Do you find Communistic symbols offensive?

[MikaDubbz]

It’s an awful concept, both on paper and in practice. I disagree with your assessment, but I can respect difference of opinion.

Disagree all you like I guess. Should I feel offended or something? I've never understood online debates when they get to this point.

 

[Xzi]

Removing is the correct term. I was worried that you were going to use the word “murder”, which wouldn’t apply since he killed communists, not people.

It's hard not to see you as less than human yourself when you're literally choosing to align yourself with Hitler.

It’s an awful concept, both on paper and in practice. I disagree with your assessment, but I can respect difference of opinion.

The concept of capitalism on paper is that pencil pushers and middlemen get rewarded more for the minimal effort they put in than those working jobs that we can all agree are essential for society to continue functioning. Democratic socialism is objectively better on paper than democratic capitalism.

 

[Foxi4]

It's hard not to see you as less than human yourself when you're literally choosing to align yourself with Hitler.


The concept of capitalism on paper is that pencil pushers and middlemen get rewarded more for the minimal effort they put in than those working jobs that we can all agree are essential for society to continue functioning. Democratic socialism is objectively better on paper than democratic capitalism.

When did I align myself with Hitler? Hold on to your horses, pardner - I don’t like either side of the conflict. If they’re actively engaged in killing each other, all I need is a bag of popcorn and a lawn chair. Maybe a cold one too, and a set of binoculars - observe the whole thing from a safe distance. Safe distance is what we lacked, sadly.

The concept of capitalism is free exchange of goods and services. What you guys ascribe to it is just a projection of your own failures to operate within a system where you need to have something marketable to offer. Capitalism promotes ingenuity, individualism and entrepreneurship, communism promotes theft.

 

[asthepalacesburn]

Yes. You're a hypocrite if you allow Nazi imagery but not Communist Imagery.

 

[Foxi4]

Disagree all you like I guess. Should I feel offended or something? I've never understood online debates when they get to this point.

I don’t really care how you feel. I’m simply making a statement of fact - your explanation is insufficient and omits crucial elements of the communist doctrine. I pointed out, in excruciating detail, which ones. You don’t really have to address that, it’s all purely theoretical since none of this drivel can ever be realised - the system is unworkable and never gets past stage 2. It’s as if it was designed by the South Park gnomes - there’s a genocide-shaped “???” gap between “bloody revolution” and “utopia”, and nobody can fill in that gap with anything that is even remotely sensible. Thing is, you gotta do a whole lot of it before you get everyone in line. Nobody’s managed it yet, but hey! Might work next time.

 

[MikaDubbz]

I don’t really care how you feel. I’m simply making a statement of fact - your explanation is insufficient and omits crucial elements of the communist doctrine. I pointed out, in excruciating detail, which ones. You don’t really have to address that, it’s all purely theoretical since none of this drivel can ever be realised - the system is unworkable and never gets past stage 2. It’s as if it was designed by the South Park gnomes - there’s a genocide-shaped “???” gap between “bloody revolution” and “utopia”, and nobody can fill in that gap with anything that is even remotely sensible. Thing is, you gotta do a whole lot of it before you get everyone in line. Nobody’s managed it yet, but hey! Might work next time.

You know what I mean, extending a phony olive branch about how you can respect a difference of opinion. This is not the first time I've seen that nonsnese before. You clearly don't like my opinion, and that's fine, we don't have to find some common ground here if there genuinely isn't any. I hate that phony shit.

 

[Xzi]

When did I align myself with Hitler?

You choose to dehumanize the socialists that opposed him, while still implicitly acknowledging the humanity of the Nazis and Hitler himself. Perhaps the latter was just an oversight on your part, perhaps not.

What you guys ascribe to it is just a projection of your own failures to operate within a system where you need to have something marketable to offer.

All I'm ascribing to capitalism is exactly what has resulted from it. Nearly 80% of all US jobs are in the service industry, yet it's that same 80% of the population who end up as "have-nots." It's really no different or better than the caste system utilized by ancient Egyptians, only the technology has improved.

 

[Lacius]

Capitalism promotes ingenuity, individualism and entrepreneurship, communism promotes theft.

Unchecked capitalism promotes exploitation, corruption, pollution, poverty, etc.

 

[Foxi4]

You know what I mean, extending a phony olive branch about how you can respect a difference of opinion. This is not the first time I've seen that nonsnese before. You clearly don't like my opinion, and that's fine, we don't have to find some common ground here if there genuinely isn't any. I hate that phony shit.

I respect it in the sense that you’re entitled to have it and I won’t go out of my way to change it. I merely gave you some things that you might want to think about, if you elect to do so. What you actually do or think is both beyond my control and none of my business - it’s a free country. I don’t have to like your opinion in order to respect you having it.

You choose to dehumanize the socialists that opposed him, while still implicitly acknowledging the humanity of the Nazis and Hitler himself. Perhaps the latter was just an oversight on your part, perhaps not.


All I'm ascribing to capitalism is exactly what has resulted from it. Nearly 80% of all US jobs are in the service industry, yet it's that same 80% of the population who end up as "have-nots." It's really no different or better than the caste system utilized by ancient Egyptians, only the technology has improved.

I don’t know what you mean by that. If you’re making a reference to my earlier statement saying that Germans didn’t randomly woke up one day and decided to exterminate people for no good reason then there seems to be crossed wires here. There were many people, I would argue the majority, who lived under a variety of communist systems through no fault of their own, much like there were many Germans, I would argue the majority, who weren’t too fond of genocide, or perhaps didn’t even know about it. They’re no less victims than anybody else - just born in the wrong place and the wrong time. Some people are forced to do evil by circumstance, others choose to do evil - a subtle, if meaningful difference.

The latter part is kind of silly considering the fact that the lowest social caste of ancient Egypt were slaves, as in literal property, with no agency of their own. Making a string of bad decisions that leads you into a low wage career, and continuing on that path later in life, is elective. Getting caught in a net by a slave driver is not. Different discussion altogether though, and likely a wasted effort, judging by our previous conversations on the subject.

Unchecked capitalism promotes exploitation, corruption, pollution, poverty, etc.

Pollution I can begrudgingly agree on (with about 15,000 caveats that would only derail the conversation, so I’ll omit them for the sake of brevity), the rest not so much. If you willingly sign a contract that is not beneficial to you, you have nobody to blame but yourself - quit. If you quitting would mean that you won’t be able to find another job appropriate for your skill set, that means you’re not being exploited - you’re just unskilled and not marketable. Consider self-improvement - sorry, but you’re paid as much as you’re worth. Corruption is prevalent in all systems of governance (and arguably inevitable due to human nature), we criminalise it for a reason. Funnily enough, it’s also more prominent in communist countries on account of scarcity, but who’s keeping score in la-la land, right? Poverty is not a consequence of capitalism - capitalism was one of the most powerful forces in alleviating poverty globally throughout the 20th and the 21st century. The tremendous technological progress and increased living standards can be in large part attributed to the adoption of capitalist market principles.

 

[Xzi]

The latter part is kind of silly considering the fact that the lowest social caste of ancient Egypt were slaves, as in literal property, with no agency of their own. Making a string of bad decisions that leads you into a low wage career, and continuing on that path later in life, is elective. Getting caught in a net by a slave driver is not.

Records discovered in recent years actually disprove the notion that ancient Egyptians utilized slave labor. OTOH: privatized prisons and mandatory minimum sentences, coupled with the 13th amendment, ensure slavery is alive and well in modern-day America, let alone throughout our history.

 

[MikaDubbz]

I respect it in the sense that you’re entitled to have it and I won’t go out of my way to change it. I merely gave you some things that you might want to think about, if you elect to do so. What you actually do or think is both beyond my control and none of my business - it’s a free country. I don’t have to like your opinion in order to respect you having it.

Oh brother, spare me. You're as phony as they get if you're actually trying to convince anyone you believe such crap.

 

[KingVamp]

They claim to care about suffering, but never seem to care about the people suffering under capitalism.

Capitalism promotes ingenuity, individualism and entrepreneurship, communism promotes theft.

Some say taxation is theft. If you agree with that, then you don't like any of the modern capitalistic systems.

 

[Foxi4]

Records discovered in recent years actually disprove the notion that ancient Egyptians utilized slave labor. OTOH: privatized prisons and mandatory minimum sentences, coupled with the 13th amendment, ensure slavery is alive and well in modern-day America, let alone throughout our history.

Rubbish on both counts. Ancient Egyptians even had dedicated terms for specific kinds of slaves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Egypt

You’re probably confused due to fairly recent findings regarding the builders of the pyramids, not slaves in general. There are numerous ancient depictions of slaves being sold - it’s indisputable that slavery was commonplace in Ancient Egypt.

Felons are not slaves, they’re felons. Whether they’re imprisoned in a private or a public prison is immaterial, they’re not legally anyone’s property, which is the definition of what being a slave means. Minimum sentences have nothing to do with that either, setting minimums in regards to sentencing is an attempt at equalising and standardising sentences for common crimes, nothing more, nothing less. Not sure what your problem with the 13th is, you’d have to be more specific, but I bet it’s another projection.

Oh brother, spare me. You're as phony as they get if you're actually trying to convince anyone you believe such crap.

I’m not trying to convince anyone to believe anything - I don’t care what you think. I was pretty specific about that.

They claim to care about suffering, but never seem to care about the people suffering under capitalism.

Some say taxation is theft. If you agree with that, then you don't like any of the modern capitalistic systems.

Some taxation is theft, particularly the income tax, which stands in direct opposition to capitalist principles and functions as a penalty on productivity. It’s the socialist-minded political wing that came up with that chestnut, not the capitalists one, so no - I don’t have a problem with capitalism on the basis of a policy that capitalism doesn’t endorse. Capitalists are perfectly fine with paying for services rendered, they’re not okay with punitive taxation. Great topic for a thread about taxation - I wonder if people realise that the income tax wasn’t introduced to fund the well-being of the citizens, but rather to fund various war efforts over the years, not to mention that historically speaking it’s a fairly recent development.

 

[Xzi]

You’re probably confused due to fairly recent findings ragarding the builders of the pyramids, not slaves in general.

Indeed that's what I was referring to, so that's my mistake.

Felons are not slaves, they’re felons. Whether they’re imprisoned in a private or a public prison is immaterial, they’re not legally anyone’s property, which is the definition of what being a slave means. Minimum sentences have nothing to do with that either, setting minimums in regards to sentencing is an attempt at equalising and standardising sentences for common crimes, nothing more, nothing less. Not sure what your problem with the 13th is, you’d have to be more specific, but I bet it’s another projection.

Privatized prisons lead to judges on the take and widespread corruption of the justice system. It's not a coincidence that America has more people in jail relative to its population than any other developed nation. Mandatory minimum sentences had racist overtones and were designed to keep prisons filled with non-violent offenders serving ludicrous amounts of time. Even the architects of those policies have admitted as much (Joe Biden included).

And what's my problem with the 13th amendment? Only somebody who's never read it would ask that question. It keeps slavery perpetually legal within the US. The caveat that it's only legal as punishment for a crime isn't good enough, as crimes can completely differ from state to state, and entirely too many activities are considered criminal only for the poor.

Three things that must never be subject to the profit motive are: healthcare, the justice system, and education. These correspond directly to: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

 

[Foxi4]

Three things that must never be subject to the profit motive are: healthcare, the justice system, and education. These correspond directly to: life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

Forcing anyone to work regardless of profit margin through government coercion is indentured servitude, whether you’re talking about medical professionals, law enforcers or educators. What you’ve just described is closer to slavery than what you’re complaining about.

 

[duwen]

Lol, these threads....
How long before you snowflakes are getting triggered by literally any iconography, symbol or logo in existence?!?

 

[SyphenFreht]

Pollution I can begrudgingly agree on (with about 15,000 caveats that would only derail the conversation, so I’ll omit them for the sake of brevity), the rest not so much. If you willingly sign a contract that is not beneficial to you, you have nobody to blame but yourself - quit. If you quitting would mean that you won’t be able to find another job appropriate for your skill set, that means you’re not being exploited - you’re just unskilled and not marketable. Consider self-improvement - sorry, but you’re paid as much as you’re worth. Corruption is prevalent in all systems of governance (and arguably inevitable due to human nature), we criminalise it for a reason. Funnily enough, it’s also more prominent in communist countries on account of scarcity, but who’s keeping score in la-la land, right? Poverty is not a consequence of capitalism - capitalism was one of the most powerful forces in alleviating poverty globally throughout the 20th and the 21st century. The tremendous technological progress and increased living standards can be in large part attributed to the adoption of capitalist market principles.

"Consider self-improvement - sorry, but you’re paid as much as you’re worth."

While there is a stretch yet to be made, the idea behind this does get dangerously close to the idea of eugenics, especially in today's capitalist society when most post secondary schools are for profit and trade schools are either overlooked or have flooded the job market with a pool of skilled workers and not enough work to pay them adequately.

In a capitalist society, it's not a wrong allusion to make, people getting paid what they're worth. However, when you have companies still existing from when America was first founded that predominantly control much of our current government through lobbying and underhanded tactics, it's hard for everyone to start at the bottom and climb their way to the top to enjoy things like free enterprise and basic commodities. Look at the weed industry. How many fortune 500 companies were made from this industry, what with Marijuana being outlawed and enforced by timber companies and like? It's taken decades just to have the industry come close to being a publicly traded property, and we have capitalism to take for that. How many other companies, and the people who own them, have gone under due to monopolies and greedy corporate tactics?

In theory, communism on paper gives everyone the same base starting point, whereas capitalism creates an environment where everyone constantly has to fight for themselves, and does not often reward solidarity. In fact, capitalism is one of the few economic systems where you actively get punished for being poor, something communism can help alleviate, provided it's being done properly

 

[Dakitten]

Forcing anyone to work regardless of profit margin through government coercion is indentured servitude, whether you’re talking about medical professionals, law enforcers or educators. What you’ve just described is closer to slavery than what you’re complaining about.

Yay, finally replaced my old failing hard drive, and I come back to pages of Foxinsanity! I was really of the hope I wouldn't need to take more of those "just murder more of your peers 'cuz you're sub human lulz" comments... Totally not a comparable attitude to the folks you hate and wrongly affiliate with a progressive movement!

Taking it from here, though, methinks your imagination runs a bit short. In order to live in a capitalist country in any capacity, people need money. No money means you will die of starvation, exposure, and being denied access to gbatemp. As such, the government is coercing you to work a job. As it presently stands, law enforcement and ALREADY draws checks from the government, since... y'know... they enforce the laws... of the government... and they don't tend to think of themselves as "enforcement slaves", however teachers are a much more interesting situation since there are several attempts from the private sector to invade and sabotage our education system, and this ties into Xzi's point!

Education used to be a strong cornerstone of US values, but as more and more call has been made for private learning institutions (primarily aiming at religious and "conservative" values), funds have been diverted and politicians have been lobbied to strip away at the quality of the public resource. Introducing a profit motive to education has turned it into a dire battle with worse results, and now teachers are having to deal with dire issues. Even still, teaching is a noble profession and those who partake in it don't tend to call themselves "information slaves"... or at least I don't.

I'm also pretty sure that in countries where medicine is socialized, the doctors don't refer to themselves as "medicine slaves" either. And it works better for both the people who rely on them, and even the doctors themselves by and large. Thanks for bringing up one of Ben Shapiro's stupidest talking points to strengthen the idea that communism is superior to capitalism!

 

[Foxi4]

Yay, finally replaced my old failing hard drive, and I come back to pages of Foxinsanity! I was really of the hope I wouldn't need to take more of those "just murder more of your peers 'cuz you're sub human lulz" comments... Totally not a comparable attitude to the folks you hate and wrongly affiliate with a progressive movement!

Taking it from here, though, methinks your imagination runs a bit short. In order to live in a capitalist country in any capacity, people need money. No money means you will die of starvation, exposure, and being denied access to gbatemp. As such, the government is coercing you to work a job. As it presently stands, law enforcement and ALREADY draws checks from the government, since... y'know... they enforce the laws... of the government... and they don't tend to think of themselves as "enforcement slaves", however teachers are a much more interesting situation since there are several attempts from the private sector to invade and sabotage our education system, and this ties into Xzi's point!

Education used to be a strong cornerstone of US values, but as more and more call has been made for private learning institutions (primarily aiming at religious and "conservative" values), funds have been diverted and politicians have been lobbied to strip away at the quality of the public resource. Introducing a profit motive to education has turned it into a dire battle with worse results, and now teachers are having to deal with dire issues. Even still, teaching is a noble profession and those who partake in it don't tend to call themselves "information slaves"... or at least I don't.

I'm also pretty sure that in countries where medicine is socialized, the doctors don't refer to themselves as "medicine slaves" either. And it works better for both the people who rely on them, and even the doctors themselves by and large. Thanks for bringing up one of Ben Shapiro's stupidest talking points to strengthen the idea that communism is superior to capitalism!

If you expect a doctor to treat a patient regardless of whether or not the patient has means of payment for the services rendered, that’s indentured servitude - you expect someone to perform work without any remuneration. They can do that pro bono if they choose to do so, which is perfectly fine and common, but if you force them to do so, you’re one step removed from slavery. If you then expect me to give you a portion of my income, which is completely unrelated to this matter, in order to pay said doctor somehow with public funds, you’re appropriating my property, which is theft. Everything else is feel-good fluff. I don’t care how doctors call themselves in systems with socialised medicine - I’ve lived under two such systems at this point, the NFZ and the NHS, and so far the only things I’ve observed were inefficiency, wasteful spending and long queues. Have fun waiting four hours to see a practitioner, I’ll go privately if I ever need to and get seen to on schedule. Shame that I still have to pay for the crappier alternative anyway despite not using it. The only advantage of a public health service is accessibility, nothing more. I was always of the opinion that people who *can* afford to go see the doctor should be asked to pay at the till, any excess from those transactions should be used to fund a small, very limited service for those with no income or savings whatsoever. That’s a far more equitable and fair distribution model, with “the rich” paying “their fair share” for services rendered and the poor still being seen to. Unfortunately that solution makes too much sense, so it will never be enacted. Governments will always lean towards large molochs like the NHS instead, riddled with inefficiency, because it enables them to control every aspect of them and skim anything they can off the top. Thinking anything less is naive idealism.

"Consider self-improvement - sorry, but you’re paid as much as you’re worth."

While there is a stretch yet to be made, the idea behind this does get dangerously close to the idea of eugenics, especially in today's capitalist society when most post secondary schools are for profit and trade schools are either overlooked or have flooded the job market with a pool of skilled workers and not enough work to pay them adequately.

In a capitalist society, it's not a wrong allusion to make, people getting paid what they're worth. However, when you have companies still existing from when America was first founded that predominantly control much of our current government through lobbying and underhanded tactics, it's hard for everyone to start at the bottom and climb their way to the top to enjoy things like free enterprise and basic commodities. Look at the weed industry. How many fortune 500 companies were made from this industry, what with Marijuana being outlawed and enforced by timber companies and like? It's taken decades just to have the industry come close to being a publicly traded property, and we have capitalism to take for that. How many other companies, and the people who own them, have gone under due to monopolies and greedy corporate tactics?

In theory, communism on paper gives everyone the same base starting point, whereas capitalism creates an environment where everyone constantly has to fight for themselves, and does not often reward solidarity. In fact, capitalism is one of the few economic systems where you actively get punished for being poor, something communism can help alleviate, provided it's being done properly

That’s some mental gymnastics. If there’s a long queue of people with your exact skill set that can easily replace you, sorry, but your services are just not in high demand. You can change that by developing other skills, but your life’s troubles are not caused by me - I didn’t make your choices for you and I shouldn’t be burdened with their consequences.

 

[SyphenFreht]

That’s some mental gymnastics. If there’s a long queue of people with your exact skill set that can easily replace you, sorry, but your services are just not in high demand. You can change that by developing other skills, but your life’s troubles are not caused by me - I didn’t make your choices for you and I shouldn’t be burdened with their consequences.

So, applying this example to both capitalist and communist societies, what should one do when there is no opportunity to learn said skills? Should they, in America for example, take a chance and put themselves into debt going into a college of any kind to learn a skill that's not guaranteed to get them a job? What if their local community, as if often stateside, simply does not have the resources to teach new skills en masse, nor has a readily available job pool for the skills one wants to learn? The easy answer would be to relocate, but if they're already struggling financially to the point of consideration, what chances and resources do they have to actually benefit from that commitment?

Capitalism is an easy answer to an imminent problem, but when applied to long term issues, many of which stem from years of systemic economic abuse already in existence, it falls every time. The only way to sustain its idea is to constantly have a bottom level to exploit when supply and demand runs short