every 4th of July like a drunken facebook stalk of an ex.

 

[cots]

ok so rape is ok if you cross the border

okay

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nvm im dumb i misread that but it seems like ur justifying it happening

its not a consequence of the border crossing - it's a consequence of corrupt border patrol agents

No, rape isn't okay, but it happens everywhere. It's not inclusive to people in border patrol custody nor does it just happen by corrupt border patrol agents. When you put a bunch of criminals together the end result is usually a lot of Illegal activity. You're completely missing the point and not adressing the root cause of the problem. You're only adressing the symptoms, which isn't going to "cure" the issue.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Sorry... Did you personally invent the US medical system? Because if not, there is no reason to take it personally, let alone play a game of 'my system is better than yours'.

But meh... Since you seem to care : I pray a yearly sum to a 'mutualiteit'... I think it's best translated as a state funded insurance (yes... Like Obamacare. He didn't invent the wheel). It's about 50 euro. On top of that there is a monthly tax derived monthly from everyone who works in Belgium. About 50 euro, roughly estimated. So per year, I guesstimate I pay around 650 euros.

'hey, that's not free!'
Of course not. I'm not responsible for your ignorance, so when you're the one calling it free or "free", then that's your error, not mine. I just said yours was one of the worst in the forums and you're not proving me wrong.

Because what do I get for that contribution? More or less everything. When I visit the doctor, it's on average about 20 euros, which is refunded to me be my mutualiteit(meaning : those illegal aliens have to suck up that incredibly high sum of about a days meal). Medicine? More or less the same, unless you REALLY want a specific brand of medicine.

That is certainly one of the main differences : our government curates medicine and pays back (roughly) the cheapest medicine that's proven to work. That way, medicines are on a race to the bottom in terms of price.
Americans (or at least your representatives) don't follow that reasoning. You don't consider this a task for the government, which means that companies who hold a patent can literally ask what they want for a medicine. And because the lobbying groups hold lots of political power, there is no incentive to change that.

...but ey: keep blaming the immigrants. It's not because it defies any logic that they are to blame that you can't blame them for it.

I'm not blaming Illegal immigrants for other problems not related to them that raise health care costs, I'm directly blaming them for how much they cost us normal citizens. Say, you have one on emergency Medicaid that visits the emergency room and gets a bill for $5,000. I'm blaming them for using our money regardless if thier bill is 5k or ten dollars. We shouldn't condone and encourage Illegal behavior, period.

Although, I think debating legalities with a bunch of Liberal brats, that probably don't pay rent and bitch at Nintendo for the quality of the games they're stealing from them is pointless. Look, you either follow the law or you're a lousy peice of shit and I wish the worse happens to you are your people because you deserve it. I'll simply wave to you when you're drowning.

 

[Xzi]

No, rape isn't okay, but it happens everywhere. It's not inclusive to people in border patrol custody nor does it just happen by corrupt border patrol agents. When you put a bunch of criminals together the end result is usually a lot of Illegal activity. You're completely missing the point and not adressing the root cause of the problem. You're only adressing the symptoms, which isn't going to "cure" the issue.

Jesus fucking Christ. There goes any shred of credibility you might've had left and any chance of anyone here taking you seriously ever again. If you're willing to excuse away government agents committing rape because "it happens everywhere," then why are you complaining about the much lesser crime of crossing the border outside authorized ports of entry? By your logic, we might as well not have any established laws, because we aren't going to enforce them anyway.

 

[Taleweaver]

I'm not blaming Illegal immigrants for other problems not related to them that raise health care costs, I'm directly blaming them for how much they cost us normal citizens. Say, you have one on emergency Medicaid that visits the emergency room and gets a bill for $5,000. I'm blaming them for using our money regardless if thier bill is 5k or ten dollars. We shouldn't condone and encourage Illegal behavior, period.

In a roundabout way, you say that the real problem is that us citizens tend to give these people jobs. If they didn't, they soon wouldn't have money left (if they had any to begin with). And more so : wouldn't be coming to the US to begin with.
Not sure what that last statement is about. But hey : if ending posts with hollowphrases that everyone agrees with is a thing, then I'll join in:
"The economy is money changing hands, period. "

Although, I think debating legalities with a bunch of Liberal brats, that probably don't pay rent and bitch at Nintendo for the quality of the games they're stealing from them is pointless. Look, you either follow the law or you're a lousy peice of shit and I wish the worse happens to you are your people because you deserve it. I'll simply wave to you when you're drowning.

Wrong about Nintendo, but correct on the rent :I don't pay any. I own two houses(1), so I COLLECT rent instead. From a Pakistanian immigrant, no less. Who entered the country legally (I feel embarrassed I even had to mention this) and has an honest job.

(1): while cool, it has its drawbacks. Most notable the mortgage, which I'll need to be paying for the next 25 years

 

[supersonicwaffle]

Sorry... Did you personally invent the US medical system? Because if not, there is no reason to take it personally, let alone play a game of 'my system is better than yours'.

But meh... Since you seem to care : I pray a yearly sum to a 'mutualiteit'... I think it's best translated as a state funded insurance (yes... Like Obamacare. He didn't invent the wheel). It's about 50 euro. On top of that there is a monthly tax derived monthly from everyone who works in Belgium. About 50 euro, roughly estimated. So per year, I guesstimate I pay around 650 euros.

'hey, that's not free!'
Of course not. I'm not responsible for your ignorance, so when you're the one calling it free or "free", then that's your error, not mine. I just said yours was one of the worst in the forums and you're not proving me wrong.

Because what do I get for that contribution? More or less everything. When I visit the doctor, it's on average about 20 euros, which is refunded to me be my mutualiteit(meaning : those illegal aliens have to suck up that incredibly high sum of about a days meal). Medicine? More or less the same, unless you REALLY want a specific brand of medicine.

That is certainly one of the main differences : our government curates medicine and pays back (roughly) the cheapest medicine that's proven to work. That way, medicines are on a race to the bottom in terms of price.
Americans (or at least your representatives) don't follow that reasoning. You don't consider this a task for the government, which means that companies who hold a patent can literally ask what they want for a medicine. And because the lobbying groups hold lots of political power, there is no incentive to change that.

...but ey: keep blaming the immigrants. It's not because it defies any logic that they are to blame that you can't blame them for it.

Excuse my ignorange on Belgium's health care system but I got a question.

Your numbers seemed to be way off, i.e. way too low to finance any amount of significant health care service. I tried looking it up and what I found was that in Belgium you pay roughly 45% of your gross income for social insurance with a split of 13% employee and 32% employer. Is that correct?
Estimating about a third of social insurance is health care, the cost is roughly 700€ per month for the average income of 61,135€ a year in Belgium.

With these estimations and numbers, 50€ a month turns out best out to be 1153€ gross monthly income which is singificantly below the poverty line.

So, how do you arrive at 50€, do you make so little? Do you ignore the employer share? Do you get benefits as a student? Am I missing something?

 

[SG854]

If that were true, other places with actually high immigration would have also high medical bills. This isn't the case. Ergo: the cause of your high medical support isn't that.

I'm also not sure why you think this is an issue. You don't migrate to Europe for decent Healthcare, right? So why would others come to the USA if your medical bills were upgraded from "one of the worst in the world" to... Say... "average"?

The money has to come from somewhere right, to pay for those medical services. It only makes sense that the more people that use it the more expenses they have to pay.


I don’t think that people migrate here specifically to use the medical service. I think they use it since they are already here and go to the nearest clinic because its the closest instead of traveling cross country.


Although there are stories that pop up of leaders from around the world coming to the U.S. to use our medical service.


Like a Canadian politician. And a Saudi Prince.
https://www.medpagetoday.com/cardiology/acutecoronarysyndrome/18279


And right here talks about how people from other countries that search for the most advance treatment come to the U.S. 38% from Latin America, 35% from the Middle East, 16% from Europe, 7% from Canada. So U.S. does have visitors specially for Medical Treatment.

https://www.forbes.com/2008/05/25/h..._avd_outsourcing08_0529healthoutsourcing.html

 

[supersonicwaffle]

If that were true, other places with actually high immigration would have also high medical bills. This isn't the case. Ergo: the cause of your high medical support isn't that.

I'm also not sure why you think this is an issue. You don't migrate to Europe for decent Healthcare, right? So why would others come to the USA if your medical bills were upgraded from "one of the worst in the world" to... Say... "average"?

So comparing health insurance cost is a bit janky because not the same things may be covered but according to the following article health insurance in the US is lower than a lot of places in Europe.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/23/heres-how-much-the-average-american-spends-on-health-care.html

From your other post as well it seems like you're vastly underestimating the cost of the health care system.

 

[SG854]

So comparing health insurance cost is a bit janky because not the same things may be covered but according to the following article health insurance in the US is lower than a lot of places in Europe.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/23/heres-how-much-the-average-american-spends-on-health-care.html

From your other post as well it seems like you're vastly underestimating the cost of the health care system.

The Single Payer NHS system has its problems.

Thousands of patients were begging for hip replacements because they were rationing.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ents-beg-treatment-cuts-funding-a8453531.html



They are rationing MRI scans. Bureaucrats instead of doctors choose who has access to MRI Cancer scans.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/...tion-cancer-scans-bureaucratic-directive.html




They had to ration cataracts surgery. And patients were at risk of going blind.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...g-cataracts-patients-nearly-blind-nhs-warned/




More rationing like drugs to treat arthritis was withheld.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-40485724



They are trying to cut costs so they don’t overspend government funds. When people perceive something to be free they use more of it and use it wastefully leaving less for other people. People become basically greedy. And people often go visit the doctor more often for minor things because it’s free so why not, when otherwise they wouldn’t have if the perception of free wasn’t there. This drives up costs and forces them to ration.

Prime minister had to beg citizens not to overuse health services.

https://fortune.com/2018/07/10/nhs-70-years-uk-britain-single-payer/

 

[supersonicwaffle]

The Single Payer NHS system has its problems.

Thousands of patients were begging for hip replacements because they were rationing.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ents-beg-treatment-cuts-funding-a8453531.html



They are rationing MRI scans. Bureaucrats instead of doctors choose who has access to MRI Cancer scans.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/...tion-cancer-scans-bureaucratic-directive.html




They had to ration cataracts surgery. And patients were at risk of going blind.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...g-cataracts-patients-nearly-blind-nhs-warned/




More rationing like drugs to treat arthritis was withheld.

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-40485724



They are trying to cut costs so they don’t overspend government funds. When people perceive something to be free they use more of it and use it wastefully leaving less for other people. People become basically greedy. And people often go visit the doctor more often for minor things because it’s free so why not, when otherwise they wouldn’t have if the perception of free wasn’t there. This drives up costs and forces them to ration.

Prime minister had to beg citizens not to overuse health services.

https://fortune.com/2018/07/10/nhs-70-years-uk-britain-single-payer/

I'm aware of the struggles of single payer or multi payer models as we've discussed earlier that in Germany it lead to workforce exploitation and has driven down quality.
What I'm concerned with in this case is that people make it out to be really cheap and obfuscate the real cost. Maybe that's because these systems often require the employer to pay some amount of it so it looks much cheaper than it actually is.

@Taleweaver came up with a number of roughly 700€ a year when in reality (based on my research, which may be wrong) I estimate it to be closer to 700€ a month for the average citizen in Belgium. That's understating the cost by a factor of 12 and at that point you're not even making an argument anymore.

 

[Taleweaver]

Excuse my ignorange on Belgium's health care system but I got a question.

Your numbers seemed to be way off, i.e. way too low to finance any amount of significant health care service. I tried looking it up and what I found was that in Belgium you pay roughly 45% of your gross income for social insurance with a split of 13% employee and 32% employer. Is that correct?
Estimating about a third of social insurance is health care, the cost is roughly 700€ per month for the average income of 61,135€ a year in Belgium.

With these estimations and numbers, 50€ a month turns out best out to be 1153€ gross monthly income which is singificantly below the poverty line.

So, how do you arrive at 50€, do you make so little? Do you ignore the employer share? Do you get benefits as a student? Am I missing something?

Fair point. In truth, our nett income is indeed nearly 50% of our gross income, meaning about half good to state (and is one of the highest in the world with that). However, social insurance is far more than health care. Subsidizes, unemployment wages, all taxes for services... Al of that is included in that package as well. The medical aspect is but one factor of that, so I'm certainly not below the poverty line (I'm about on the median, really).

 

[supersonicwaffle]

Fair point. In truth, our nett income is indeed nearly 50% of our gross income, meaning about half good to state (and is one of the highest in the world with that).

That's still ignoring what the employer pays on top of your gross income (32% of gross income for social insurances).

However, social insurance is far more than health care. Subsidizes, unemployment wages, all taxes for services... Al of that is included in that package as well.

Which is why I estimated about a third of it is health care and I believe that's a fairly conservative estimation. Health care and Pension are usually the biggest factors here.

The medical aspect is but one factor of that, so I'm certainly not below the poverty line (I'm about on the median, really).

Yes and if you take 50€ times it by 3 (because I assume health care makes up about a third) you get 150€ which is supposed to be 13% of your gross income if you use the most generous calculation, you arrive at 1154€ gross income a month.
You didn't say my research was incorrect so I assume the true cost for a median income Belgium citizen for health insurance to be somewhere around 700€ a month, while you were making the argument it's about 700€ a year.

 

[Taleweaver]

The money has to come from somewhere right, to pay for those medical services. It only makes sense that the more people that use it the more expenses they have to pay.

Not really. The pharmaceutical industry always claims its mostly the cost of R&D that keeps the prices up. If more people use the service, the cost should go down, as all participants pay a smaller amount of the same r&d.

Perhaps two real life examples might help :
1) I went on vacation in bulgary a couple years ago (one of the poorest countries in the EU, mind you). I had a middle ear infection there and had to see a doctor. Cost... Somewhere little under 100 euro.
2) a colleague of mine went to New York. Had something similar small. Was in a hospital for 15 minutes in total. Cost... About 200 bucks. Felt okay to be at first, considering how notorious your system is in the rest of the world.
But somewhere after he vexation, she got a call. How was she willing to pay the rest. The... Rest? Turns out that the medical bill was but a small part, and a whole slew of administrative costs and insurance weren't put into account. Total cost : over a thousand bucks.[/QUOTE]

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

So comparing health insurance cost is a bit janky because not the same things may be covered but according to the following article health insurance in the US is lower than a lot of places in Europe.
https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/23/heres-how-much-the-average-american-spends-on-health-care.html

From your other post as well it seems like you're vastly underestimating the cost of the health care system.

Erm... Did you accidentally quote the wrong article? It doesn't compare anything, but mentions the worrying tends like your steady rise of costs and consequences.

 

[supersonicwaffle]

Erm... Did you accidentally quote the wrong article? It doesn't compare anything, but mentions the worrying tends like your steady rise of costs and consequences.

No I didn't, I used the figures stated in the article to compare it to health care costs I stated in my earlier post or cost here in Germany (roughly 500€ for the average income person). This means the average american family pays more but a single person pays less according to the article.

With regards to worrying trends like steady rise of cost I'd suggest looking into the rise of costs for our health care systems over here. In Germany the percentage of gross income that you have to pay has nearly doubled in the last 50 years.

 

[Youkai]

It should be easier to legaly immigrate but then again there need to be strict rules like some kind of "school" you have to visit first to learn how to behave in the specific country where you want to immigrate plus the requirements to be able to speak the language at least good enough to be able to communicate with people.

I often notice that the biggest problem seems that "foreigners" often don't know how to behave because stuff that might be okay in their country doesn't need to be okay wherever they go to.
(you often notice with tourists who behave like idiots even though thats not only because of not know but because of humans beeing idiots especially when they assume they won't see any of the people who see them behaving bad ever again)

in Germany we often have Woman complaining about foreigners that try to or even do touch them and stuff because they probably learned in their country that woman have to obey and you can do with them however you please ... but here it is not like that, still they just do it like they were thaught by their fathers. Or many of them using the train but don't "know?" that they need to actually buy a valid ticket ... even though I doubt that they really don't know.


Every Immigrant that fits in society and works, pays his taxes and is "nice" is a good Immigrant and a positive addition