Hardware Why make a console that is backwards compatible ?

FAST6191

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Others have taken the tech reasons and there is not much I would add. I will also side with the more cynical among us that pose that an upscaled port (especially one made from a game that used halfway modern coding practices -- straight recompile might be a stretch but I do not think it too distant a concept) is the more lucrative option, that said virtual consoles and the like are probably all the evidence I will need there.

The alternative would be using powerful PC-grade hardware capable of 1:1 emulation of the earlier system which would make the Wii U unreasonably expensive.

Looking at the likes of Dolphin it does require the beefiest PC and I reckon the PS4/Xbone hardware could emulate it well enough. Finesse things a bit with game specific mods or even the source code to the original game...

I sold my former DSi to buy a 3DS (wouldn't have bought a 3DS if it didn't have BC).
Love them GBA and GB/GBC games.

Edit.
On the tech thing though I do have to wonder if they had a bit of a sunk cost thing going on as far as having put in however much to make their opengl a like SDK and all the other stuff that went with it.
 
D

Dork

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They gambled on the Game Pad ... and it's been a failure. Whoever decided the GamePad was a good idea should politely be shown the door.
Why? The Gamepad is cool.

Also, Wii U sales aren't bad, in fact they are pretty good, even outselling the Xbox One.

http://www.vgchartz.com/
Weekly Hardware Sales - December 21st
Wii U - 319,860
XOne - 307,366

Although the Xbox One isn't available in Japan, Xbox has never done well at all in Japan.

Also I think it's also worth mentioning this.

http://www.vgchartz.com/charts/weekly.php?reg=date=41630
Despite the PS4 sales are doubled of what the Wii U sales are, the Wii U still has a bigger software attach rate.
Weekly
Wii U - 1,403,817 (+42%)
PS4 - 1,000,956 (+11%)
 
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emigre

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Why? The Gamepad is cool.

Also, Wii U sales aren't bad, in fact they are pretty good, even outselling the Xbox One.

http://www.vgchartz.com/


Although the Xbox One isn't available in Japan, Xbox has never done well at all in Japan.

Also I think it's also worth mentioning this.

http://www.vgchartz.com/charts/weekly.php?reg=date=41630
Despite the PS4 sales are doubled of what the Wii U sales are, the Wii U still has a bigger software attach rate.


*Obligatory Vgchartz is shit post.*
 
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Dork

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It's a very comfy controller with many nice features, while retaining traditional controls. You got a NFC chip that lets you hold cards up to it to read data off of, all the flibidibidometers for motion-related controls, and most importantly you have a huge touchscreen at your disposal. Nearly all Wii U games can be played on the Gamepad itself and many games make good use of the gamepad like Nintendo Land or Wind Waker HD.
 
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Foxi4

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I really don't think they decided to use this architecture based on getting BC with the Wii for a rather simple reason... If they wanted, they could just make a whole new architecture and include the Wii hardware, it wouldn't add as much cost as in other consoles because the Wii was outdate and inexpensive hardware at launch.

They used this architecture because Nintendo's and many third party developers are already used to coding for this architecture, which helps decrease time/costs in training developers. Sony's and Microsoft's decision in using PC like hardware also has to do with this architecture being familiar with developers, decreasing the learning curve.

Also, I don't buy the "they invested a great deal of money and time on refining PPC7xx by adding an ARM core for background OS functionality and SIMD which is poor/non-existant on standard PPC7xx, miniaturizing the chip and putting three cores in it" for me this is pure conjecture.
Sony and Microsoft literally went door-to-door when they started designing their systems, they asked developers directly what they expect from a nextgen system and, bizzarely enough, they came up with very similar consoles in terms of the components. This is no coincidence - two huge companies and competitors in the field ended up with near-twin systems. Developers were clearly sick and tired of PowerPC - they wanted a system with as little need for microcode as possible, they wanted to focus on programming games, not programming systems to play their games which is why they chose x86_64.

Espresso is nobody else's but Nintendo's brainchild - call it conjuncture if you will, I have evidence to serve. Take a look at the PPC7xx family tree - there hasn't been any major developments in it since Broadway, which is also a Nintendo-exclusive chip. Look at what the article says:
"The 7xx family had its shortcomings, namely lack of SMP support and SIMD capabilities and a relatively weak FPU. Motorola's 74xx range of processors picked up where the 7xx left off."
At the starting point, PPC7xx didn't have SIMD capabilities at all, they were added per Nintendo's request. No other CPU's in that tree do any SIMD at all according to the article - only Gekko, Broadway and the Espresso are capable of them. And what about the co-operation and investments I speak of? Let's continue reading from the Gekko article:
"The project was announced in 1999 when IBM and Nintendo agreed to a one billion dollar contract for a CPU running at approximately 400 MHz."
Back before the Gamecube was released, Nintendo pumpled a billion dollars into IBM to design a chip for them, a chip that would serve their specific needs and IBM did just that - they created the Gekko. The last part of that paragraph is also important - the 74x is the continuation of this family, the 7xx was considered "done" already in terms of development.

Next came the Broadway, a direct successor to the Gamecube's Gekko, sharing many similarities and running at a higher clockspeed. Why did they go this way? Because Nintendo already spent lots of money and time on improving the PPC7xx architecture to serve gaming needs and they wanted to continue reaping profits off it.

Finally, we reach the Espresso, which again is the brainchild of an IBM and Nintendo relationship. Unsurprisingly, the Espresso contains an ARM chip on it - Starbucks, just like Hollywood, Nintendo's and AMD's graphics chip on the Wii contained an ARM chip Starlet. Why? For Wii background operations, just like on the Wii U.

Look at all these "lucky" coincidences showing that the three processors have much in common, that the PPC7xx family was at this point practically abandoned with Nintendo introducing improvements and keeping it alive over the decades. Why do I say that? Because that's what IBM said - let's head back to the PPC7xx family tree:
"IBM has ceased to publish a roadmap to the 750 family, in favor of marketing themselves as a custom processor vendor. Given IBM's resources, the 750 core will be produced with new features as long as there is a willing buyer. In particular, IBM has no public plans to produce an ordinary 750-based microprocessor in a process smaller than 90 nm, effectively phasing it out as a commodity chip competitive in such markets as networking equipment."
Let's read that carefuly - IBM ceased to publish a roadmap for the CPU family, they have no plans to produce PPC7xx in a process smaller than 90 nm which effectively means they have no plans of improving it, they effectively phase it out from the market but they are willing to produce and improve it as long as there's a willing buyer. What does that tell us?

It tells us that Nintendo specifically requested this and no other processor family - they wanted to stay backwards compatible, they did it by choice, with a three-fold reason - to stay backwards compatible, keep the development environment as similar to the Gamecube's and the Wii's as possilbe and continue to use an architecture they know - an architecture they invested a lot of money into and an architecture that they kept alive to this day.

But alas, this is all conjuncture... right? ;)
Looking at the likes of Dolphin it does require the beefiest PC and I reckon the PS4/Xbone hardware could emulate it well enough. Finesse things a bit with game specific mods or even the source code to the original game...
In other words, take the price of the PS4, add a $100 to it for the gamepad (or as Nintendo says, a $160 as far as I remember, which is a load of croak, but hey!) aaand... Wii U-ber? :D
 
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tatripp

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Is it better to have more or less features?
As long as the cost isn't affected dramatically, this is something that I would prefer in every game system.
 

beta4attack

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Think of it this way, what if you didn't have a Wii last gen? This way, you can enjoy new games and old ones from the Wii on one system instead of messing out on them or having to squeeze the extra cash, I, for one, didn't own a PS3 last gen, so if the PS4 was fully backward compatible, I wouldn't have had a thought and went out to buy it the second it released, but now I'm in a limbo, at the same time I want to play the KH remixes, Persona 5, Persona 4 Arena, Ni No Kuni, etc. but I also want the PS4 for KHIII and other games, so I can't really get either. So just think of it this way.
 

duffmmann

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Why not buy a used PS3 ?


Because the PS4 MIGHT eventually get it as a game I could play through a DL service or maybe even an updated port in the future. If enough games were there, I'd get a PS4 right now, but there simply aren't. The fact that many classic PS3 games MAY eventually be made available for the PS4 is why I would get a PS4 right now if I could. The way BC is being handled on the newest gen consoles (Wii U excluded) is very frustrating. If I could just play all the PS3 games right now on the PS4, I'd get a PS4 in a heartbeat. But instead, I'm stuck waiting in limbo, considering a used cheaper PS3, but would hate for a month later to find my favorite PS3 games available in some form on the PS4. If anything, I wish they'd just say what games will definitively be made available through the DL service or not. Ah well, its Sony's loss as of now.
 

cearp

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...Because it means that there's already a massive preexisting library of games for your console?

I don't think it's the be-all, end-all of a system or anything, but the advantage is pretty obvious.
one of the few posts i have seen from you where you haven't made a pun. :)
 

RodrigoDavy

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Now you're taking your own words out of contest just to disprove what I said. The part that I specifically didn't buy is that they wasted a great deal of money/time on doing this. When you said that, you were referring the money/time spent was specifically for making the Wii U backwards compatible.

When discussing whether or not the Wii U hardware as picked specifically for being bc with the wii.
Foxi4 said:
Taleweaver said:
(also osirisjem)Okay...I see what you guys are saying, but I think you've got things put upside down. I honestly don't believe nintendo started out with the idea that they should have backward compatibility (...)
Which is totally why they invested a great deal of money and time on refining PPC7xx by adding an ARM core for background OS functionality and SIMD which is poor/non-existant on standard PPC7xx, miniaturizing the chip and putting three cores in it.

You disproved yourself later in your last post

Foxi4 said:
"The project was announced in 1999 when IBM and Nintendo agreed to a one billion dollar contract for a CPU running at approximately 400 MHz."

Which means the great amount of money expent was in the Gamecube's Gekko not Wii U's Espresso.

And according to the Wikipedia article you just passsed me...

Gekko is the custom central processor for the Nintendo GameCube game console. It is based on a PowerPC 750CXe and adds about 50 new instructions as well as a modified FPU capable of some SIMD functionality.

Meaning Nintendo's have had SIMD functionalites in their processors since the Gamecube.

Now, what are you gonna say? That the Gamecube itself was designed so that the Wii U could be backwards compatible with the Wii?
 

Foxi4

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The Wii U's CPU is a direct descendant of Gekko, it has SIMD because Nintendo wanted it, standard PPC7xx does not, or is that unclear? Nintendo invested in their own design of PPC7xx, don't be silly.
 

ShadowSoldier

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Seems to me that it's a bad idea for the Wii U to be backwards compatible with Wii games.
I doubt Xbox1 and PS4 are backwards compatible.
Seems like it ties you to the past, restricting the future.

I can't tell if you're being serious or being stupid.
But the least popular console (Wii U) has backwards compatibility and the more popular consoles (xB1, ps4) don't.

The Wii was the most popular console last gen and it had backwards compatibility.
 

Wisenheimer

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Others have taken the tech reasons and there is not much I would add. I will also side with the more cynical among us that pose that an upscaled port (especially one made from a game that used halfway modern coding practices -- straight recompile might be a stretch but I do not think it too distant a concept) is the more lucrative option, that said virtual consoles and the like are probably all the evidence I will need there.



Looking at the likes of Dolphin it does require the beefiest PC and I reckon the PS4/Xbone hardware could emulate it well enough. Finesse things a bit with game specific mods or even the source code to the original game...


Love them GBA and GB/GBC games.

Edit.
On the tech thing though I do have to wonder if they had a bit of a sunk cost thing going on as far as having put in however much to make their opengl a like SDK and all the other stuff that went with it.


Dolphin, like most emulators, relies on high clock speed single threaded performance to brute force chip interpreters or JIT compilers.

The PS4 and XB1 use a low power AMD cpu designed for low power devices like tablets, netbooks, and ultabooks and multitasking on power saving servers. It is not the ideal CPU for emulation.

You want a high p I wer CPU, especially an i5 or i7.
 

osirisjem

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Dear Nintendo:

Here's a little tip why you shouldn't make your consoles backwards compatible.
Sony and Microsoft don't have just one console that outsold yours during Christmas ... they have TWO consoles EACH that outsold your Console.

FYI,
Reality.

Global sales ending Dec 28, 2013 [link]
Weekly sales / Lifetime sales
PS4 465,686 / 4,131,558
PS3 366,829 / 82,295,601
XOne 290,762 / 2,933,095
X360 263,376 / 81,040,210
WiiU 220,732 / 5,249,664
 

FAST6191

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Dear Nintendo:

Here's a little tip why you shouldn't make your consoles backwards compatible.
Sony and Microsoft don't have just one console that outsold yours during Christmas ... they have TWO consoles EACH that outsold your Console.

FYI,
Reality.

Global sales ending Dec 28, 2013 [link]
Weekly sales / Lifetime sales
PS4 465,686 / 4,131,558
PS3 366,829 / 82,295,601
XOne 290,762 / 2,933,095
X360 263,376 / 81,040,210
WiiU 220,732 / 5,249,664

Correlation and causation?

Given the PS4bone is the latest and greatest from some electronics heavyweights and the Wii U is nothing that has not really been done before might that have some to do with it instead.
 
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tbgtbg

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Dear Nintendo:

Here's a little tip why you shouldn't make your consoles backwards compatible.
Sony and Microsoft don't have just one console that outsold yours during Christmas ... they have TWO consoles EACH that outsold your Console.

FYI,
Reality.

Global sales ending Dec 28, 2013 [link]
Weekly sales / Lifetime sales
PS4 465,686 / 4,131,558
PS3 366,829 / 82,295,601
XOne 290,762 / 2,933,095
X360 263,376 / 81,040,210
WiiU 220,732 / 5,249,664

Funny how you left off

3DS 756,592 / 42,298,707

which is.... dun dun dun... backwards compatible AND outsold the shit out of everything.

though I do wonder who the 15,795 people who bought a DS were... what stores even still have DS in stock?

and lets see how many 360's and PS3's are still selling next Christmas when the successors are out as long as WiiU is now. go look at the figures from a year before, and the Wii was still selling as much if not more (depending on the week) than WiiU so BC didn't cut into predecessor sales much if at all
 
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