PS1/2 Do modern burners/CD's make lower quality PS1 backups?

[KleinesSinchen]

What I'm curious though of, is this ancient CD burner even capable of burning a valid LibCrypt disc?

You should have posted the answer, not the question only.
As far as I know early subchannel based SecuROM were already defeated by writing PQ subchannels only (16 bit, not 96 bit per sector). There might be problems with the ATIP check on some versions though.
Libcrypt shares some similarities with SecuROM.

 

[Alexander1970]

Can the IOMega Zip CD 650 USB from the year 2000 burn a LibCrypt CD-R correctly? Let's find out:

View attachment 398773

LibCrypt protection bypasses are being added to Tonyhax International. You'll be able to burn a normal bin/cue image and it will work just fine if International boots said disc even if your console has a non-stealth mod-chip or if it is unmodified and stock.

What I'm curious though of, is this ancient CD burner even capable of burning a valid LibCrypt disc?

Another question, does said valid LibCrypt disc work on the Japanese launch consoles? MottZilla thinks it is not even possible to play real import LibCrypt discs on the SCPH-1000 and early SCPH-3000 models with VC0A/VC0B CDROM controllers. This is due to those CDROM controller lacking the command that allows for reading the subchannel data.

Do you know this one ?

https://github.com/Kippykip/SBITools

MAKE ABSOLUTELY SURE YOU DO NOT BURN FROM A .CUE FILE!
Doing so WILL trigger the LibCrypt copy protection! Only open it from the .CCD file!Also make absolutely sure that there's a .SUB file under the same name and located in the same folder like so:

If there's no .SUB, or if you burn from the .CUE file then the LibCrypt copy protection will trigger and you'll burn a coaster!

He also says to burn (LibCrypt) PSX CD´s with maximum 2x Speed !

 

[alexfree]

You should have posted the answer, not the question only.
As far as I know early subchannel based SecuROM were already defeated by writing PQ subchannels only (16 bit, not 96 bit per sector). There might be problems with the ATIP check on some versions though.
Libcrypt shares some similarities with SecuROM.

So the drive can not read or write subchannel data. Also I tried ripping the CloneCD burned copy that does work with CDRDAO in BIN/TOC format using a modern burner and this command:
cdrdao read-cd --read-raw --read-subchan rw_raw --driver generic-mmc-raw yourgame.toc

Then burning it back with:

And that doesn't actually work like I thought it would.

Surprisingly, the SCPH-1000 with the oldest CDROM controller firmware does work with the CloneCD correctly burned copy.

Even more reason to bypass the protection then.

 

[KleinesSinchen]

So the drive can not read or write subchannel data.

Early CD writers weren't fully standardized as far as I know. They might require specialized commands rather than standard ATAPI.
I've got an old (1998) Creative 2x2x24x drive. It reports abilities for RAW-DAO+Sub96, but any attempt to write in this mode fails with Hardware error – Timeout on logical unit.
Unfortunately the drive is damaged as well. Probably due to age. Took me an hour to even get it reading… like this:


Currently trying to write a LibCrypt disc with it in RAW-SAO+Sub-??. Don't get irritated by the brown color and the text on the CD-R. It is an empty CD and just being written. Was a failed attempt to print a label on for a PC game; so the disc went to "garbage test stack". Interesting the camera was able to create an almost still looking picture – the drive was active.

No idea if the result will even be readable. Much of the old hardware is just beyond their time. Frequent power calibration errors until it finally started writing.

Also I tried ripping the CloneCD burned copy that does work with

CloneCD is an awesome piece of software! Had an own implementation of the CD scrambler early on… off topic.
In the end it can't do it's magic if the drive reports wrong values (like the old Creative).

Edit:
No dice. This old writer doesn't work anymore. Unreadable results.

 

[alexfree]

Early CD writers weren't fully standardized as far as I know. They might require specialized commands rather than standard ATAPI.
I've got an old (1998) Creative 2x2x24x drive. It reports abilities for RAW-DAO+Sub96, but any attempt to write in this mode fails with Hardware error – Timeout on logical unit.
Unfortunately the drive is damaged as well. Probably due to age. Took me an hour to even get it reading… like this:
View attachment 398845

Currently trying to write a LibCrypt disc with it in RAW-SAO+Sub-??. Don't get irritated by the brown color and the text on the CD-R. It is an empty CD and just being written. Was a failed attempt to print a label on for a PC game; so the disc went to "garbage test stack". Interesting the camera was able to create an almost still looking picture – the drive was active.

No idea if the result will even be readable. Much of the old hardware is just beyond their time. Frequent power calibration errors until it finally started writing.


CloneCD is an awesome piece of software! Had an own implementation of the CD scrambler early on… off topic.
In the end it can't do it's magic if the drive reports wrong values (like the old Creative).

Edit:
No dice. This old writer doesn't work anymore. Unreadable results.

Mine is definitely not standardized, it doesn't even show up in my Linux file explorer. CDRDAO can use it however. I had a feeling it wouldn't work out. The SubChannel settings are completely greyed out in CloneCD, and CDRDAO doesn't support anything in regards to subchannel for it.

I'm quite confused however why cdrdao using a different, modern burner didn't work for my other experiment. The idea was burn a proper copy of a LibCrypt game, then rip that burned disc in raw DAO 96, then you have a BIN/TOC file that should burn a proper LibCrypt disc. But somewhere in between there it messes up causing the protection to trigger.

LibCrypt has never been addressed by soft-mods, I can't wait to change that.

 

[alexfree]

So on LibCrypt…

I previously stated I would be adding bypasses for LibCrypt into Tonyhax International, I have played with this and frankly the increase in size needed to store all of the bypasses disgusts me. Tonyhax International is less then 32KBs even as of my unreleased v1.4.2 update adding support for many more games that only trigger on non-stealth mod-chip consoles. I doubt it will ever get over 32KBs from just adding bypasses for non-stealth mod-chip console game to the current code.

Anyways, I’m torn. See without adding bypasses, a real libcrypt PSX disc still would trigger on a Japanese or USA console with a non-stealth mod-chip. But adding those would never be realistic for most Tonyhax International boot methods, besides the boot cd and rom versions that is.

So currently I’m working on something, the ultimate libcrypt patcher. It’s one EXE, one file, you drag your game track 01 bin onto it and it detects the boot file and patches out all the protections in a libcrypt game using a database of existing patches. This is a universal way to burn any libcrypt games with any burner and have them work with and soft-mod and or non-stealth mod-chip console.

 

[KleinesSinchen]

I previously stated I would be adding bypasses for LibCrypt into Tonyhax International, I have played with this and frankly the increase in size needed to store all of the bypasses disgusts me. Tonyhax International is less then 32KBs even as of my unreleased v1.4.2 update adding support for many more games that only trigger on non-stealth mod-chip consoles. I doubt it will ever get over 32KBs from just adding bypasses for non-stealth mod-chip console game to the current code.

Why the limit to 32KB? I would have expected the limit to be below to 128KB – size of a Memory Card.
Admittedly slim software is "sexy" – and sadly dying out – but is there a specific reason for the 32KB?

Anyways, I’m torn. See without adding bypasses, a real libcrypt PSX disc still would trigger on a Japanese or USA console with a non-stealth mod-chip.

Wow. Didn't know that. I've always assumed LibCrypt would be happy once reading the correct subchannel and not check for region and/or modchip. The whole region blocking sucks as such and crashing games because of wrong region like those Japanese games searching for PAL consoles is a real dick move.

I don't know how much work it would be to have two branches. At least the boot CD, which is trivial to start up with an non-stealth modchip, has sooooo much unused space.

So currently I’m working on something, the ultimate libcrypt patcher. It’s one EXE, one file, you drag your game track 01 bin onto it and it detects the boot file and patches out all the protections in a libcrypt game using a database of existing patches. This is a universal way to burn any libcrypt games with any burner and have them work with and soft-mod and or non-stealth mod-chip console.

I've downloaded an applied some of the patches for LibCrypt games before knowing how to create working copies (15 years ago or so). The most aggravating about those was bundling cheats/trainers, NTSC/PAL switchers and most importantly stupid crack intros with the patch. That is not how to create proper backups or preserve media.
In my opinion any patching tool should just disarm the protection and nothing more.
===========

Keep up the good work and thank you for your efforts!

 

[alexfree]

Why the limit to 32KB? I would have expected the limit to be below to 128KB – size of a Memory Card.
Admittedly slim software is "sexy" – and sadly dying out – but is there a specific reason for the 32KB?



Wow. Didn't know that. I've always assumed LibCrypt would be happy once reading the correct subchannel and not check for region and/or modchip. The whole region blocking sucks as such and crashing games because of wrong region like those Japanese games searching for PAL consoles is a real dick move.

I don't know how much work it would be to have two branches. At least the boot CD, which is trivial to start up with an non-stealth modchip, has sooooo much unused space.




I've downloaded an applied some of the patches for LibCrypt games before knowing how to create working copies (15 years ago or so). The most aggravating about those was bundling cheats/trainers, NTSC/PAL switchers and most importantly stupid crack intros with the patch. That is not how to create proper backups or preserve media.
In my opinion any patching tool should just disarm the protection and nothing more.
===========

Keep up the good work and thank you for your efforts!

So there isn’t really any limit, but for reference the original Tonyhax is ~12KB loaded into the last 16KB of user RAM. International’s bypass system is completely different in order to support the Japanese consoles, and it takes up more space (currently about 29KB, loaded into the last 32KB of RAM). Again this can be changed arbitrarily, and I even have a few ways I could handle the increased size for executable loading and handling.

The larger the size, the longer it takes for the memory card based boot methods (GameSharkHAX, save game exploit, freepsxboot exploit). The freepsxboot exploit also has some issue apparently at 64KBs, at least I heard there is some bug in loading larger PS-EXEs. Even more important then any of that is that the memory card only has 15 usable slots (8kb each, 16 total). The first slot is used to store the file records and other stuff. So really you have 120K to use. But the best part about gamesharkhax and the save game exploit boot methods are that you can store other real save game files on the same memory card at the same time.

The thing however is there are quite a few libcrypt games. Some of them have 5 different versions for different regions, and then some have multiple discs. While I’m not ruling out a future for adding bypasses for libcrypt games to the boot methods that don’t involve the memory card (boot CD, ROM), that’s a lot of space to detect and apply all the patches. It’s also a ton of work. The thing that bothers me however is this means the libcrypt games which have a mod-chip check (most libcrypt v2/v3 games) would still trigger on real non-stealth mod-chip consoles. I might add support in the loader for just that check for the boot cd and ROM versions for the libcrypt titles that do check for mod-chip so the real discs work, but then I think the routines are checksummed so I might have to patch it all out anyways which might be the best regardless… And don’t forget, if it gets added to the boot cd then you could do the save game exploit, then boot the boot cd, then boot the game, etc.

So anyways that’s where I’m at. I was browsing some PSP thread on here and someone linked me this: https://ia902507.us.archive.org/view_archive.php?archive=/30/items/lib-crypt-ppf-patches/LibCrypt PPF Patches.rar

My understanding is that besides maybe 2 games all of these don’t have cracktros and just bypass everything. Those could also be addressed into different patches in the future. As much as I like the cultural significance of cracktros (it was their patch, they can release it however they want) I totally understand the annoyance with the delay in booting the game and the increased size of the patch. I do find the way they pull it off super interesting however, one of the old scene members is on Psxdev and I’ve talked to him a bit.

So I’ve been working on this patcher that can apply any ppf (ppf1.0/ppf2.0/ppf3.0) using internal unsigned char arrays applied based on automatic boot file detection. No longer do you need to hunt down the patch, the bin/cue, and input all of that into a patcher. This open source, portable, ‘ultimate’ libcrypt patcher will make it finally as easy as possible

 

[alexfree]

200+ LibCrypt discs supported so far, just need to clean up some things.

 

[Fien]

I tried 3 S-ATA disc burners with the same Platinum CD-R's which works fine when burned with the NEC ND-3550A. But none of them are satisfying.

- Sony-Optiarc AD-7280S
Minimum speed 8x
Disc cannot be detected by PS1

- Sony AW-Q160S
Minimum speed 16x
Disc do play, but has choppy audio

- ASUS DRW-24F1ST
Minimum speed 16x
Disc plays fine on SCPH-5552, choppy audio on SCPH-102


So in the end I'm back to my good NEC ND-3550A. It seems to be the only burner I have that can turn each (cheap) CD-R I throw at it into a good playing PS1 game.

 

[alexfree]

I tried 3 S-ATA disc burners with the same Platinum CD-R's which works fine when burned with the NEC ND-3550A. But none of them are satisfying.

- Sony-Optiarc AD-7280S
Minimum speed 8x
Disc cannot be detected by PS1

- Sony AW-Q160S
Minimum speed 16x
Disc do play, but has choppy audio

- ASUS DRW-24F1ST
Minimum speed 16x
Disc plays fine on SCPH-5552, choppy audio on SCPH-102


So in the end I'm back to my good NEC ND-3550A. It seems to be the only burner I have that can turn each (cheap) CD-R I throw at it into a good playing PS1 game.

Plextor PX-708A has been the best I've come across. Seems that high quality burners are the exception.

Post automatically merged: Mar 1, 2024

View attachment 400010
200+ LibCrypt discs supported so far, just need to clean up some things.

Also don't think I've linked this here yet https://github.com/alex-free/libcrypt-patcher Rest in pieces CloneCD!

 

[Deszero]

Thanks alexfree for the Libcrypt patcher!

What i thought... if the PlayStation runs best on a 71min disc, can't we use PSX80MP to insert dummy data like recommended in the documentation?
So when burning the pits are burned like intended.
The burner and media is also important but the PlayStation wouldn't struggle on a 80min disc anymore.
I know that's what the patcher is created for but is used more for PS2 hardware.

 

[Fien]

Plextor PX-708A has been the best I've come across. Seems that high quality burners are the exception.

But Plextor burners are not easy to find on the second hand market and if there's one, it's expensive

However, someone told me some Pioneer burners from that era was also quite good. I found a Pioneer DVR-107DB, it was only €2,50 so I gave it a try.

It seems to be fine, I burned a Tekken 2 disc and a K3 audio CD and both play fine on PS1's without skipping

This DVR-107DB identifies in the PC as a DVR-107D with 1.05-Medion firmware, so I think it was pulled from a OEM PC, Medion PC's where sold at Aldi's back then. Online I found old instructions to flash it to normal Pioneer 1.22 firmware, it should improve DVD burning. But I don't want to risk bricking it.

It can do 4x burning for CD's. It offers 4x, 8x, 16x and 24x which is the max. No very fast 48x or 52x.

 

[wolffangalchemist]

I have a ihas124b lite on drive that I have has since back in the xbox360 iburnerexteme days so obviously used it for mostlyburning 360 games originally, it doesn't give me any issues burning or ripping ps1 or ps2 games. I just recently ripped copies of digimon world for psx and monste rancher 4 for my personal collection archive the orginal disc are fairly worn and have some decently deep scratches that the ps1 or ps1 did not like and would skip badly during fmv playback. Digimon world burned to disc from the .bin and .cue I ripped and burned both at 16x with no fmv issues on my ps1 or ps2 both mod chipped.

 

[alexfree]

But Plextor burners are not easy to find on the second hand market and if there's one, it's expensive

However, someone told me some Pioneer burners from that era was also quite good. I found a Pioneer DVR-107DB, it was only €2,50 so I gave it a try.

It seems to be fine, I burned a Tekken 2 disc and a K3 audio CD and both play fine on PS1's without skipping

This DVR-107DB identifies in the PC as a DVR-107D with 1.05-Medion firmware, so I think it was pulled from a OEM PC, Medion PC's where sold at Aldi's back then. Online I found old instructions to flash it to normal Pioneer 1.22 firmware, it should improve DVD burning. But I don't want to risk bricking it.

It can do 4x burning for CD's. It offers 4x, 8x, 16x and 24x which is the max. No very fast 48x or 52x.

Added this to the list. Btw, the Plextor PX-708A can be found for $50-$90 on ebay, I got mine a while back for about $40.

Post automatically merged: Mar 5, 2024

I have a ihas124b lite on drive that I have has since back in the xbox360 iburnerexteme days so obviously used it for mostlyburning 360 games originally, it doesn't give me any issues burning or ripping ps1 or ps2 games. I just recently ripped copies of digimon world for psx and monste rancher 4 for my personal collection archive the orginal disc are fairly worn and have some decently deep scratches that the ps1 or ps1 did not like and would skip badly during fmv playback. Digimon world burned to disc from the .bin and .cue I ripped and burned both at 16x with no fmv issues on my ps1 or ps2 both mod chipped.

Also added these as will, keep them coming

Post automatically merged: Mar 5, 2024

Thanks alexfree for the Libcrypt patcher!

What i thought... if the PlayStation runs best on a 71min disc, can't we use PSX80MP to insert dummy data like recommended in the documentation?
So when burning the pits are burned like intended.
The burner and media is also important but the PlayStation wouldn't struggle on a 80min disc anymore.
I know that's what the patcher is created for but is used more for PS2 hardware.

The simplest way to describe it, is the data is physically bigger and easier to track for the PS1 laser as the size capacity of the CD-R goes down. An 80 minute disc is the same size as a 71 minute disc, but the 80 minute disc can hold more data in the same physical size because it is written tighter. The tolerance is lower as capacity increases physically, but modern hardware can handle such tolerances. 1994 CDROM hardware that was cheap at the time however is another story

So while the patcher won't change how big the data is written, it can help even the PSX when reading data towards the end of the disc. That issue is just more prevalent on PS2s.

 

[Fien]

I found some other burners, but they are not very satisfying too.

First I burned "Chocobo Racing" with a old Philips RWDV3210. And it burned coasters, all PS1's I have crashes at the SCEE logo. Media was a Philips (Ritek) and a Platinum (CMC) CD-R.

Then I burned the same game with a Lite-On LTR-48246S. This CD works fine on the SCPH-7502 & SCPH-9002. But on the SCPH-102 it's stuck at the SCEE screen and on the SCPH-5552 it has skipping FMV. Media was a Philips (Ritek) CD-R.

This same game burned using the NEC ND-3550A to the same Philips CD-R works fine on all the PS1's I have.


And some times ago I tried the ASUS DRW-1608P3S from my old PC. It seems to be based on a Pioneer DVR-111. But I'm not satisfied with it. The "Destruction Derby RAW" burned to a Platinum (CMC) disc works fine in all my PS1's, but the "Road Rash: Jailbreak" burned into a Philips (Ritek) CD doesn't boot on the SCPH-5552.

 

[alexfree]

I found some other burners, but they are not very satisfying too.

First I burned "Chocobo Racing" with a old Philips RWDV3210. And it burned coasters, all PS1's I have crashes at the SCEE logo. Media was a Philips (Ritek) and a Platinum (CMC) CD-R.

Then I burned the same game with a Lite-On LTR-48246S. This CD works fine on the SCPH-7502 & SCPH-9002. But on the SCPH-102 it's stuck at the SCEE screen and on the SCPH-5552 it has skipping FMV. Media was a Philips (Ritek) CD-R.

This same game burned using the NEC ND-3550A to the same Philips CD-R works fine on all the PS1's I have.


And some times ago I tried the ASUS DRW-1608P3S from my old PC. It seems to be based on a Pioneer DVR-111. But I'm not satisfied with it. The "Destruction Derby RAW" burned to a Platinum (CMC) disc works fine in all my PS1's, but the "Road Rash: Jailbreak" burned into a Philips (Ritek) CD doesn't boot on the SCPH-5552.

I’m rather curious if the other officially supported redump drives make good PSX burns. Looks like the Plextor 708A I have is the cheapest, but it would mean more confirmed known good cd burners for the PSX.

I have a theory that the 75XX and 90XX series (the last fats) are the best at reading burned CD-R discs. I don’t think you’re the only one who has found PSone 10X series to be more picky. And everyone knows about the earlier consoles (1000-3000 especially) being even more picky due to lack of auto bias/gain calibration, analog servo, just earlier tech in general, etc).

 

[xraymind]

Ok, I found this thread after I followed a link to Alex's The Ultimate Guide To PSX CD-Rs on Reddit. I recently got a hold of a modchip on Taobao that allow my Japanese 5500 PS1 to be region free without the need of replacing the BIOS. Don't know if it's based on the PSNee V8 project or not.

Anyway, back to the subject of this thread. I found out from the guide that was the worst case scenario that I had use USB laptop type drive(HL-DT-ST GTA0N) and Verbatim CD-R(CMC).

So here's my report on the results with the drive and disc burning at 16x(min) and 24x(max). The reason I burned as max speed is that someone YouTube claimed that he got better result at max speed with ImgBurn.

All disc burned at 16x fail to boot while some 24x disc booted up, but had major video shuttering issue. But the next day, some of the 16x were able to boot with major video shutting issue and all 24x were able to boot with minor video shutting issue.

Finally, I am found couple of my desktop DVD/CD burners in some boxes, still couldn't find those blank media I stored away years ago. I bought a USB to SATA adapter with 12v power supply from Amazon and I will report back on the results for those drives. Still have about 30 of the Verbatim CD-R left. Might have to buy some DataLifePlus CD-Rs, if I can't find my blank media. I thought I had bought some TY DVD-R and CD-R back then.

 

[Fien]

That GTA0N seems to be the same model as the "HL-DT-ST slimline in a Dell desktop (it's a Optiplex 9020)" that I tried in the beginning of this topic. The results are nearly the same: CD's burned with it booted, but the audio/fmv was choppy.

So far I remember, I had the choice for 10x with that drive.

 

[xraymind]

That GTA0N seems to be the same model as the "HL-DT-ST slimline in a Dell desktop (it's a Optiplex 9020)" that I tried in the beginning of this topic. The results are nearly the same: CD's burned with it booted, but the audio/fmv was choppy.

So far I remember, I had the choice for 10x with that drive.

You're right, it can burn at 10x. So I try burning 2 of same games at 10x that I had already burned at 24x with the drive.

Raycrisis(NTSC-U), both 10x and 24x seems to play the audio/video without any issue, but don't know if it's FMV or in game engine for the intro video.

Final Fantasy Tactics(NTSC-U), at 10x, intro FMV starts fine but 5 sec into it start major shuddering until the end of FMV along with the title screen audio. At 24x intro FMV has some minor shuddering, maybe around 3 or 4 times through out the FMV.

Once in while, the console will not be able to boot these CMC discs burned with GTA0N, both min and max speed burns. Had to turn off the console and retry again.

BTW, just bought these "open box" 2x 50pcs(100 discs total) Made in Taiwan DataLifePlus from eBay for US$25. Will see how these discs compare with the regular Verbatim discs that I had been burning.