Hardware Why make a console that is backwards compatible ?

[Wisenheimer]

I don't have a WiiU.

I may get a WiiU in the future
I would definitely not get a WiiU if it didn't support Wii games.

Trouble is, I'm far from a typical customer so my opinion doesn't really count in the grand scheme of things




Anyway I think Fox4 summed it up perfectly. If it *can* be implemented then great, but you should not design your console based around it.

But really there was no need for WiiU to go with the same architecture just to maintain backwards compatibility. They could have gone x86 and developed an emulator. Dolphin is already pretty good on x86, and Nintendo would have had all the resources available to implement some serious high-level emulation to get a decent speed on even a mid range x86 cpu. Fact is it's surely far cheaper R&D wise to evolve an existing architecture than to go with something new. And they are paying the price for that now.

I am not certain I agree. The low power x86 chips the PS4 and xb1 use probably could not run wii games well on Dolphin. Granted, Nintendo would probably be better at an emulator than the dolphin folks or use a faster CPU, but it seems a bsd way to do things.

There is nothing wrong with a Power PC CPU. Developers seemed fine with the architecture last generation.

The gpu is where most of modern game enhancements are made. Nintendo sacrificed a noticeable amount of gpu performance to get to the market early with a small, low heat, game console.

 

[cozmosauce]

Obvious, so that consoles and their games aren't disposable.

 

[Gahars]

So you think that Wii U sales have been significantly boosted because people can buy Wii games too ?

If I was Nintendo, I would not have made the Wii U backwards compatible.

I think it discourages software development. If your software company already have a Wii version of a game, why make a Wii U version ?

When did I ever say that?

BC is a clear advantage for the Wii U; it's just not the only factor at play.

As for your point, BC didn't stop development for the PS2. Poor sales kill support for systems, not large libraries.

 

[trumpet-205]

Yada yada yada; I've heard how Nintendo always has the most powerful systems.

N64 and GameCube are the only system that are the most powerful at its time. Both barely profitable by the time they were discontinued, for similar reasons.

But they get penalized for trying to prevent their games from being pirated.

Penalized how? Those who do or are interested in piracy are a fraction of are users. Publisher always welcome any form of DRM.

And, the cartridges/mini discs were hacked.

Anything can be hacked.

If you ask me, I'm sure the developers bear a grudge against Nintendo and are unwilling to forgive them for their past mistakes.

Explain this grudge thing to me. I'm not aware of any developer actually having vendetta against Nintendo. Sega? Sure back when Sega was making console for switching system rapidly, but not Nintendo.

Developers and publishers are not charity organization. They develop and publish games to make profits. What happens when they see a system that were hard to develop? Costly to distribute? Small user base to reach out? Of course they are going to be less inclined to work on that system. This isn't personal vendetta, but a logical business decision.

And then the fans complain because the developers won't release any games for Nintendo. So, people that bought a Wii played GameCube titles, so people who buy a WiiU can play GameCube and Wii titles. And the shop channel is still in place for those classic games.

So you are saying that fans shouldn't voice their criticism when a system isn't getting games?

Well but aren't game developers tweaking their existing architecture instead of creating something new? The Wii U is just as powerful as the PS3 and 360, so why not use that engine for designing games?

Here is the thing, Wii U uses equivalent but not the same hardware capabilities. Wii U doesn't use DirectX or OpenGL. Instead Nintendo developed its own in house API that replicates features found in DirectX and/or OpenGL. Problem? Developers have known and experiences DirectX and OpenGL for ages, but not proprietary API used by one system. Even though it is capable of doing what DirectX and OpenGL can do, it is a completely different language. They can't just use some engine made with DirectX and OpenGL in mind and tweak it. It needs to be re-done. And that mean extra time and money needs to be spent.

But really there was no need for WiiU to go with the same architecture just to maintain backwards compatibility. They could have gone x86 and developed an emulator. Dolphin is already pretty good on x86, and Nintendo would have had all the resources available to implement some serious high-level emulation to get a decent speed on even a mid range x86 cpu. Fact is it's surely far cheaper R&D wise to evolve an existing architecture than to go with something new. And they are paying the price for that now.

Dolphin needs relatively strong x86 CPU to pull off playable experience; and that's only going to drive CPU cost up if Nintendo intends to do software emulation. Given Nintendo has always been aiming at parents who buy games for their kid, higher price tag isn't helping.

Sony and Microsoft both paid $100+ for each x86 APU.

 

[XDel]

I love it when people say that the Wii had no great games, or even the Wii U for that matter. Between Rygar, Pandora's Tower, and the Metroid Prime Trilogy, to just touch the tip of the ice burg, I was addicted to my Wii like none other! Still play it and my DSiXL more than my PC, classic XBOX, Dreamcast, etc. Though some of that is for retro console gaming too, I.E. Turbo GFX CD and Sega CD titles. Can't get enough of those RPG's lately!


In regards to backwards compatibility... well that only makes sense. In fact I'm kind of sad that they dumped Gamecube support too. What would it cost to have kept those game ports intact on the Wii U? Pennies?
Anyhow I don't really understand why every game console is a whole new invention of it's own rather than being based upon older tech like what Nintendo is doing, Amiga did (though not just a gaming machine), and PC's still do till this day. On that note, I think Steam has the right idea. Make PC's comfortable for the living room, invent something better than those God forsaken analog sticks, and give us something we can slap a new video card in when needed... I can't imagine we'd need more than 16Gb of RAM and a Quad Core 3.x Ghz CPU any time soon. Heck the laptop I'm typing this one still pulls of some amazing games and it's time on earth is expired according to habits of the modern mindless consumer.

 

[Wisenheimer]

To be fair, only MS uses Direct X for their consoles and only the SteamBox will use ooen GL. Sony and Nintendo use a proprietary API based heavily on OpenGL.

N64 and GameCube are the only system that are the most powerful at its time. Both barely profitable by the time they were discontinued, for similar reasons.


Penalized how? Those who do or are interested in piracy are a fraction of are users. Publisher always welcome any form of DRM.


Anything can be hacked.


Explain this grudge thing to me. I'm not aware of any developer actually having vendetta against Nintendo. Sega? Sure back when Sega was making console for switching system rapidly, but not Nintendo.

Developers and publishers are not charity organization. They develop and publish games to make profits. What happens when they see a system that were hard to develop? Costly to distribute? Small user base to reach out? Of course they are going to be less inclined to work on that system. This isn't personal vendetta, but a logical business decision.


So you are saying that fans shouldn't voice their criticism when a system isn't getting games?


Here is the thing, Wii U uses equivalent but not same hardware capabilities. Wii U doesn't use DirectX or OpenGL. Instead Nintendo developed its own in house API that replicates features found in DirectX and/or OpenGL. Problem? Developers have known and experiences DirectX and OpenGL for ages, but not proprietary API used by one system. Even though it was capable of doing what DirectX and OpenGL can do, it is a completely different language. They can't just use some engine made with DirectX and OpenGL in mind and tweak it. It needs to be re-done. And that mean extra time and money needs to be spent.


Dolphin needs relatively strong x86 CPU to pull off playable experience; and that's only going to drive CPU cost up if Nintendo intends to do software emulation. Given Nintendo has always been aiming at parents who buy games for their kid, higher price tag isn't helping.

Sony and Microsoft both paid $100+ for each x86 APU.

 

[calmwaters]

N64 and GameCube are the only system that are the most powerful at its time. Both barely profitable by the time they were discontinued, for similar reasons.

So then it's not about the power; it's about the storage method.

Penalized how? Those who do or are interested in piracy are a fraction of are users. Publisher always welcome any form of DRM.

Pirates might be a small community of people, but apparently Nintendo thought they were a threat to their business.

Anything can be hacked.

Yeah, no shit.

Explain this grudge thing to me. I'm not aware of any developer actually having vendetta against Nintendo. Sega? Sure back when Sega was making console for switching system rapidly, but not Nintendo.

Developers and publishers are not charity organization. They develop and publish games to make profits. What happens when they see a system that were hard to develop? Costly to distribute? Small user base to reach out? Of course they are going to be less inclined to work on that system. This isn't personal vendetta, but a logical business decision.

The way I see it: developers got pissed at Nintendo for not switching to DVDs (which there's nothing wrong with anyway; DVDs were the new standard storage method). And now that Nintendo has switched to DVDs, they're pissed because the system's power isn't up to par with their game requirements. A trend I noticed with this generation and the last one is that Sony and Microsoft released machines that were more powerful than the Wii, thereby creating the excuse that they would have to drop a lot of the graphics and it would look ugly on the Wii. And it just wasn't worth their time to write a better story and have better controls to make up for its uglier appearance. (I don't think Ninty fans are as picky about what they'll play so long as it's good; again just me.)

So you are saying that fans shouldn't voice their criticism when a system isn't getting games?

No.

Dolphin needs relatively strong x86 CPU to pull off playable experience; and that's only going to drive CPU cost up if Nintendo intends to do software emulation. Given Nintendo has always been aiming at parents who buy games for their kid, higher price tag isn't helping.

Nintendo released the GameCube and the N64 to appeal to parents who buy games for their kids? Makes sense. But then the ESRB ratings were taken seriously back in those days...

Sony and Microsoft both paid $100+ for each x86 APU.

Okay; as companies, they can do that.

 

[grossaffe]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the Power PC architecture. x86 certainly isn't a god amongst architectures; it's built on the long-outdated concept of CISC processors retro-fitted to act as RISC processors. There's no reason for Nintendo not to stick with the PPC; you may argue they should have gone with a more powerful CPU, but that's another argument. Once they decided to stick with PPC, backwards compatibility became rather elementary.

Sony, on the other hand, kinda painted themselves into a corner with the convoluted Cell processor, and unless they wanted to make another weird CPU to simulate it's functionality but more powerful, backwards compatibility was already out the window.

 

[RodrigoDavy]

Which is totally why they invested a great deal of money and time on refining PPC7xx by adding an ARM core for background OS functionality and SIMD which is poor/non-existant on standard PPC7xx, miniaturizing the chip and putting three cores in it. No, this is no coincidence. The research on this CPU line is on-going, they knew exactly what they were doing. They keep re-using the same IBM setup since the Gamecube days, this was a planned and deliberate design choice. You can't really expect anyone to believe that re-using the same architecture and a backwards-compatible GPU family was entirely accidental.
No. Revisions of hardware are normal - companies release them on a regular basis.

I really don't think they decided to use this architecture based on getting BC with the Wii for a rather simple reason... If they wanted, they could just make a whole new architecture and include the Wii hardware, it wouldn't add as much cost as in other consoles because the Wii was outdate and inexpensive hardware at launch.

They used this architecture because Nintendo's and many third party developers are already used to coding for this architecture, which helps decrease time/costs in training developers. Sony's and Microsoft's decision in using PC like hardware also has to do with this architecture being familiar with developers, decreasing the learning curve.

Also, I don't buy the "they invested a great deal of money and time on refining PPC7xx by adding an ARM core for background OS functionality and SIMD which is poor/non-existant on standard PPC7xx, miniaturizing the chip and putting three cores in it" for me this is pure conjecture.

 

[Adeka]

I would sell my 360 and buy a xbox one if it was backwards compatible. I'l just stick to my ps4 and wiiU for now though

 

[RodrigoDavy]

I sold my former DSi to buy a 3DS (wouldn't have bought a 3DS if it didn't have BC).

 

[Senbei Norimaki]

The main reason I bought a Wii U is that it is backwards compatible.

 

[Snailface]

"Why make a console that is backwards incompatible?"

That's really the thread that should have been made.

 

[Celice]

The main reason I bought a Wii U is that it is backwards compatible.

Most people bought a Wii to play Wii games tho .-.

 

[RodrigoDavy]

Reason BC is desirable for many:

- People who don't own a Wii but want one can buy the more powerful Wii U. And you can even use off-tv play in Wii games.
- People who already own a Wii can sell their Wii to help pay for the Wii U.
- People who already own a Wii and don't intend to sell it but likes the convenience of playing both Wii/Wii U games on a single console.

 

[Bladexdsl]

why make a pencil that also has an eraser? there's your answer

 

[osirisjem]

In terms of net benefit, are Sony and Microsoft making huge mistakes not having BC ?

 

[Wisenheimer]

In terms of net benefit, are Sony and Microsoft making huge mistakes not having BC ?

No, not really. Until the PS2 and Gameboy Color, backwards compatibility was pretty much unheard of. The idea now is to force consumers to buy an online copy of old games to play tjem, even if they already own them.

It sure makes you appreciate Nintendo though, since they are the only company to retain at least some backwards compatibility in all their handheld and disk consoles.

 

[duffmmann]

BC is just nice. If your system is capable of it, why not allow for it? Plus, its great for those that skipped the previous generation's system. There were plenty of PS1 games I loved but I never personally had a PS1, when I got a PS2, I filled out my game selections by not only choosing my favorite PS2 titles, but also those PS1 games I never got to personally own.

The sole reason I didn't go run out and get a PS4 is its lack of BC. See I never had a PS3 and my 360 only recently died (2nd model of the system I've owned to die... blah). I wanted to run and grab a PS4, but I learned I couldn't even play PS3 games and right now, my favorite game is GTA5. A PS4 can't play that amazing title, nor can an XBone. So I find myself in a place where I don't want to buy either the new gen (As the games just aren't there yet) or the past gen (as its coming to an end, and I don't know what games of this gen will eventually find theirseleves on some sort of download service for the new gen). I'm stuck in a limbo, and consequently just play my roommates PS3 for the time being.

 

[osirisjem]

No, not really. Until the PS2 and Gameboy Color, backwards compatibility was pretty much unheard of. The idea now is to force consumers to buy an online copy of old games to play them, even if they already own them.

Hmmm. I don't need the WiiU to be backwards compatible, I already have a Wii.

It sure makes you appreciate Nintendo though, since they are the only company to retain at least some backwards compatibility in all their handheld and disk consoles.

It makes you appreciate Nintendo on this one thing.
Frankly I am surprised Nintendo has failed to make a console consumers want to buy.
They had a captive audience that loved their Wiis. It seemed a repeat success was going to be easy ... and they dropped the ball huge.
They gambled on the Game Pad ... and it's been a failure. Whoever decided the GamePad was a good idea should politely be shown the door.

The sole reason I didn't go run out and get a PS4 is its lack of BC. See I never had a PS3 and my 360 only recently died (2nd model of the system I've owned to die... blah). I wanted to run and grab a PS4, but I learned I couldn't even play PS3 games and right now, my favorite game is GTA5.

Why not buy a used PS3 ?