Is all masculinity toxic?

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The Catboy

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That is more concise than I have heard before, and possibly something I can begin to work with. That said it appears to be a phrase invented to cover different fields with things that already have names, or possibly fall under different things that would want to be treated in a different manner -- I would approach someone that does not care for high impact team sports very differently to someone being subjected to conform away the gay, or indeed any suspicion thereof. I would probably go further and treat it as a different unpleasant scenario, one almost unrelated.
It is a term that is made to cover a wide verity of harmful behavior being masked as "masculinity." Basically ideas like, considering homosexuality to "emasculating," that men who express their openly express their emotions to be less "manly," and harmful teachings of what it should be considered "masculine." So the main issue of toxic masculinity is more so the idea men being forced into a small box of acceptable behaviors and attempting to fit outside of that box is met with social backlash.
 

Sonic Angel Knight

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First please point to where girls are ridiculed for wanting to play games? It is not a generally accepted thing.
Well first I have to stress enough that this was a earlier time, when I was younger (and people was less open to certain things unlike today) most girls did not play games. I don't know if it cause they didn't see interest in them, but could also speculate that is because maybe they didn't find them intended for them. When games that started features story or relevant characters, they didn't feature female ones, and if they did, they usually was "Damsel in distress" rather than playable protagonist. While today there is plenty of games where they do have female characters depicted in positive influence to the player base regardless of the role in the game's story.

In the past, if you was a young elementary school student, you liked video games, playing with robot action figures and being dirty if you was a guy. Or style, playing with dolls, and staying clean and smell nice if you was a girl. It was very segregated between the two genders and if one of them showed interest in the things the other was mostly dominating, it made for some awkward times. But my point was the difference between today and the past, not trying to offend anyone here but that's how it was for some people. I personally didn't think much about it cause it seem exaggerated.

As for "man up" that is an interesting one. I would not have considered it much of anything. Most times I hear it then it is short hand for "are you bleeding, get back on the horse and get it done" or "it can be done, go do it". Generally it is not even on my list of phrases people take exception to.

Usually if people found a guy being too sensitive to others opinions or having a personality that is not considered strong, courageous, persistent, well
"man up" is a common thing to say kinda like how people who managed to do something in a video game you haven't yet. Most likely cause you lack the skill or ability to do it, they push the fact that they managed to do it in your face and tell you to "get good" which I figure it's possible to use "man up" in the same context. I just think people say it to mean behave something more like how a woman who likes guys expects them to be. But that is just me, perhaps a misunderstanding. :ninja:
 

The Catboy

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you'll thank them later.
This right here is another example of toxic masculinity, encouraging abusive behavior. Instead of encouraging someone to be open and express themselves, you decided to reward their parent's abusive actions that had made that individual feel so repressed that they don't feel safe enough to express themselves around their own parents. This also comes with the expectations that the same person will end up being as repressive of others their parents were.
 

kuwanger

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First please point to where girls are ridiculed for wanting to play games? It is not a generally accepted thing.

Like most things, it's changed over times. So, "play games" is okay so long as they're "girl games". If they're competitive games, gory games, etc then the girl is treated as a "tomboy"; if they play enough of those games will likely receive comments of "never getting a guy". Of course, the last comment will possibly occur if a guy plays enough games to "never getting a girl", but the threshold is lower for girls receiving the comment in my experience.

As for "man up" that is an interesting one. I would not have considered it much of anything. Most times I hear it then it is short hand for "are you bleeding, get back on the horse and get it done" or "it can be done, go do it". Generally it is not even on my list of phrases people take exception to.

Do you hear "woman up"? Is "man up" said to women? I think when people start blatantly referencing gender or age, one has to consider if they're implying something about that gender/age. With boys, it's mostly about age not gender. I'd consider homophobia somewhat disconnected from toxic masculinity (as there's toxic femininity with the same mindset), but I imagine that depends a lot on your local culture. I definitely agree it's hard to narrow down what's the source/direction of toxicity, as it's not limited to gender roles, race roles, etc, but it definitely is a thing and it often is more cultural norms masquerading as gender norms. That's a major reason why it's so hard to define concretely because cultural norms aren't agreed upon and are fluid.
 

jt_1258

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This right here is another example of toxic masculinity, encouraging abusive behavior. Instead of encouraging someone to be open and express themselves, you decided to reward their parent's abusive actions that had made that individual feel so repressed that they don't feel safe enough to express themselves around their own parents. This also comes with the expectations that the same person will end up being as repressive of others their parents were.
Nah, I'm much more open around my friends. Not to often that I get to see them but it is a breath of fresh air.
 

SecureBoot

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Like most things, it's changed over times. So, "play games" is okay so long as they're "girl games". If they're competitive games, gory games, etc then the girl is treated as a "tomboy"; if they play enough of those games will likely receive comments of "never getting a guy". Of course, the last comment will possibly occur if a guy plays enough games to "never getting a girl", but the threshold is lower for girls receiving the comment in my experience.



Do you hear "woman up"? Is "man up" said to women? I think when people start blatantly referencing gender or age, one has to consider if they're implying something about that gender/age. With boys, it's mostly about age not gender. I'd consider homophobia somewhat disconnected from toxic masculinity (as there's toxic femininity with the same mindset), but I imagine that depends a lot on your local culture. I definitely agree it's hard to narrow down what's the source/direction of toxicity, as it's not limited to gender roles, race roles, etc, but it definitely is a thing and it often is more cultural norms masquerading as gender norms. That's a major reason why it's so hard to define concretely because cultural norms aren't agreed upon and are fluid.
You don't hear "woman up" because women aren't expected to be tough. The men of this generation need to stand up and be tough so they can provide for those weaker than them. Masculinity is a responsibility
 

comput3rus3r

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This right here is another example of toxic masculinity, encouraging abusive behavior. Instead of encouraging someone to be open and express themselves, you decided to reward their parent's abusive actions that had made that individual feel so repressed that they don't feel safe enough to express themselves around their own parents. This also comes with the expectations that the same person will end up being as repressive of others their parents were.
I can relate to his remark about his parents as I felt the same when I was young and 20 years later I'm glad my parent's didn't let me become a soyboy.
Also you're the example of toxic femininity as you can't stand the idea of men being men. You'd rather have all males be emasculated.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=#thebestwomencanbe
 
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FAST6191

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It is a term that is made to cover a wide verity of harmful behavior being masked as "masculinity." Basically ideas like, considering homosexuality to "emasculating," that men who express their openly express their emotions to be less "manly," and harmful teachings of what it should be considered "masculine." So the main issue of toxic masculinity is more so the idea men being forced into a small box of acceptable behaviors and attempting to fit outside of that box is met with social backlash.
So it is an intentionally fairly broad ranging concept that covers things others would take on a more case by case basis, and as such less useful than specifics or even really as a narrowing pathway in diagnostics. Worse is it seems to have a wide variety of definitions or interpretations out there in the world, several of which I find quite suspect. Oh well.

Well first I have to stress enough that this was a earlier time, when I was younger (and people was less open to certain things unlike today) most girls did not play games. I don't know if it cause they didn't see interest in them, but could also speculate that is because maybe they didn't find them intended for them. When games that started features story or relevant characters, they didn't feature female ones, and if they did, they usually was "Damsel in distress" rather than playable protagonist. While today there is plenty of games where they do have female characters depicted in positive influence to the player base regardless of the role in the game's story.

In the past, if you was a young elementary school student, you liked video games, playing with robot action figures and being dirty if you was a guy. Or style, playing with dolls, and staying clean and smell nice if you was a girl. It was very segregated between the two genders and if one of them showed interest in the things the other was mostly dominating, it made for some awkward times. But my point was the difference between today and the past, not trying to offend anyone here but that's how it was for some people. I personally didn't think much about it cause it seem exaggerated.

If memory serves you are still rather younger than I and have been doing this gaming lark since I too was a small lad. Still not remembering a time when women were unwelcome or uninvited as a general concept. I don't doubt demographics as a whole have shifted somewhat but I care less about that than people being made unwelcome.

Is "Damsel in distress" not a positive character role?

Like most things, it's changed over times. So, "play games" is okay so long as they're "girl games". If they're competitive games, gory games, etc then the girl is treated as a "tomboy"; if they play enough of those games will likely receive comments of "never getting a guy". Of course, the last comment will possibly occur if a guy plays enough games to "never getting a girl", but the threshold is lower for girls receiving the comment in my experience.



Do you hear "woman up"? Is "man up" said to women? I think when people start blatantly referencing gender or age, one has to consider if they're implying something about that gender/age. With boys, it's mostly about age not gender. I'd consider homophobia somewhat disconnected from toxic masculinity (as there's toxic femininity with the same mindset), but I imagine that depends a lot on your local culture. I definitely agree it's hard to narrow down what's the source/direction of toxicity, as it's not limited to gender roles, race roles, etc, but it definitely is a thing and it often is more cultural norms masquerading as gender norms. That's a major reason why it's so hard to define concretely because cultural norms aren't agreed upon and are fluid.

Yes, both as a "logical" counterpoint I have seen women told to lean into the femininity as it were, and as an amusing twist type thing to ultimately mean the same thing as man up (for want of a more precise phrase as a kind of gender neutral version of man up).
Yes I have heard it as a general phrase when women are engaged in a task and need some encouragement to get it done.
I don't know that age is the basis for such a thing, other than puberty tending to be associated with things.
For the most part I go with the classic harms done thing as far as how you approach the world, and will tie it in with "you do you" here*. However most times I hear the phrases it is people with an agenda and outlook on the world I find less than agreeable.

*it gets a bit more fun when it comes to parents doing things, and it gets tricky with the gay thing mentioned before. For instance I would have no problem with someone teaching their kid, gay and inclined to be a softly spoken mincer, to do all the "manly" stuff like hunting, martial arts, hard graft labour... not to stop them being gay but as a general thing they want them to know (and replace as necessary for the other gender options as it were), and compelling them strongly do such a thing. Many that would be inclined to throw around the phrases in question seem to fail to see that, never mind all the fun and games associated by many of said same with roughhousing.

It just all stems from a stupid commercial and never should be taken seriously.
Assuming you mean that Gillette business then it massively predates that -- here is a 2012 article from a fairly major publication covering things https://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2012/11/the-end-of-violent-simplistic-macho-masculinity/ , 2013 in wired https://www.wired.com/2013/10/breaking-bad-toxic-masculinity/ and you can find examples from the years before and after readily enough. While I have massive misgivings with the term/its definitions/it proponents/its usages in wild it is far from a term that lept out of some dusty textbook or was concocted in recent times.
 

The Catboy

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Nah, I'm much more open around my friends. Not to often that I get to see them but it is a breath of fresh air.
I am glad to hear that, but I am more referring to the reaction of saying that what they are doing is something that is ok. I'm sorry your post ended up being a good example.
So it is an intentionally fairly broad ranging concept that covers things others would take on a more case by case basis, and as such less useful than specifics or even really as a narrowing pathway in diagnostics. Worse is it seems to have a wide variety of definitions or interpretations out there in the world, several of which I find quite suspect. Oh well.
It's more of an umbrella term for harmful social and cultural behaviors, but it is also a case by case due to the nature of it. The best example I can give is that men/boys "aren't allowed to cry," which a lot have accepted as being a "masculine trait," but the effects of this cultural norm may be linked to a spike in young male suicides
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jan/17/boys-cry-male-suicide-dean-windass
This is an example of toxic masculinity because the repression of emotions may be linked to young males being unable to cope and harming/killing themselves as a means of "coping."
 

jt_1258

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I am glad to hear that, but I am more referring to the reaction of saying that what they are doing is something that is ok. I'm sorry your post ended up being a good example.

It's more of an umbrella term for harmful social and cultural behaviors, but it is also a case by case due to the nature of it. The best example I can give is that men/boys "aren't allowed to cry," which a lot have accepted as being a "masculine trait," but the effects of this cultural norm may be linked to a spike in young male suicides
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/jan/17/boys-cry-male-suicide-dean-windass
This is an example of toxic masculinity because the repression of emotions may be linked to young males being unable to cope and harming/killing themselves as a means of "coping."
Naa, it's not an issue being an example in this. I could just unwatch the thread snd forget about it and not worry about the replys that fallow it.
 

The Catboy

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I can relate to his remark about his parents as I felt the same when I was young and 20 years later I'm glad my parent's didn't let me become a soyboy.
Also you're the example of toxic femininity as you can't stand the idea of men being men. You'd rather have all males be emasculated.
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=#thebestwomencanbe
So what you are saying is, your parents didn't allow you to express yourself and somehow you believe that's a healthy means of treating another person.
Can you provide an example of me saying men can't be men?
 
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Deleted-379826

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I actually wanted to make the same post but didn't.

No, masculinity is a good thing. Men and women are not equal. They ecxel and stumble at different things. Men are great at dirty work and providing for others. They also, for better and worse, are quicker decision makers. They fail at things involving humanity. For example, sensitivity, planning ahead, considering everyone in a certain situation, etc. Women on the other hand, are great at those things. Compassion, prioritizing, seeing all opinions and understanding everyone etc. However they're not built for grunt work or making decisions where not everyone wins.

As a side note-- and this is controversal-- I think the best way to "make it" is to have a partner of the opposite sex who has natural abilities that your sex naturally struggles with. Consider the story of Esther. When the king wanted to kill all the Jews, Esther, knowing that this was wrong, decided to stop it. She knew she was in no position to overthrow her husband or run a country, so she used her natural persuasion as a women to convince the king to spare the Jewish people.

Genders are only toxic when one thinks they're superior to the other.
That just sounds like a bunch of gender stereotyping to me. A man can be great at showing compassion, prioritizing, seeing all opinions and understanding everyone the same way a woman can do dirty work, provide for others and be quick decision maker.
You don't hear "woman up" because women aren't expected to be tough. The men of this generation need to stand up and be tough so they can provide for those weaker than them. Masculinity is a responsibility
How is masculinity a responsibility? Is femininity a responsibility as well? Is it an obligation for you to comply with certain gender roles based on the gender you would be?
 
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Sonic Angel Knight

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It's more of an umbrella term for harmful social and cultural behaviors, but it is also a case by case due to the nature of it. The best example I can give is that men/boys "aren't allowed to cry," which a lot have accepted as being a "masculine trait," but the effects of this cultural norm may be linked to a spike in young male suicides
Okay I know about this as fact, cause that definitely was a big deal in the past.

But this? :blink:

This is an example of toxic masculinity because the repression of emotions may be linked to young males being unable to cope and harming/killing themselves as a means of "coping."
I don't even think about suicide. That's a bit extreme. Scary and crazy. But oh gosh no. I mean I suppose that could be possible. But I wouldn't dare think about people doing that. :ohnoes:

I figured there would be more depressing matters that would cause suicide like "live going down hill, nothing work their way, unable to support themself" But I suppose feelings and emotions are more scarier than I thought. :ninja:
 

The Catboy

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Okay I know about this as fact, cause that definitely was a big deal in the past.

But this? :blink:


I don't even think about suicide. That's a bit extreme. Scary and crazy. But oh gosh no. I mean I suppose that could be possible. But I wouldn't dare think about people doing that. :ohnoes:

I figured there would be more depressing matters that would cause suicide like "live going down hill, nothing work their way, unable to support themself" But I suppose feelings and emotions are more scarier than I thought. :ninja:
Not everyone deals with things the same way, but it is a possible link that may link to more possible issues. Men not being allowed to express their emotions may link to unhealthy coping mechanisms, such as substance abuse, anger issues, or other unhealthy behavior. Emotion suppression is just one piece of that puzzle.
 

jt_1258

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Okay I know about this as fact, cause that definitely was a big deal in the past.

But this? :blink:


I don't even think about suicide. That's a bit extreme. Scary and crazy. But oh gosh no. I mean I suppose that could be possible. But I wouldn't dare think about people doing that. :ohnoes:

I figured there would be more depressing matters that would cause suicide like "live going down hill, nothing work their way, unable to support themself" But I suppose feelings and emotions are more scarier than I thought. :ninja:
Yikes, yaa, suicide definitely isn't a great option. No matter bad life feals it could always be worse. Death is something you can never go back on and there is always the chance that things could get better. Live with hope, not pessimism.
 

SecureBoot

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That just sounds like a bunch of gender stereotyping to me. A man can be great at showing compassion, prioritizing, seeing all opinions and understanding everyone the same way a woman can do dirty work, provide for others and be quick decision maker.

How is masculinity a responsibility? Is femininity a responsibility as well? Is it an obligation for you to comply with certain gender roles based on the gender you would be?
Natural endowment my dude. Not saying you can't learn skills but genders naturally excel at certain things. Masculinity is the responsibility of providing for others and serving them greater than yourself. Being a not woman, I can't tell you the responsibility of femininity but I'm sure there is one.
 

kuwanger

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Men not being allowed to express their emotions may link to unhealthy coping mechanisms, such as substance abuse, anger issues, or other unhealthy behavior.

It's incredibly obvious too if you look at TV and movies. Men "coping" by drinking is made out to be a joke. By the same token, if you want to dispel any feelings of self-induced homophobia because of an awkward situation, you start talking about sports. Funny thing that I neither drink nor have an interest in sports.

Natural endowment my dude. Not saying you can't learn skills but genders naturally excel at certain things.

It's funny because the argument about transgenderism often degenerates in whether a person has a penis or a vagina. Yet, I can really figure out how having either one makes one "excel" in any of those things called masculinity or femininity unless one is suggesting one actually uses a penis or vagina to carry out those tasks. If anything, the notion of "natural endowment(s)" suggests that people being male or female is separate to said penis/vagina and further because said "natural endowment(s)" vary that there's a spectrum of gender between male and female.

Personally, though, I don't even know what it means to "feel" male or female. So, I'm probably not the best person to try to make that sort of distinction.

Masculinity is the responsibility of providing for others and serving them greater than yourself.

Funny as one could argue that it is the duty of all people to provide/serve other people as part of the great plan for humanity. Or at least, that's what I tended to understand the Christian message to be. Nothing about what Jesus said was really gender specific*, and most of history is full of males and females alike doing what you suggest. It's odd for a male to claim this to be a property of masculinity as if to own it, both its accolades and its supposed duty.

* Paul said a lot of things as did the Old Testament. I'm not a Biblical scholar, though, so take what I say with a grain of salt.
 
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