Is all masculinity toxic?

[Minox]

No. End of topic.

 

[Deleted-379826]

Natural endowment my dude. Not saying you can't learn skills but genders naturally excel at certain things. Masculinity is the responsibility of providing for others and serving them greater than yourself. Being a not woman, I can't tell you the responsibility of femininity but I'm sure there is one.

Being a male, I can totally tell you that I am not sensing these masculine exclusive skills that should have been bestowed upon me from conception.

 

[VinsCool]

In my opinion it's only toxic when a set of stereotypical skill/behaviour is expected from a man and forced upon them otherwise they are seen as "effeminate" or "gay"
You don't have to be a mass of muscles with no emotion to be a man.

 

[The Catboy]

It's incredibly obvious too if you look at TV and movies. Men "coping" by drinking is made out to be a joke.

I just want to focus on this because it's important, it's made out to be a joke. Alcoholism as a means of coping is always shown as the butt of a joke and treated as if it's not something to be taken seriously and that does reflect back into the real world. It's often seen as a form of weakness trying to get help with alcoholism and often people don't address their drinking problems because they are afraid it won't be taken seriously and afraid of losing the escape that drinking gives them. This is a problem that goes along with those who have issues like depression that they aren't treating because doing so is often considered another sign of weakness. This is all part of the bigger problem that is often referred to as "toxic masculinity." By making some like alcoholism or drinking to cope a joke, treating depression as a weakness, and avoiding the problems by making them a joke.

 

[SecureBoot]

It's incredibly obvious too if you look at TV and movies. Men "coping" by drinking is made out to be a joke. By the same token, if you want to dispel any feelings of self-induced homophobia because of an awkward situation, you start talking about sports. Funny thing that I neither drink nor have an interest in sports.



It's funny because the argument about transgenderism often degenerates in whether a person has a penis or a vagina. Yet, I can really figure out how having either one makes one "excel" in any of those things called masculinity or femininity unless one is suggesting one actually uses a penis or vagina to carry out those tasks. If anything, the notion of "natural endowment(s)" suggests that people being male or female is separate to said penis/vagina and further because said "natural endowment(s)" vary that there's a spectrum of gender between male and female.

Personally, though, I don't even know what it means to "feel" male or female. So, I'm probably not the best person to try to make that sort of distinction.



Funny as one could argue that it is the duty of all people to provide/serve other people as part of the great plan for humanity. Or at least, that's what I tended to understand the Christian message to be. Nothing about what Jesus said was really gender specific*, and most of history is full of males and females alike doing what you suggest. It's odd for a male to claim this to be a property of masculinity as if to own it, both its accolades and its supposed duty.

* Paul said a lot of things as did the Old Testament. I'm not a Biblical scholar, though, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

And this is where personal beliefs and yes *gasps* religion come into play. I won't try to force this stuff because that's counter intuitive but I'll say this,
A) yes, being a man or woman has more to do with having a penis or vagina. It has to do with how your soul is hardwired from creation
B) yes, all people should look out for the little guy. The greatest commandment is love the neighbor as thyself, however. In a family setting, the man has been placed in a position to provide. Ex. Adam, Abraham, Noah, Israel

Like I said. I can't prove these things because it's strictly spiritual but I'll believe it to my grave.

*Footnote from someone who is a bit of Bible scholar. Jesus' teachings weren't generally gender specific (though there were some. Off the top of my head I can think of some from the sermon on the mount). However, according to the Christian faith, since the whole Bible is "God breathed", it's all true, Even the things written by Paul or Moses, because God divinely inspired it. This doesn't really add to the conversation but thought it was interesting enough to note

 

[kuwanger]

And this is where personal beliefs and yes *gasps* religion come into play. I won't try to force this stuff because that's counter intuitive but I'll say this,

I would agree it's due to religion, but here's the crux of the problem with all religion: you're taught what to believe by those before you who were taught by those before them. Just as our words have change and whole languages have evolved in the time span of the birth of Christ, it's hard to believe that the dogmatic beliefs have stayed the same. In fact, there's been multiple Councils created to resolve evolving religious disputes. It's a major part of where Protestantism came from.

So, personal beliefs seem to be a major consideration, and that always leaves me skeptical when large groups of people seem to be possibly harming others because of said personal beliefs.

The greatest commandment is love the neighbor as thyself, however. In a family setting, the man has been placed in a position to provide. Ex. Adam, Abraham, Noah, Israel

Of note, all Old Testament figures. It's one of the more curious aspects of what Christ said: "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." It's hard to understand how that doesn't inherently lead to contradictions when "love thy neighbor as thyself" is very much not an Old Testament commandment.

Even the things written by Paul or Moses, because God divinely inspired it. This doesn't really add to the conversation but thought it was interesting enough to note

But why do we include the writings of Paul and not Thomas? Why do we not have Book Q? You see, as I started out, we're trusting that the right collections of books were gathered to make the Bible. Even optimally, that leaves a lot of room for abuse or for personal belief to color the history of Christianity. Having said that, it's definitely off-topic and I don't personally think Christianity is redeemable precisely because it's rooted in the Old Testament.

You're of course welcome to your own beliefs. It's very unclear, however, how you can actually fit the agricultural at home work of the Bible that could involve the whole family into the 40 hours/week away from home work schedule that supposedly should be reduced to one man per household. Of course, in many households in the US it's actually multiple members precisely because one man frequently cannot earn enough to support a household. That is not a failing but an economic reality which paradoxically matches the past much better than a short period where one person could make enough for many.

 

[fixingmytoys]

And in the end women sorry I should say the angry women were angry because they were born woman due to nature which at this stage we don’t have full control over because it was not like us men went in the worm oh we make a conscious decision to become male so therefore that’s what we will do, no it’s what you came out it is what you are you’re not at the stage maybe Asia China where we can decide on what sex the baby shopping but at this stage of the game , now back to what I was saying it’s the woman the angry woman( not all woman) who aren’t happy or have not found themselves in their place in this world now that place in this world anyone’s place in this world is determined by how the world is it that particular time . Your place in this world is not the same is if you are born 100 years ago the worlds different technology people interacted culturally exposure to different cultures and lifestyles in 100 years time it will be different again so the your place in the world today won’t be the same as your place in the word in a 100 years. Times change views change cultures change people change but we have to be careful that we don’t go down the mob mentality which unfortunately is what’s happening now. Parts of the society are upset about how they been treated granted not always been good but to change everything in your favour just makes you as bad as what was before , this whole #metoo movement is getting out of Control yes the old sexist arsehole brigade has to go but at the same time male and female are different just like water is wet on the ground is dry what day is clear and night is dark it’s different there a difference for a reason you cannot make it today mono cannot take away something that is in nature you’ll get to a stage we all men will be belittled changed by law pressure controlled behaviour from a young age are you teaching in schools basically brainwashing and then one day they will turn around and go what can’t you be a man be a real man you can’t have it both ways this whole let’s change every single movie TV show or IP property into having females as the main characters i.e. Doctor Who Marvel characters now I think they’re doing it with terminator one thing people don’t like having an existing story changed and shoved down the throat a agenda create new properties new stories new movies characters TV shows don’t take something that is being set in concrete and remould it just does not work look at the new Ghostbusters the female version it made no money so now they’re going back to doing a sequel of the original not the reboot and low in behold one of the female Ghostbusters has come out and say that sexist they should be doing A sequel of the new female movie how can this help anyone’s calls blah blah blah blah well thing is reality kicked in and in reality we make money .they make movies to make money so if A particular Idear doesn’t work they change back to what does work and unfortunately that’s happening with all the shows and movies that are we casting existing characters as females to appease some invisible PC group that everyone is so scared off. If you attracted to females you’re attracted to females if you are attracted to guys you are attracted guys you can’t change that so getting upset when a guy is attracted to a girl is just stupid that’s nature,changing everything and saying these toxicity and implying that it’s male toxicity because in this world this PC #MeToo World Female Toxicity does not exist because only males are the baddies .
Everyone is born into a world has to find a place in the world that is a very predefined and a set of rules that were made created Evolved before we popped out of our mothers worms yes nothing wrong with changing rules evolving rules you cannot it never works change societies rules at a flick of a switch it has to involve yes there does come a breaking point just have to be careful how you proceed onthat breaking point. #MeToo is that breaking point but unfortunately I can see it turning bad and actually really fast and really been detrimental to humans yes somethings were wrong from today’s point of view. should be noted that today point of views Has changed just like the way people are treated in the mediaeval dark Ages at that time that point if you was fine which was contained by today’s biggest church the Catholic Church which was the controlling factor of society back in those times , where correct but today it is not. it changes so it’s really difficult and dangerous to To judge and condemn a past days point of view on today’s evolving point of you you have to tread carefully and this is what is not happening and that is with a danger lies

 

[IncredulousP]

I just wanna be able to cross my legs sitting down without being judged.

 

[mikefor20]

All you whining ladies who think you have a right to fit in and be accepted are lucky you have people with true grit to protect you. Why do you think you have to fight for all these gripe of the minute bullshit causes? You are not making the world a better place by turning everyone in to you. I don't think most of you crying whiney babies deserve to fit in. Why do you think you have authority? You shouldn't be so quick to decide you are better. When the shit hits the fan you cower and run. SJWs are the worst. Think you are so tough and righteous but when it comes down to it you are all just hiding in your Hello Kitty clad room waiting for your mommy to call you for dinner. Making a ruckus online and pretending to be a real person but all you are Its a bunch of whiney thumb sucking babies. Don't cry if someone is manly. Go back to your gaming rigs and feel secure that someone out there has the balls to build a house for you to live in, farm food to make your asses fat, be a cop to get your lunch money back and be a soldier to protect your punk ass country that's full of arrogant baby ladyboy jack asses that have nerve to complain that a man or woman had the balls to make a difference and build a safe world for all you brony furry trans children. You should thank god someone is out there. Hard as nails. So you don't have to. Thank god for real men and all you who complain should be ashamed that you can't even admit you owe everything you have to someone with bigger balls than you. I hope the next generation realizes how lame everything is becoming and goes back to being real people instead of cowards that complain that the world isn't padded enough for their candy asses
Man up. Grow a pair and shut up

 

[VinsCool]

All you whining ladies who think you have a right to fit in and be accepted are lucky you have people with true grit to protect you. Why do you think you have to fight for all these gripe of the minute bullshit causes? You are not making the world a better place by turning everyone in to you. I don't think most of you crying whiney babies deserve to fit in. Why do you think you have authority? You shouldn't be so quick to decide you are better. When the shit hits the fan you cower and run. SJWs are the worst. Think you are so tough and righteous but when it comes down to it you are all just hiding in your Hello Kitty clad room waiting for your mommy to call you for dinner. Making a ruckus online and pretending to be a real person but all you are Its a bunch of whiney thumb sucking babies. Don't cry if someone is manly. Go back to your gaming rigs and feel secure that someone out there has the balls to build a house for you to live in, farm food to make your asses fat, be a cop to get your lunch money back and be a soldier to protect your punk ass country that's full of arrogant baby ladyboy jack asses that have nerve to complain that a man or woman had the balls to make a difference and build a safe world for all you brony furry trans children. You should thank god someone is out there. Hard as nails. So you don't have to. Thank god for real men and all you who complain should be ashamed that you can't even admit you owe everything you have to someone with bigger balls than you. I hope the next generation realizes how lame everything is becoming and goes back to being real people instead of cowards that complain that the world isn't padded enough for their candy asses
Man up. Grow a pair and shut up

Nice bait right there buddy.
For someone supposedly 40 this is honestly sad to read.

 

[mikefor20]

It is sad. Being strong and direct and not playing games considered being toxic. Being a big baby and crying about what everybody else does is in Vogue. Very sad.

 

[VinsCool]

Being a big baby and crying about what everybody else does is in Vogue. Very sad.

The irony in this reply though.

 

[duwen]

To paraphrase how I heard someone else explain this "all burgers are burgers, not all burgers are cheese burgers".

 

[IncredulousP]

Just gonna take a moment to say regardless of your gender and whatever expectations there are of you, you matter . And that goes to all of you.

 

[Taleweaver]

Interesting topic. I'm currently reading "men on strike" from Helen Smith. It's not the first book about the topic, but thus far one of the best. I was considering writing a blog on it, but seeing this topic makes that abundant. More so: I'm glad that the general trend is positive to say the least.

It just all stems from a stupid commercial and never should be taken seriously.

No. Sorry. This unfortunately is not an option. Let's say that the roles were reversed and all those commercials warned about "toxic femininity" where treats that are considered womanly (e.g. putting on make-up) are pictured as being dangerous and degrading. You can bet that this would NOT just be brushed aside under the "should never be taken seriously" flag.

Likewise: just because you don't believe it exists doesn't mean it others won't believe it. As we speak, an entire generation of men is taught to be ashamed to act on their natural behavior is bad while an entire generation of women can get away with far reaching consequences in areas like family life and parenthood.

The greatest misinterpretation to the term "toxic masculinity" is that it applies to masculinity as a whole when that isn't the case.
Toxic masculinity refers to the cultural idea that being masculine means confirming to one standard of masculinity, which is often a cultural abusive form that suppresses male emotions, gender expression/exploration, sexuality, and basically requires men to fall into the cultural norm or be hated. This is what is referred to as "toxic masculinity" and it a problem with real effects on the mental health of mostly young men.

Hmm...please don't take it personally, but I have to disagree with you on a few important details. Let's start with a quickly googled definition that I attest to more:

Toxic masculinity refers to harmful behaviour and attitudes commonly associated with some men, such as the need to repress emotions during stressful situations, and to act in an aggressively dominant way.

Now...you say that the toxicity in masculinity is in one male trying to enforce one form of "manliness" over someone else. This definition boldly states that repressing your emotions during stressful situations is in itself toxic (me telling someone else to "man up" would no doubt also be seen as toxic*, but it's but a small part of what the definition entails). I hope this difference is clear, because if toxic masculinity would be how you'd define it, I'd mostly agree (there'd be a few details I could throw up as counterexamples, but rather minor ones). The problem I have with the term is twofold:

1) what is described basically comes down to coping mechanisms. This really isn't a bad thing. Countless feminists hammer on "the need to express your emotions", but really: when in stressful situations that require clear thought and strong decision making, emotions can form a cloud that prevents the best course of action. Labeling that as "toxic" isn't just stupid: it is potentially damaging. There was a time when stoicism was a virtue, but to some, that does no longer ring true. Wait...it's worse than that. But that's point 2:

2) the definition of both of these are subjective. When I'm having an argument with my girlfriend, she often raises her voice. Not even conscious: it's just something she does. She says things like "you're not listening" or interrupts me all the time. When she does it, it would be called "arguing passionately". But the moment I raise my voice even a little in response (I don't like being interrupted in the middle of saying something important...especially when I can already predict that if I let her, she'd later blame me for not having said it ) she goes all "whoa! you shouldn't be MAD about it!".
Now...the reason this never escalates is because we love and respect each other very dearly (okay, and we both have this "going silent" as coping mechanisms, which allows us both to oversee the situation and think on the other's perspective). But against people you don't know, this is a verbal tool women often use to get their way.


*and in many situations: rightfully so

EDIT:

It's more of an umbrella term for harmful social and cultural behaviors, but it is also a case by case due to the nature of it. The best example I can give is that men/boys "aren't allowed to cry," which a lot have accepted as being a "masculine trait," but the effects of this cultural norm may be linked to a spike in young male suicides
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jan/17/boys-cry-male-suicide-dean-windass
This is an example of toxic masculinity because the repression of emotions may be linked to young males being unable to cope and harming/killing themselves as a means of "coping."

I've just read the article. It's a good example of the intoxination of masculinity. It's not the same as the stoicism I was talking about earlier, but it's not that easy to distinguish the two. Let's see if I can clarify:

I stated before that men are more competition-minded. We don't like to lose. Or perhaps more specific: we go at greater lengths to 'win'. The crying in frustration for a failure obviously feels terrible, but the act of emotion should neither be a good nor a bad thing (I'll get to my earlier example in a minute). The article is about linking "states of emotion" to "failure"...THAT is the bad thing. I don't recognize those traits from my own youth (thank God!), but then again: I never played sports at that age either. Perhaps I'm an outsider in that I never competed to be the strongest, toughest...whatever kid there was, but it's my parents who taught me that crying was okay as long as it didn't tore me down.

I still act by that. I ran 20 km last weekend. that's well above my average (10-15 is what I "can do"), and there were certainly times that I nearly broke down. That would've been okay. Heck...even quitting would've been okay, provided the effort was a good one. A man who was taught very hard that crying was bad might not have attempted to push his boundaries at all for fear of failure.

What I don't like about the article is that it somewhat attempts to link the high suicide rates in our group almost purely on that "we do not show emotions" part. I can name (and argue) quite a few reasons why that is the case, but misplaced masculinity isn't among them. I would go with the following list...

Spoiler

Small warning: this list is pretty hefty and controversial. I will not further discuss it, apart from by PM.

Spoiler

* men have little to no say in getting or raising children, apart from what their partner agrees to
* male role models are very much in decline (heck...can you even NAME a popular character men aspire to be like nowadays?)
* males work longer and often in more hazardous situations as well, yet aren't respected for it anymore
* men's chances of winning an argument against a woman are slim to none.
* men's sexuality is constantly mocked, ridiculed and made fun of. Women are encouraged to talk openly about whatever encounter they want, whereas men are deemed as creeps or perverts
* shopping malls almost exclusively cater to women (how's that for the glass ceiling? Plenty of economic studies reveal that the glass ceiling doesn't exist, but the fact that women do around 80% of the spending is hardly ever investigated)
* married men are no longer envied but pitied

...I could probably go on. The idea is that men are finding themselves more and more useless in today's society.

 

[Deleted User]

Yesterday I withheld my opinion to avoid influencing the comments.
The thread title was originally "Is masculinity toxic?" and a staff member changed it to "Is all masculinity toxic?"

Onto my point of view. Masculinity can take many different forms. Some good and some bad. Logan Paul is the perfect example of a fucking asshole spreading his toxic masculinity wherever he goes. Other men approach sainthood. Most of us are somewhere in between.

Toxic masculinity refers to the cultural idea that being masculine means confirming to one standard of masculinity, which is often a cultural abusive form that suppresses male emotions, gender expression/exploration, sexuality, and basically requires men to fall into the cultural norm or be hated. This is what is referred to as "toxic masculinity" and it a problem with real effects on the mental health of mostly young men.

Regarding men showing their emotions, I think it's something to be done with close friends or family. TheJWittz mentions at 11:36 that he opens up with his friends and family and his wife especially. He goes too far talking about his mental health issues publicly but it does give me a good example here. When displaying emotions publicly it should be short and sweet. Gordan Ramsay nails it in the first few seconds of this video and again at 11:17. What exactly do you mean by "gender expression"?

It just all stems from a stupid commercial and never should be taken seriously.

I wasn't going to mention the Gillette ad because it's bullshit but now that it's been brought up... The ad portrays men as wolves needing to be tamed and women as sheep needing to be protected, all for the purpose of convincing you to buy some shitty shaving products. The video briefly mentions that there are some more refined gentlemen in this world but implies they are the exception rather than the norm. It completely fails to mention that there are also some women out there who are cunning bitches. Men and women can both be toxic.

I'm waiting for somebody to mention the buzzword RAPE CULTURE.

Advances in forensic science have reduced rape cases by putting rapists in jail. It still does happen and still does need to be taken seriously, but it shouldn't be exaggerated either. Countries which punish rape victims for having sex before marriage have a real rape culture.

 

[notimp]

And I'm still offended by people using the word toxic as a descriptor for anything at all - that isn't in fact 'toxic' (in the clinical sense).

All it does, and I insist on this being the case - is to flat out ruin descussions at the very start.

Toxic, for most people throwing that word around - has no other meaning than "something we dont like as a group". Its insanely stupid.

Its "aggitation" in a "box".

Its 'some people have a native language mastery of about 500 words' and toxic has become one of them.

Its the "whats best" of holding discussions that never can go anywhere - because it has 'who is with me' baked into the question, faking a veil of neutrality in asking if your point is actually correct. But what do you think? You already used the word toxic, and disqualified, even alienated all other positions or nuances.

You even did it with the only word - thats stupid enough, that you didn't have to think how to best offend all other positions out there - you used the word that offends all of them.

So how did you think the discussion would go?

You couldnt think of a word that actually described what you were looking for in a concise manner - so you asked if something was toxic again, then you got the "im with you" responses, then you got the "I'm against it" responses - then everyone shouted - then everyone went their separate ways.

Using the word toxic in the coloquial sense - is stupid as heck.

Loaded with a hell lot of emotion, and doesnt mean anything other than "who's with me against something". It doesnt descibe anything other than contempt.

Its interaction bait, with a baked in outcome.

Thank you to the few people who tried to steer the conversation in a different direction.

 

[mattytrog]

Toxic = the latest lefty buzzword. Everything is "toxic" nowadays.

Now, masculinity...

You are who you are. You should be proud of who you are...

Now, those people who use their lack of masculinity for gain (ie I`m offended as I`m "metrosexual", "non-binary", "gender-fluid") are just selfish and should be beaten up in the playground.

Same goes for the masculine "tough-guys" here... It`s ok being able to lift 200kg with dumbels... But dumbels don`t hit you back, Rocky. No matter how macho you are.

If you are effeminite, so what? Who gives a flying fuck? Yes. You might get the piss taken out of you a bit. But deal with it. And give it back. Man the fuck up.

If you are "macho", you aren`t as hard as you think you are...

But each to their own.

Macho masculine man who go round parading their six-pack like a pigeon-chested little tosser. (You know the types... Have to SAY they are a "muscleman". Probably have a beard) will fall down sooner or later. Its the quiet ones you need to watch.

Same thing goes for the overtly effeminate ones... If you go round prancing around like a fairy, don`t be surprised when someone takes the piss out of you.

It is only "toxic" if you prefer it to be so. Normal people would just say "get fucked" and carry on with their day.

It all boils down to people being happy with the skin they are in. They only have themselves to please.

 

[kumikochan]

I really don't get why people want to deny biology and what chemicals do in the brain. Testeron and so forth is a stronger hormone. Denying human biology doesn't make you a better person or a better human, it makes you ignorant. Not talking about transgenders or anything since they do take dht and testeron blockers and increase their female hormones wich causes the brain to react differently to situations and so forth but i mean that a lpt of people do deny what male hormones do and how it does make you act

 

[Nova6677]

There's sort of a problem where people confuse being the "Alpha Male" with being properly masculine, which is what leads to toxic masculinity in my opinion.