The Illegal Immigration Non-Crisis in the USA

Discussion in 'World News, Current Events & Politics' started by cots, Jul 4, 2019.

  1. cots
    OP

    cots GBAtemp Maniac

    Member
    9
    Dec 29, 2014
    United States
    https://www-m.cnn.com/2019/07/03/po...-facilities/index.html?r=https://www.cnn.com/

    The buzz in the news lately has been the overcrowded, but generally better condition that a lot of people who have been crossing the Southern border of illegally have found themselves in. Current policies encourage people to illegally bypass our border checkpoints and cross in dangerous locations because the policies then allow them to get free health insurance (emergency Medicaid), food assistance (SNAP gives them the option to not have to provide or prove they are a legal resident of the USA) and free housing. That's if they successfully sneak into the country otherwise they may die or find themselves in worse conditions than the likely outcome, which is they are apprehended and put into detention facilities (as they are breaking the law).

    So the current policies encourage them to risk their own lives along with their children's for a free shot at living large, which puts a burden on the USA economy, brings with it drug smuggling and people who sell children for sex and enables criminals, who are organizing caravans of thousands of migrants to profit. It also gives the certain people that are not only personally profiting financially more votes because in thier districts they allow non-citizens to vote, while both the general public and the immigrants suffer.

    Well, I don't see the general condition they find themselves in worse than what most of them came from and they are still being treated better than our own citizens that are homeless, without food or an airconditioned place to sleep. I think we should get rid of the policies encouraging the illegals and anyone in our government that is supporting this lawless act and cut the current detainees daily meals to what you would find in the Arizona Maricopa County Jail and cut off their air conditioning and make them live in tents like our homeless people are having to do because the Illegal immigrants are more of a priority than they are.

    With that said I'm wondering what people from other countries, specifically not the USA or any south of our borders what they think about these policies? How does your country handle Illegal immigration and do you think it's wise to have no sort of border system with countries not in your Union or what have you?
     
  2. zomborg

    zomborg Makin Temp great again

    Member
    4
    Apr 17, 2015
    United States
    I'm not from another country but I agree with your viewpoint on Illegal aliens. Also they are not "just" undocumented migrants. They are illegal aliens. Illegal because they broke our law in crossing our border without permission and alien because they are citizens of another country.

    Their key excuse for coming here illegally is to make a better life for they and family and we should not hold it against them for breaking our laws in an effort to provide a better future for their families.

    However, if I were to use their logic, then I would be justified if, in an attempt to make things better for my family, I go and rob a bank. Then after the authorities catch me, instead of jailing me, they give me food, free health care, free housing and a job as a reward for breaking the law.

    My friend @Maluma did it by the book. He went through the process and became a legal citizen of the United States of America.
     
  3. Lacius

    Lacius GBAtemp Legend

    Member
    18
    May 11, 2008
    United States
    That's quite the low bar. It doesn't mean the conditions aren't deplorable, and the Republicans are responsible. The same goes for homelessness in the US.
     
  4. monkeyman4412

    monkeyman4412 Gbatemp's moronic trash

    Member
    8
    Jun 16, 2016
    United States
    Darn, I can't come up with something edgy
    Let's just ignore the fact we (united states) screwed several countries nearby, funded terrorist groups to overthrow their government because we didn't like what they were doing.
    yeah. It's completely their fault that we fucked up their home, caused problems where they lived, and then proceed to piss off and act like we didn't do anything.
    To then when the problem comes back to us in the ass we decide to give the middle finger to them.
    I think I rest my case, look at the states when the intermingled with other county affairs, you might learn something.
     
    Last edited by monkeyman4412, Jul 5, 2019
    Lacius, brunocar, ChromoTec and 2 others like this.
  5. Xzi

    Xzi All your base are belong to the proletariat

    pip Contributor
    20
    Dec 26, 2013
    United States
    Spiraling Out
    So I see we're just going to ignore the fact that many of these people are seeking asylum legally and being subjected to near-torturous conditions. Classic cots.
     
    Last edited by Xzi, Jul 5, 2019
  6. Taleweaver

    Taleweaver Storywriter

    Member
    13
    Dec 23, 2009
    Belgium
    Belgium
    Erm... Your source only mentions that trump said so. So it's not 'news that's being overcrowded', but reporters believing humanitarian workers rather than a notorious liar.

    First of all, we don't assume that migrants are criminals. They're refugees from unstable countries, that's all. There's somewhat of a tension between political groups here as well, in the sense that the debate is on whether sending them back is allowed or not.

    The conditions... I think it's mostly the USA treating their unemployed and homeless like shit (sorry). The same politicians who want to send immigrants back also often criticize the 'pampering' of our unemployed, but the truth is that while we give them enough to survive, it's not really a large sum.
    Immigrants get somewhat in the same area, but are restricted in their rights until it is decided (case by case based) on whether they can become citizens or not.

    Admitted : Belgium is in a luxury position. Our neighbors are equally rich, so immigrants rarely come from there (or more to the point : these are the largest part, but we welcome them because they mostly move here because their new jobs are already here). When looking at Europe... We're in two minds. We're not fans of how Italy stops boats in the Mediterranean sea not turkey and Greece s policies on the mass migration from a while ago (it hasn't stopped, but slowed down a bit), but we're turning a blind eye.
     
    Last edited by Taleweaver, Jul 5, 2019
  7. D34DL1N3R

    D34DL1N3R Nephilim

    Member
    7
    Dec 6, 2008
    United States
    There's just so much complete crap in the OP I don't even know where to begin. So I wont. I'll let someone else handle it. But really? This guy? Again????
     
  8. Rolf12

    Rolf12 Advanced Member

    Newcomer
    2
    Apr 27, 2019
    Afghanistan
    Quite a lot of it. I reckon this person is not feeling well mentally and has to take it out on other, or it is simply trolling. I mostly feel sorry for (probably) him.
     
  9. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

    Member
    10
    Sep 18, 2007
    This follows the incredible intelligent logic of law is idol. So anyone who breaks law is bad and not as religiously pure as I am. The wrath of god shall strike them down.

    Lets deal with this in steps.

    Do you know about the concept of "theft of food" (Mundraub in german, we have a specific word for it)?

    Its basically legal, although illegal. In every civilized society. So you go through the rigamarole of a legal process, then you let the accused party go.

    In fact - I have a supermarket near me thats on the edge of an affluent part of the city and a not so well off one. Its privately run. (Although under a common brand). Every time the theft alarm goes off in there - which is maybe once every three months I am there - nobody does anything. We don't even look. Because if you are a poor person, that has to steal food at the end of the month just to get by - in our society - we don't pray upon you. We dont even call the police. We let it slide.

    Do you know about the concept of law basically being a mirror of public opinion? Here is a morbid case law example - that touches very much on that point.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_v_Dudley_and_Stephens

    If you understood those two concepts - the thing you are doing is basically just the following.

    "I dont like people coming to my country - without a permit" - "because I dont like it" - with the social gratification of a law, that tells others collectively its ok to not like it - because its illegal.

    Again - its nothing of substance. :)

    Circumstance is the deciding factor in case law - between 10% and 100% of a max sentence. If you leave it out of the argument - you are arguing legal issues - as principals - which doesnt work. In principal - it doesnt. The whole defendants, lawyers, judges thing? Is there because it doesnt. :) Otherwise - police, lock em up and call it a day.. ;)


    When it comes to asylum. All thats really needed to wave laws is a political directive, or even just a community complaining - that it is unfair to send someone back. If they complain loud enough - there a legal avenues to lift processes and proceedings.

    Whats constitutes "legal" - in this case is directly corresponding to/with what happens in the world.

    We as societies - don't have a problem with migrants. (In a legal sense.) We don't have a problem with migrants that migrate to "have a better life" (in a legal sense) - because historically - thats all migrants ever wanted. (With different levels of necessity - as in survival being the first, ...)

    We have laws and regulations - because we have an issue - when migration pressure gets out of hand. We very much dont like that as societies.

    And now - where that point is - isnt even defined. Its again - a matter of public reaction.

    Meaning - even if there is a law that states - that migration from a certain country is illegal. It might become legal, if more people from that country start to migrate - having an accepted necessity to do so. So its a sort of law, thats only strict as long as you can still hand it to local authorities going all power trippy over it - and there are many concepts that superseed it.

    Until an issue becomes so problematic, that we pivot back to being hardliners on it. :)


    Then as discussed in here many times before - there are different levels of allowing people from other countries in. Visas. Permits. Titles. Work permits. Asylum. Its not just do we let all of them in?

    Its also - do we let some of them in for two years - then ship/fly them back - to save cost overall...

    Its not - in fact it is never - lock them up for the crimes they have commited. (Because that would be the most costly.)

    So in many, many senses - in fact - in all of them, it is NOT 'like robbing a bank'. At all.. ;)

    So.

    Now lets talk about migrant caravans. (Many people fleeing a war the US started, for example.) There is no rule of law on mass migration tracks. People more often than not, try to flee from their own countries, because of wars, oppression, lack of rule of law, economic reasons. So while they are 'fleeing' they cant resort to 'a state of law'. They are out of the law by definition. Meaning conditions are pretty awful. Meaning - that there are people praying on them for the duration of their journey - because humans.

    So when they arrive - you have to deal with them. You never just say "go away". You say "go away" for the media in one or two isolated instances (Australia shooting migrant boats (then rescuing the people on them)). But you always attend to those people. Because - some of them really are in need of help.

    You show "tough love" and "injustice" afterwards (to get numbers down), but you attend to them first.

    All of that - again - is basic human decency. That gets less and less - the more migration pressure increases.

    In general you at least owe them to hear out their story because thats also part of deciding if they can be "legal" or not. You dont just see a gaggle of migrants and pronounce them "illegals". Rule of law.

    And again - none of this is like a bank robbery.


    Last concept to learn. Being against illegal migrants, because of the law is "Sheriff has ordered, everyone in our town has to wear a hat, partner." type of legal sentiment. You may love it - but you probably do because of a feeling of authority. Its nothing that anyone has a real reason to be proud of. Its just odd, but "it works", and its presumably there for a reason.

    Law is not fixed. Law is not moral. Law just is, and can be changed, and does change depending on circumstances.

    If you break law - you arent necessarily a bad person. Look at circumstances first - they make all the difference. If you want a better life for you and your family - you are not a bad person. In fact, you are a freaking settler in american storytelling tropes.

    Its just - that if societies for themselves decide, that they cant or that they dont want to deal with the numbers - that you enact laws against it.


    Now tell me - if the native americans...

    ... if the dutch - would have never accepted people of other cultures...

    you would have never gotten a Godfather from Mario Puzo, you wouldnt have gotten a Scarface, you wouldnt have... those are all parts of your cultural make up - and parts where you dont always rub it in - how legally moral or amoral they were.

    Those are stories of human ambition, and hardship. Recognize that as well. As societies - we are quick to tell everyone "no we cant" anyhow. So at least dont paint perfect images of how things ought to be in an imperfect world - in one of the toughest circumstances out there.

    And if you do - and if you then start to idolize and feshize them ('In our town, everyone wears a hat.'), you are still doing it wrong. :)


    And here is the only reason that you do. if it is hard for you to see economic development, an updraft in social mobility. People start looking around - because they judge their lives worth by comparison. And as long as they see a class of people that are still poorer that they can run their mouth about - they can still remain happy.

    This is also something that just is. Part of how humans work.

    But its also the part that allows Trump to enact massive tax breaks on the super rich. While economic growth hasnt reached wages (wage growth) in america in 40 years. If you understand that - you'll never vote for someone like Trump again (demagogue). But I understand, that this is the hardest part. Take your time, and if you dont - dont. ;) Think for yourselves.
     
    Last edited by notimp, Jul 6, 2019
  10. AmandaRose

    AmandaRose Do what I do. Hold tight and pretend it’s a plan

    Member
    14
    Aug 19, 2015
    United Kingdom
    Glasgow
    Lol exactly well at least for once he has managed to post without saying

    "I don't want my taxes being used for (insert whatever his current rant is about here) “

    Like he does in every other thread he creates.
     
    IncredulousP, Lucifer666, Xzi and 2 others like this.
  11. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

    Member
    10
    Sep 18, 2007
    Here is a the videoclip to end this thread, if you would take everything in here seriously. :)

    It basically shows you how everything in relation to the issue (currently in the US) works. How separation of power works. How laws are made, interpreted, argued, what a governments position can be - and so on and so forth.

    Take the "this is concerning children" part out of it (emotion) - and you understand it exactly.

    After watching it there is no place for "I don't want my tax money to be wasted there" - because you actually understand what the deliberations are.

    Its somewhat of a perfect primer... :)

     
    Last edited by notimp, Jul 5, 2019
    CoolMe likes this.
  12. Ericthegreat

    Ericthegreat Not New Member

    Member
    10
    Nov 8, 2008
    United States
    Vana'diel
    I would like if we could them citizens, but I would also like if there was a way we could background check all of them first.... (wouldnt even mind if there was a windows like only if theyve sone somthing in x amount of years)
     
    Last edited by Ericthegreat, Jul 12, 2019
  13. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

    Member
    10
    Sep 18, 2007
    Thats never the issue. Society is basically a free sky jail if you think about it. ;) (Insert Rorschach quote. ;) )

    What you do instead is - have them live in facilities where they are under supervision for a while - and report those who show socially abnormal behavior.

    Again - if they leave a country almost all crimes that some (few) of them might have commited in their home country, become non relevant by definition.

    If they are fugitives on the run, and there is an open international warrant out for them - you just sweep them up. They usually come with passports if they can (identity protection). If they dont (smugglers taking the papers from them), chances that they are being kept in country are even lower to begin with.

    And to mindhack a certain fear that this concept touches upon - in all kinds of internal revolutions in the past - amnesties for prison inmates were granted 'quite liberally' - with the people responsible for it simply stating 'dont behave badly'. And societies still survived. Australia was founded on being a prison colony for gods sake.. :)

    That added to the image of "there are murderers, and rapists, and some of them - I imagine even are good people", just doesnt add up to - you've got to be afraid of them in principal.

    In Europe we took in houndreds of thousands of migrants in the the recent peak years. You get half a dozen of instances in every county - where some culturally revolting crimes are commited, that you would rather have not read about - much less experienced, and then it "peters out" into normal crime statistic stuff. (Which the police for some reason always list by nationality of birth to argue where they have to send more officers to... ;) ).

    Life is dangerous. If you are not going outside because of it - you are doing it wrong. And if you are weary of lets say 100.000 migrants, because a 5000th of them might commit crimes - you are doing it wrong again.

    No space to argue here.

    As societies - we dont have a problem with migration (Allthough its never as clean and sanetary and safe as you would like it to be) - unless the numbers (migration pressure) get too big. And what 'too big' is, is decided by public sentiment.

    If your angle is "terrorism". Idk. watch less movies, and get over 9/11 as a nation. Please. You cant always make decisions with that in the back of your mind.

    There are structures (think FBI, NSA) that are supposed to deal with stuff like that - when it comes down to it. Those are functions of societies that are still there and working.

    The police is as well. You dont hear, that gangs have taken over neighborhoods much these days - so, something must be going ok... ;)

    edit: Additional comment on the 'terrorism danger' scare. As the US has been quite active in the past a an active fraction of wars - they usually arent expected to take in many asylum seekers anyhow. Thats an argument that actually works on the international stage. Now - if you excuse my bluntness - I dont especially think, that the people coming from South America - want to flee to the US to become terrorists - because they'd have many more job opportunities in their native countries - for that line of work.. ;) Also - and thats the good news, the US hasnt openly intervened in South American conflicts in the recent past - so people coming from those regions, usually have no reason to view the US as an enemy of any kind. Low terrorism risk - is what I'm hinting at. Probably. Havent read studies on that.
     
    Last edited by notimp, Jul 5, 2019
    jupitteer likes this.
  14. Rolf12

    Rolf12 Advanced Member

    Newcomer
    2
    Apr 27, 2019
    Afghanistan
    Ash. So that's him. I remember him from the abortion thread....
     
    AmandaRose likes this.
  15. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

    Member
    10
    Sep 18, 2007
    Dont single out individuals to shun. It doesnt help. Letting them voice opinions actually does. Trust in society - that we will not drum something up purely in the image of an 'extreme' POV.

    We'll talk about it. We'll poke at fears. We'll poke at holes in the arguments. Then it'll all work out. ;)
     
  16. raystriker

    raystriker The powers that be

    Member
    7
    Dec 28, 2011
    India
    I see a few issues;
    -How many of these people are legitimately needing asylum? And how many of these people are leaving their country just because things got tough?
    -USA has enough space to accompany these people, but after you let them in, then what? Where will they go? What jobs will they work in? What is the USA getting in return?
     
    Ra1d and Gon Freecss like this.
  17. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

    Member
    10
    Sep 18, 2007
    Offtopic: Couldnt hurt to post it here - once. ;)

    Curtesy of someone at Giantbomb. ;) (src: https://www.giantbomb.com/forums/off-topic-31/rorschachs-opening-monologue-237021/ )

    The thing is, if we go to the movie screening - we like that character. We do. :)

    Just don't overdo it...

    (Too many purely right wing statements in this forum sometimes... ;) )
     
    Last edited by notimp, Jul 5, 2019
  18. cots
    OP

    cots GBAtemp Maniac

    Member
    9
    Dec 29, 2014
    United States
    How many of these people were taken advantage of by people organizing the caravans? Look, I'm not against immigration. My family came over from Britain 4 or 5 generations ago, but they did it legally.

    My problem is with the people who are sneaking across our borders, risking their lives along with their families and then are given all sorts of free services by people in power who support this kind of illegal nonsense (for votes to keep them in power), while the immigrants that are following the legal process are not a priority because of this.

    If you're just having a hard time or don't like where you're living or want to get free handouts then you shouldn't be allowed into the country. If you're actually being persecuted or need political asylum then you need to fill out the correct paperwork and get in line.

    We don't have infinite resources. You can't just come and go as you please into Mexico or Canada and start living there, using their public services that are meant for legal citizens who are in poverty, ignore their laws and then expect them to not do anything about it.

    I welcome immigrants. Legal immigrants, not illegal aliens. They can get the fuck out and I hope Trump keeps with the trend that the last President participated in and keeps arresting and deporting them. I also hope we can get rid of places and the people that ignore the laws and give these people free food, health care and housing, which would stop most of the incentive they have to come here to begin with.

    Then after that, use the money that is being spent on the illegals to house and feed our own homeless population, who has to currently wait in line behind the illegal immigrants for services.

    Whatever they want to do. You're free as a USA citizen to work wherever you want or live whenever you want. You just have to make enough money or have the proper skill set to do these things. If you follow the legal immigration process and become a USA citizen then I see problem in allowing you to use food stamps, get free medical care and housing until you can get your bearings and get a job and place to live.

    It's not about Race, Ethnicity or being against immigration. It's about protecting our borders, our economy and doing things to legal way. Open borders is a very bad idea. I mean, it's pretty easy right now to go to Canada or Mexico. You wait in line, show an ID, get your car checked (or if you're walking you get your belongings checked), you tell them why you're going into the country and how long you'll be there and you're allowed in). It's pretty simple. I know, I've done it.

    Having no checkpoints or not citizenship system would destroy our current way of life. Imagine running a business selling UHDTV's and having anyone being able to come into your store and simply take whatever they want and walk out without paying, when you had to pay for the stock.
     
    Gon Freecss and Fugelmir like this.
  19. Xzi

    Xzi All your base are belong to the proletariat

    pip Contributor
    20
    Dec 26, 2013
    United States
    Spiraling Out
    I mean, I don't want my tax dollars going to private prison companies running concentration camps for children, but here we are. None of us gets to pick and choose where our taxes are spent.

    For those interested in such information, 2600 magazine published a list of all the CBP facilities' addresses and phone numbers. Not all of them are used as immigrant detention centers, but many are:

    https://concentrationcamps.us/
     
    Last edited by Xzi, Jul 6, 2019
    IncredulousP likes this.
  20. SG854

    SG854 If It Bleeds, We Can Kill It

    Member
    12
    Feb 17, 2017
    Comoros
    Bernie Sanders does not support illegal immigration. He says it’s a Koch Brothers proposal. Because they exploit illegals for cheap labor.

    So there’s also Democratic politicians that do not support illegal immigration. And use to be the Democratic position from way before 2016. Right now Republicans have no problem with legal immigration. The issue with them isn’t immigration but illegal immigration. Blame gets put on Republicans for wanting a tighter system, and blame gets put on Democrat’s for loosening the asylum seeking system.


    Fareed Zakaria of CNN says that Trump was right about the asylum system. Says that asylum seeking should be only for a very few people. But they are trying to game the system to by pass immigration laws. And immigration has gotten to a 240% increase from 2014. He says we need to tighten the immigration system because of the problem it’s becoming. It’s a big deal seeing a Trump bashing network saying he’s right.


    The New York Times also caved in saying give Trump his boarder money, and the Democratic Party approved of Trumps 4.5 billion money because illegal immigration has become that much of a problem.

    And a few Democratic members are secretly aiding in immigration fraud to coach people to lie about not knowing Spanish and to lie about having an illness to game the system.


    All Democratic candidates raised their hand to give free health care to illegal immigrants. But that will encourage more people to illegally come to this country, making illegal problem worse, just to get free health care then go back to their home country. They will not live here, or work here, so they will not pay taxes here. They’ll just come for free health care then go back. Something we won’t be able to afford. U.S. is very different from European countries and is much bigger.




    And a side topic about Mexico: Elizabeth Warren in the first round of the Democratic debates said LatinX. It’s basically feminists and activists calling the Spanish language sexist and perpetuating the Patriarchy because words are gendered, and they are not gender inclusive for trans. Like Latino and Latina. So they are trying to change the entire Spanish language and they way they spoke for decades by adding an X “LatinX” to the gendered words. But tell a Spanish speaker or a Linguist to use the X and you’ll be laughed at.
     
    Last edited by SG854, Jul 7, 2019
    cots likes this.
  21. Xzi

    Xzi All your base are belong to the proletariat

    pip Contributor
    20
    Dec 26, 2013
    United States
    Spiraling Out
    Hilarious considering that right now many Americans go to Mexico for affordable healthcare and prescription drugs. But no, people from South America cannot go back to their home countries even if they wanted to, these countries are in crisis and most did not choose to leave willingly.

    I don't see an issue with what was stated at the Democratic debate: the only way to keep our population healthy is to make sure everybody inside our borders is healthy. Healthcare is a human right and should be treated as such. Health insurance companies and private hospitals are running a price-fixing scam, and regular Americans are the ones burdened by the consequences. If you need an ambulance ride to a hospital in Sweden and have to stay overnight, the average cost is around $50. And that's without insurance. In America you could potentially pay thousands for the same services even with insurance. The system is quite obviously broken.
     
    Last edited by Xzi, Jul 7, 2019
    IncredulousP likes this.
Quick Reply
Draft saved Draft deleted
Loading...