Religion. The Last Debate

[Uncle FEFL]

Yeah, but God allowed it. If I claim to be omnibenevolent, allow evil to be done, and still claim to be omnibenevolent, I am just a liar.

God did create evil. Evil is in God's "perfect" image.

 

[ether2802]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

GOD already fought against evil, he's not going to prevent evil cause now is our turn to fight it, are you always gonna be dependent of your parents, there's some day in life where you are supoused to live by your own, and create your own life, and this happens in the entire animal kingdom...!!

 

[injected11]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

GOD already fought against evil, he's not going to prevent evil cause now is our turn to fight it, are you always gonna be dependent of your parents, there's some day in life where you are supoused to live by your own, and create your own life, and this happens in the entire animal kingdom...!!

But you're claiming dependance on a god for guidance and deliverance to a higher place, aren't you?

 

[TrolleyDave]

But again, right and wrong or evil and good is subjective. What's good in one religion is bad in another, what's good in secular society is bad in religion, what's good in one culture is bad in another and so on. If you left a child with no education on the subject in the forest and came back when he was older (if he sruvived obviously lol) would he know right from wrong and good from evil, or would he just know survival instinct?

Which is why there are books to distinct from right or wrong.

But what about the people who'd figured it out a long time before those books? Also, who's to say that the writer of those particular books isn't the one who got it wrong? It could be Taoism, Buddism, Sikhism, Native American religion or even one of the many now extinct polytheist religions. They promoted similar ideals, just worshipped different entities. How can you say that one prophets/philosophers book is the truth when there are so many out there claiming to be said truth.

 

[Magmorph]

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

GOD already fought against evil, he's not going to prevent evil cause now is our turn to fight it, are you always gonna be dependent of your parents, there's some day in life where you are supoused to live by your own, and create your own life, and this happens in the entire animal kingdom...!!

How could God possibly lose a fight or even be involved in one? God wouldn't have to fight anything he could change anything with no effort.

 

[BobTheJoeBob]

Yeah, but God allowed it. If I claim to be omnibenevolent, allow evil to be done, and still claim to be omnibenevolent, I am just a liar.

God did create evil. Evil is in God's "perfect" image.
No, god supposedly created us in his image, also giving us free will, now does that mean that we're going to use the free will correctly? Not necessarily. Humans were purposely made with flaws, if god didn't create us with flaws, it would be the same as giving us no free will, thus making us angels, not humans.

But you're claiming dependance on a god for guidance and deliverance to a higher place, aren't you?
Read his post again, You don't ALWAYS rely on your parents, but when you are small, you need guidance. After that, you live deciding what you think is wrong and right. (which you should be able to distinct by that time)

QUOTE(TrolleyDave @ Sep 12 2010, 06:33 PM)

But again, right and wrong or evil and good is subjective. What's good in one religion is bad in another, what's good in secular society is bad in religion, what's good in one culture is bad in another and so on. If you left a child with no education on the subject in the forest and came back when he was older (if he sruvived obviously lol) would he know right from wrong and good from evil, or would he just know survival instinct?

Which is why there are books to distinct from right or wrong.

But what about the people who'd figured it out a long time before those books? Also, who's to say that the writer of those particular books isn't the one who got it wrong? It could be Taoism, Buddism, Sikhism, Native American religion or even one of the many now extinct polytheist religions. They promoted similar ideals, just worshipped different entities. How can you say that one prophets/philosophers book is the truth when there are so many out there claiming to be said truth.

I don't really understand what your trying to say in the beginning of your post so I'm not replying to that part. But what you believe in depends alot on what sort of environment you live in, but as most religions bring out the most basic rules. (e.g. no murder, lying etc)n By the time your 8-15 you should be able to distinct between good and bad at least on the most basic grounds, then you learn about other religions and if your interested in a particular religion you continue to learn more about it and either convert or stay as you are.

 

[Uncle FEFL]

No, god supposedly created us in his image, also giving us free will, now does that mean that we're going to use the free will correctly? Not necessarily. Humans were purposely made with flaws, if god didn't create us with flaws, it would be the same as giving us no free will, thus making us angels, not humans.

Anything God makes is perfect, for God is perfect. God claims to be omnibenevolent, yet allows evil, making God a liar.

If we are flawed then God's image is flawed, because we should be perfect if we came from a perfect being. If people are not good, and we are in God's image, the evil is included in God's image.

That doesn't make any sense. What is the difference between an angel and a human? Both are supposedly flawed, both are God's slaves, and both have free will (you said it yourself with Lucifer). The only difference is that yet again we aren't able to see the "divine."

 

[BobTheJoeBob]

No, god supposedly created us in his image, also giving us free will, now does that mean that we're going to use the free will correctly? Not necessarily. Humans were purposely made with flaws, if god didn't create us with flaws, it would be the same as giving us no free will, thus making us angels, not humans.

Anything God makes is perfect, for God is perfect. God claims to be omnibenevolent, yet allows evil, making God a liar.

If we are flawed then God's image is flawed, because we should be perfect if we came from a perfect being. If people are not good, and we are in God's image, the evil is included in God's image.

That doesn't make any sense. What is the difference between an angel and a human? Both are supposedly flawed, both are God's slaves, and both have free will (you said it yourself with Lucifer). The only difference is that yet again we aren't able to see the "divine."

I said nothing about lucifier, and frankly I'm not sure what that is. An angel can do no bad and was specifically made to do god's bidding. Also, considering god can create an perfect being, as he is perfect, he can also create an imperfect being. Us, we are imperfect beings. God can do anything, that includes creating an imperfect being. As said before, evil is the absence of good, like cold is the absence of heat.

 

[Thoob]

Don't you just love it when the religious people argue about angels?

 

[Warrior522]

No, god supposedly created us in his image, also giving us free will, now does that mean that we're going to use the free will correctly? Not necessarily. Humans were purposely made with flaws, if god didn't create us with flaws, it would be the same as giving us no free will, thus making us angels, not humans.

If we are flawed then God's image is flawed, because we should be perfect if we came from a perfect being. If people are not good, and we are in God's image, the evil is included in God's image.

Have you ever read Genesis? It clearly states that our flaws are a result of our rebellion against God.

 

[TrolleyDave]

I don't really understand what your trying to say in the beginning of your post so I'm not replying to that part. But what you believe in depends alot on what sort of environment you live in, but as most religions bring out the most basic rules. (e.g. no murder, lying etc)n By the time your 8-15 you should be able to distinct between good and bad at least on the most basic grounds, then you learn about other religions and if your interested in a particular religion you continue to learn more about it and either convert or stay as you are.

What I mean is how did people distinguish right from wrong before the books and before the prophets/gurus of whichever religion you choose? Are you saying that there wasn't a single person who could tell right or wrong before whichever prophet/guru you follow decided to start teaching his philosophies?

Also, what was right back when the books were written might not be right now. The Qu'ran advocates slavery (spoils of war), as does the Bible to some extent, yet we know now that slavery is unjust. So are the holy books really that good at guiding our morals? As I said earlier, good and bad is subjective according to culture and time. If religion advocates slavery and man has come to the realisation that it's wrong does that mean that man is smarter and more compassionate than a divine being or a prophet? Or does it simply prove that a human wrote the holy books, using religious fears to encourage his vision of a perfect society?

edit : Sorry, forgot one thing! As to changing religions, doesn't each religion preach that it is the only way to redemption and a happy afterlife? Islam and Buddhism being slightly different obviously as Islam teaches that as long as you believe in the one true God (Judaic) then you will be saved on the day of judgement and Buddhism is just more complicated than the usual Heaven/Hell scenario.

 

[Uncle FEFL]

I said nothing about lucifier, and frankly I'm not sure what that is. An angel can do no bad and was specifically made to do god's bidding. Also, considering god can create an perfect being, as he is perfect, he can also create an imperfect being. Us, we are imperfect beings. God can do anything, that includes creating an imperfect being. As said before, evil is the absence of good, like cold is the absence of heat.Lucifer is God's "fallen angel," the devil.

Weren't we as well? I'm pretty sure that's exactly what we're here for, otherwise we wouldn't even have religion. Main difference between humans and "angels": angels don't have a choice to believe in God because they have proof. However, they can rebel. It's happened before, assuming the holy books aren't story books.

Wrong. Something that is imperfect cannot come from a perfect being. It is illogical.

EDIT: Can God build a wall it cannot break down?


QUOTE(Warrior522 @ Sep 12 2010, 02:22 PM) Have you ever read Genesis? It clearly states that our flaws are a result of our rebellion against God.

It's incredibly easy to argue that rebellion doesn't bring imperfection to a perfect entity. Whatever that entity does is perfect. If this applies to God, then it applies to us as well. God DID command the genocide of the Canaanites, you know. Numbers, 33:50-52

 

[omatic]

There IS a god, and it's Kojima. Miller said so.

Video proof: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThutNUSMDfY

===

Seriously though, I don't think we have enough knowledge compiled to know how the universe truly works, and it'd be a little arrogant to try and claim that as a primitive life-form whose best-case natural lifespan is almost nothing relative to the age of the universe, let alone our own star, that we know how it all works.

 

[OSW]

if GOD doesn't exist, how do you explain LIFE exist...??

So how does "GOD" exist?

If you're prepared to take a leap of faith saying that God "just exists", you could easily take the same leap in saying that the Universe/Life "just exists".

Many things are unexplainable or odd in our world. Sometimes you just have to accept them because there is no explanation. You don't have to pull some crap out about "God".

p.s. I REALLY hate it when religious people don't at least try to think for themselves, but instead simply quote passages from the bible.

 

[Shinigami357]

I said nothing about lucifier, and frankly I'm not sure what that is. An angel can do no bad and was specifically made to do god's bidding. Also, considering god can create an perfect being, as he is perfect, he can also create an imperfect being. Us, we are imperfect beings. God can do anything, that includes creating an imperfect being. As said before, evil is the absence of good, like cold is the absence of heat.

like, srsly??? if so then what is good? surely not everything that God created, since looking at humans, there are some bad ones among the mix. you can't even say that good is the absence of good, coz then we'd be in a cycle of frankly stupid argumentation. and in any cae, what is the whole point of this evil-good thing? that evil exists does not prove either existence or absence of God.

 

[em2241992]

I honestly do not know if God exists, but if God did exist, then why are we here?(nihilism) What is our purpose for being here, simple amusement? If God created us he must have created us for a purpose. So far science explains everything about our existence, such as the environment is stable to suit us, we have all the elements to make human DNA which is the base of our existence.
As we live our life, we grow and die, and for what? At least in the scientific explanation, we came into existence by chance and conditions providing. Because of this we technically have no true purpose, and the only reason we know we exist is we developed a conscience, we recognize that we exist. If we didn't then none of this would even be questioned or explored. The universe is full observed because of the way we perceive it(anthropic principle). It is also possible that only I exist and everything else is nothing more than my mind at work(solipsism).
Also I read in earlier posts about God preventing evil. What is evil, it is a concept based on certain morals laid down by humans and religious concepts. But who wrote that religious context, prove it was God. Humans deem things evil, but it is all based on morals. All things good and evil are definition based on human definition and characteristics.
With all of these possibilities and many more which I don't know, how can we possibly prove if a deity or deities exist?

 

[Blood Fetish]

With all of these possibilities and many more which I don't know, how can we possibly prove if a deity or deities exist?

It is the burden of those proclaiming there is a "god" to provide proof, not the other way around. If none can be provided then it is as valid as saying I am [your diety] and you being forced to accept that.

 

[Zetta_x]

Before I continue, I wanted to post that we are assuming there is a god for if there is not a god, then my posts below would not be relevant.

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My problem with religion is that it attempt to define good and bad. While we should have a strong moral foundation on what is good and bad, it feels corrupt when something else is making the decisions.

Another reason why I don't follow religion is because it can really alter someone at the personality level. I have seen some people who feel above others because they are hardcore religion vs an Atheist. Like I always say, it takes more faith to not believe in religion especially when you have family members who do.

Another assumption that must be taken with any ideology that follows a god is that god must be real, for if it is not, what is the foundation of the principles? While I have no problem in believing a god, but to abuse it's image to make people follow a certain religion is ridicule.

Some other small things, like what is the origin of every religion? I feel in order to study a religion, I must have to either: A) Read a book or some type of material or B) get lectured by someone who supposedly knows the religion. If religion is truly associated with an omnipotent transcendental being, why is it we have to study by ways that do not originate back to the start of the religion (books, communications, English...)

What is the probability of a religion today being as accurate as the same religion thousands of years ago? If religion does indeed associate with an almighty perfect transcendental being, then consistencies about a religion shouldn't happen because if they do, we form new breeds of new religions

Is religion a form of control? Self explanatory. Things like Hell and Heaven have extremely graphic images.

Why do most religions that idolize a god always make the god almost human like as gender and body as if it was walking on earth. Study material of religious activities normally have a humanistic point of view as if it were derived from a human. That being said, all religious activities take place on Earth. This would be consistent with a perspective that thought Earth was the only place in existence which is coincidentally around the same time as most religions originated. We must have the Earth versions of every religion.

If we found intelligent lifeforms outside Earth, what is the probability that they believe in the same religions as we do? For if they don't, then who is right if we assumed one of us were right.

How can a place that is perfect exist? Perfection to some extent is always in relation to some variable. These variables can be defined by opinions. Opinions can differ from person to person. So perfection in the form of a transcendental being or place would not have an intersection to a specific object.

It takes a lot of money and willpower to study religion. Unfortunately in order to disprove of a religion you need to know some things about it unless you are ignorant. With that being said, religion in general actively consumes resources regardless if you believe it or not. The best approach to avoid these resources would be to ignore religion in general and not approve it or disapprove it.

I have so much more I can say especially about specific religions, but this is why I disapprove religion in general.

 

[VmprHntrD]

Can't say there is or isn't. I'm not arrogant or mind numbingly blind enough to think solidly there is or isn't as there's no proof solidly either way.

 

[lolzed]

On:God created evil(sin),meaning He is evil,that is wrong.
God created angels,and man,but with free will.He wanted us to love Him with our choice.
God placed the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil,to test Adam.He only had one restriction in the Garden after all,to not eat it.If he ate it,it means he did the original sin.He could choose not to eat it,with all the other goodies in the Garden,but he still chose to eat it.
Did God allow evil?The answer is "He didn't allow it NOT to exist",that's free will.

God created us in His own image...
Indeed He did,physically.He also created us in a Tri format too~
God:Father,Son,HolySpirit
Man:Body,Soul,Spirit
He also made us with some of His attributes.A common arguement if God created us perfectly,is why aren't we omnipotent,present,and -scient.

Any more questions?I'll try to answer them