Hacking Let's make WiiFlow Simple and Beautiful Again

[ToddofWar420]

Actually you have several ways to scan your games quickly in Wiiflow,
Just hold B and press UP or Down to jump from one letter to another, you can also enable gestures in wiiflow.ini and hold B and "Tilt" your wiimote right and left.

Really?!? That's awesome! I didn't know that but since you brought that to my attention, I think I'm going to try it out.
Thanks for posting that AbdallahTerro.

 

[Maxternal]

While we're on the topic of things you can turn on and off in wiiflow.ini :
there's also the d-pad shortcuts:

up -- Wii games
down - GameCube games
left - Plugins
right - Channels
(if you push the direction for the coverflow you're already in it will take you to homebrew.)

if I remember right.

 

[spacepimp]

EDIT:I should probably make clear that I am a long time wiiflow user. I'm not sure how long exactly, but i think the first wad I installed was a waninkoko rev 11b - ish? I think i had system menu 3.1? I'm no coder but I've modded maybe 12 wii's (for friends for family for free) and spend more time fiddling with the bl dy thing than playing it.

Gents, this is good information, thank you. Short cuts are a great way of getting around any interface, and and any user would do well to learn them.
However, you have to admit, it's not very intuitive is it? B on home for source menu? There is literally no visual clue in the interface to indicate that pressing B on the home icon might open the source menu, and isn't opening the source menu a bit too useful to have such a bizarre invocation?

EDIT: TO the casual reader, I encourage you to hit the show buttons above - thar be gold in thar text. But ask yourself this, while shortcuts are great, would I expect my gran or my 6 year old to remember all this? What about just Joe user? If you think the answer is no, then perhaps we need to look at these documents as a work in progress, rather than carved spear deep in some far off mountain. How would you do it?

It'a truism to say that there's an 'F' in RTFM because no one Rs TFM.

 

[Maxternal]

I do admit, I have thought there should be some sort of tool-tip that pops up when you point at buttons telling you what they do.
Miigotu said he was working on something like that be he hasn't been seen for months now.
Maybe it's yet another suggestion to add to GoogleCode.

 

[pwsincd]

was about to suggest what maxternal just said.

I agree with spacepimp on pretty much everything he has said , and the term "a bit clunky" is becoming a fair summary of how i feel too , I am viewing this from a personal standpoint and also that of my kids (the main reason im here at all) I can recall umpteen different key strokes etc , but it needs to be more intuitive as pimp suggests for my kids to be roaming around , they always ask shit like daddy put them gamecube games up again , or how do i go back to the wiiflow from in game or something or other . I understand it isnt a walk in the park to just alter something , having had yrs of web admin experience and suffered lots with members wanting all sorts of site enhancements etc , however it was always taken on board and compomises reached. I do hope these features can be ironed out as it would only benefit the overall user experience. If i had it set up how pimp suggests , i think i would just boot my wii direct to wiiflow , who would need SM for general use

 

[spacepimp]

Nice idea there people, and btw I appreciate your thoughts and support generally. The fact that you're kids can't use wiiflow is a beautiful illustration of what I'm trying to achieve with this thread, a useful perspective for contributors .EDIT: that i've just ripped off above! I'm an occasional techno-moron myself, so idiot proofing is where i find i best contribute. i would suggest a couple of optional refinements for your consideration, before your submission to google code. EDIT: Or lets just knock the ideas around for a bit more first!
1 How about the "right click" as used in wiiexplorer? A good implementation (is that the right word?), imo. Using the " + " button on objects feels like right clicking to a windows user, well this windows user, anyway.
2 As well as popping up a help bubble when holding the pointer over an object, 'Help' was an option on a context-relevant menu invoked by "right clicking" on an object?

Edit:
If anyone else thinks it's a good idea, i'd like to suggest + or right click on objects to open a pop-in context menu of either text or icons might be a more intuitve way to see the options associated with buttons and other objects, and might well reduce a SHED load of clutter. *Like* this and I'll put it on google code.

I would like to encourage pwsincd and Maxternal to submit this idea on the wiiflow googlecode page. If you think a pop up help bubble might be useful, *like* their posts, or write one of your own saying so. Perhaps they can be persuaded to put the request in, and the more support it has, the more likely a coder is to think it's worth doing.

 

[spacepimp]

I was going to do some housekeeping, tidy up the OP formatting and discuss some of the ideas proposed here and elsewhere, but I got caught up in reading the (silent f) manual. A few observations -
1 there's a lot of great functionality that doesn't get used because the user can't find it. and
2, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense - you can see how new features have been assigned almost semi random invocations - because we want to get them working - and it's running out of space. EDIT: According to Fledge, it already has.
3 there's a lot of it.
4 'B' gets used - a lot. Both in the the 'manual' and in this post
I can see why the devs might be reluctant to use 'B' as a back button to the source menu - Of course, it's already used for a bunch of short cuts and as a modifier key press (i mean by this it's often the second key in a dual key situation). There's a lot of coding effort gone into features that are currently only accessible using the 'B' button. I'd like to suggest that thinking of intuitive ways to invoke these functionalities without involving the 'b' button may be a fruitful area of endeavor. Low hanging fruit, baby.

Even before this, all is not lost - where the b button is used as an alternate press, another key could be used. I'll make a couple of suggestions but I'm sure you can think of others. + springs to mind, perhaps opening a context menu, or the down arrow could be quite popular this season..
However, there is a fundamental conflict between using 'B' to go back , using 'B' for gestures and using 'B' for a modifier button.
The 'B button is clearly the only suitable button to to use as a modifier, as it's the only button you can comfortably press while simultaneously pressing another with the same hand. which is why I suppose you have to enable 'b' for gestures i.e it's not the default. I expect using it disables the other 'B' behaviour, is that right?
How about we actively choose to turn on 'B' back button behavior like we do with 'B' activated gestures? Seems a reasonable compromise.
However, a compromise is what it is, i suppose we could have a poll!
"'B' Should be used for short cuts" Pro's and Cons Vs " 'B' Should be used for going backwards" Pros and Cons.

Would anybody like to speak on behalf of shortcuts if I set up a poll?
also,
Can anyone help me set up a poll? is this a bad Idea? really bored of pissing people off....
your thoughts and meditations are, as always, welcome.
S to the P to the ACEpimp

 

[spacepimp]

quick addendum, - a+b to quick launch a game seems a popular feature - would it be possible to invoke it with an 'A' double click (EDIT: or 'A' long press). instead? That seems just as intuitive, perhaps more so. There's a period of time between selecting a game and it's final position in X view (if you know what I mean) perhaps a second a click during this period could quick launch the game? Might be a bit sensitive, perhaps experiment with a more natural timing.
EDIT: Most of us were already aware, but it bears repeating, you can click A off screen to quick launch a selected game. See Abz post below. thx

 

[kylster]

I was going to do some housekeeping, tidy up the OP formatting and discuss some of the ideas proposed here and elsewhere, but I got caught up in reading the (silent f) manual. A few observations - 1 there's a lot of great functionality that doesn't get used because the user can't find it. and
2, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense - you can see how new features have been assigned almost semi random invocations - because we want to get them working - and it's running out of space.
3 there's a lot of it.
4 'B' gets used - a lot. Both in the the 'manual' and in this post
I can see why the devs might be reluctant to use 'B' as a back button to the source menu - Of course, it's already used for a bunch of short cuts and as a modifier key press (i mean by this it's often the second key in a dual key situation). There's a lot of coding effort gone into features that are currently only accessible using the 'B' button. I'd like to suggest that thinking of intuitive ways to invoke these functionalities without involving the 'b' button may be a fruitful area of endeavor. Low hanging fruit, baby.

Even before this, all is not lost - where the b button is used as an alternate press, another key could be used. I'll make a couple of suggestions but I'm sure you can think of others. + springs to mind, opening a context menu, or the down arrow could be quite popular this season..
However, there is a fundamental conflict between using 'B' for back , and using b for gestures and using b for a modifier button.
The 'B button is clearly the only suitable button to to use as a modifier, as it's the only button you can comfortably press while simultaneously pressing another with the same hand. which is why I suppose you have to enable 'b' for gestures i.e it's not the default. I expect using it disables the other 'B' behaviour, is that right?
How about we actively choose to turn on 'B' back button behavior like we do with 'B' activated gestures? Seems a reasonable compromise.
However, a compromise is what it is, i suppose we could have a poll!
"'B' Should be used for short cuts" Pro's and Cons Vs " 'B' Should be used for going backwards" Pros and Cons.

Would anybody like to speak on behalf of shortcuts if I set up a poll?
also,
Can anyone help me set up a poll? is this a bad Idea? really bored of pissing people off....
your thoughts and meditations are, as always, welcome.
S to the P to the ACEpimp

I think shorcuts should be posted to the D-Pad like how pL3 does; it's clean and sufficenent; I also think the (B) button should be a a back button because that's what we are all used to in previous console & even if there was no (B) button it has mostly if not always been in the same position. Well I gave you my small 2cents for free lol

 

[drakorex]

Well, I thought I'd chime in. Some topics may have been covered previously, but I'm just pulling them out of my head as they come.

1. I don't feel a home menu button on the coverflow is necessary. I think it should be moved to the source menu, up in the corner somewhere so as not to be in the way of plugins, and replaced by a source menu icon on cf.
2. B on mode button for emunand should be undone. For that matter the mode button should be removed entirely, as it is a one way cycle button. If I'm on dml and I want to go back to wii games, I find myself pulling up the source menu instead of cycling through all the modes.
3. The plugin menu (the one that resides in wiiflow settings for some reason) should be moved to the source menu.
(sidenote) Regarding the double tap quick launch idea, don't it already do that if you point off screen?
4. This may be either a good or bad idea, but would it be possible to bring in more wiimote motions? For example, holding b on a game cover to 'grab' it and flicking left or right to flick through a-z, instead of the current B+up,down? That would free those two button combos. on the same thought, b flicking up could bring up the source menu, and b flicking down could bring down categories.That's all I can think of atm, more might follow later.

 

[Maxternal]

Since we're throwing ideas out there, these may not all go together but they're what occurred to me while I was reading.

1. I don't feel a home menu button on the coverflow is necessary. I think it should be moved to the source menu, up in the corner somewhere so as not to be in the way of plugins, and replaced by a source menu icon on cf.

It seems to me it would fit nicely between the "exit" button (that goes back to coverflow) and the page button.

2. B on mode button for emunand should be undone. For that matter the mode button should be removed entirely, as it is a one way cycle button. If I'm on dml and I want to go back to wii games, I find myself pulling up the source menu instead of cycling through all the modes.

I actually think the d-pad shortcuts

Spoiler

up -- Wii games
down - GameCube games
left - Plugins
right - Channels
(if you push the direction for the coverflow you're already in it will take you to homebrew.)

should be made to be always on and not have to be turned on in wiiflow.ini. They don't seem to really get in the way or anything and it's a much faster way of getting through the modes.
Add that to the tool-tip idea and it would be great for noobs, too. You could even eliminate the cycling and have pressing (A) on THAT be what takes you to the source menu. I think it would be a very logical place to put it.
You would have to change the image used for it, though, but the current images could be made to be the default for the source menu buttons when there's no source_menu.ini present.

Wimote gestures (tilting while holding ) is something I think SHOULD be left as a wiiflow.ini option. I can see how accidentally hitting while the wiimote isn't exactly 100% horizontal could get annoying.

3. The plugin menu (the one that resides in wiiflow settings for some reason) should be moved to the source menu.

I always thought it should be moved somewhere else but exactly where was always the question. If you're saying to add it as one of the buttons in the source menu, that makes lots of sense since individual plugins AND all of them at once are already there. The button that says "exit" in the source menu is not really necessary since you also could just hit the source option you were already in and get back to it that way. That button could be replaced by the plugins menu.

(sidenote) Regarding the double tap quick launch idea, don't it already do that if you point off screen?

true, I guess the (A) + isn't really speeding things up THAT much anyway then.

4. This may be either a good or bad idea, but would it be possible to bring in more wiimote motions? For example, holding b on a game cover to 'grab' it and flicking left or right to flick through a-z, instead of the current B+up,down? That would free those two button combos. on the same thought, b flicking up could bring up the source menu, and b flicking down could bring down categories.That's all I can think of atm, more might follow later.

It would be cool to be able to grab a cover and kinda throw it in a certain direction and it would keep scrolling until it ran out of momentum, kinda like spinning a roulette wheel. How well it would work, though, would depend on which coverflow you have set in the themes (the ones you switch through with (1) and (2) ) it would be more intuitive with some than others. Using (A) + to grab would be more intuitive but that's already taken.

 

[spacepimp]

Some absolute gold there peoples, thanks for entering the discussion, the idea is "to throw ideas out there"! I'm just riffing too!
I'm going to quote your ideas both out of context and without credit, to keep it a bit easier to read, hope that's both cool and the gang?

Actually, I've got to run out, but can I just say:

Grabbing games with the A+B button to manipulate them seems intuitive. Grabbing the screen with the A+B button and spinning to my choice sounds FUN.

Maxternal, these things aren't set in stone - they have been developed on the fly as new functionality has been introduced, we should see the current interface as a work in progress, because (one thing everyone agrees!) that's what it is. most of the functionality is already there, most of the hard work already done, surely how we invoke it is what's up for discussion?

Lets get these ideas solid and on google code. they rock!

---

 

[AbdallahTerro]

No, B off screen still used in gestures,
BUT B on Modes button, or even A on Modes button will be a nice alternative.

 

[spacepimp]

Abz, but does it have to?
anyhoo, nighty night. lots to discuss tomorrow.

 

[spacepimp]

Maxternal said

I just tried 474 and everything seems to work fine.But,how am I supposed to access source menu? Just trying the + button over the icon it does nothing...

It's now been changed to pressing on the exit button (o)

Does anyone else think this is utterly mental?

It's easier to press than it is to press (+) and it's kinda a compromise instead of having the home button actually go to the source menu.

I admit it's not as easy as your idea of just hitting anywhere on the screen to go "back" to the source menu but that does make the (A) + game starting shortcut not work very well.
(You could always have the button go "back" to the source menu OR back to the categories menu ONLY for those who have it set to start there when they enter WiiFlow in the INI file ... or in some other way only enable it in the INI.)
((it could also be set to do so only when the cursor is not on the screen, that way it would not interfere with other shortcuts as much.))

EDIT : A better implementation than the off screen idea would be to have it only react in the moment you release the button because besides the quick launch shortcut there are at least 5 other shortcuts that incorporate the button already. It would have to only go "back out" to the source menu if no other shortcut was activated while holding .

 

[spacepimp]

Firstly, I would happily sell my children to see Maxternals weighed roulette wheel in use, please consider this idea before any of mine.
Before I go on to refine why...
I think the best solution all round, as loosely outlined by Maxternal in the above quote, is that users be able to assign invocations to functions within a single "interface" menu. Be that within the interface or directly editing a single ini.
ie. users can decide which buttons do what.
thus
Users could assign b to any function of their choice, A+b, a, plus, minus up down left right, motion controlls, on an object, on the screen, offscreen. You could have whatever function you want on the y axis of a matrix, buttons/actions on the x.
e.g. in my
1st draft fantasy button preferences:
b - on and off screen - opens the source menu*
+ - on an object - opens a context box
+ onscreen - opens a source-relevent context box

A on object opens x view
Double A press quick launches the game - (n.b. this is currently what is invoked with A+B press) sacrilege! burn him!!!!!!!!!!
*B on object jumps to back cover, X view?
Riffing there.

a+b (grab)- on screen - grabs the screen for left/right roulette wheel scrolling,
grab and down - opens the source menu (from above)
grab and up opens something else (from below - categories maybe?)
or grab and up/down could browse through the titles in a different dimension.ie. a different axis, letter scrolling,
a+b offscreen is opened up for a short cut - what would intuitively go with the roulette behavior? EDIT: Braking the wheel, doofus.
a+b grab on an object (currently ini switchonable to enable moving games around your collection) if i'm using the screen 'grab' action to manipulate the weighed roulette wheel, how could i use grab on an object? Quick launching a game seems obvious, but I would think accidental button presses whilst using the roulette wheel would quickly irritate. perhaps the whole screen should be grabbable as one entity to ease spinning. or object "A+B" grabbing could be enabled when the 'wheel' is very slow to stopped.
I do have some more stuff to discuss on the superb ideas already making an appearance, but must pop out.

I obviously think the roulette wheel is a BANGING idea, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

 

[MassiveRican]

Hi guys, I like where this discussion is going, so I'll chime in with my 2 cents as well I also agree that Wiiflow's GUI has felt a bit clunky but this is due to the large amount of functionality that has been added in such a short time span. What I like most about the possiblity of this topic is that we can all come to an agreement on how we can truly help polish the WiiFlow Gem and possibly influence a more refined and friendly user experience, however at the same time taking into consideration what can really be done and implemented properly and within a decent time frame. While thinking outside of the box is great, I believe the refinements to the GUI should be intuitive while at the same time hopefully not taking full coverflow re-coding lol.

Aesthetically pleasing improvements/enhancements to the GUI are a great discussion topic but should come second to the functionality of WiiFlow, I would prefer that the devs spend their time making sure the features of WiiFlow work properly and that game compatibility be damn near 100% (if not so) , on that same note that I believe it's the visual appeal of WiiFlow that really garners my, my friends, and all the kids attention. We love the flow what else can we say.. but alas a great example has already been made and unless you take the time to RTFM which I have, it's not as easy for my kids or gf or I'll say some of my dumbass friends to remember how to get around w/o asking the same questions over and over again.

So I won't propose any new ideas right now, however I really like what's on the table and will point out what changes I would like to see implemented. So far I like what [member='Drakorex'] and [member='Maxternal'], [member='Abdallahterro'] and [member='spacepimp] have stated and will fill in what I highly agree with:[list=1]
[*]Tooltips idea is excellent. As for how it should be implemented should be discussed. maybe the tooltip could have the "?" icon in the bubble which take you to the help screen and highlight the shortcuts and descriptions for that particular icon.
[*]Getting rid of the mode button is a good idea now, replace with source menu icon, or at least "b" on mode button should/can open up the source menu instead.
[*]Would like to see Plug-ins menu moved to source menu.
[*]** I would still prefer the idea of having the source menu be presented as a coverflow. Once you click on SNES cover for example then emuflow for SNES would begin** that way you could just click "b" to go back to coverflow and choose your next emulator.. or to do it quicker then you can just click on a source menu icon or hit "b" on mode icon to open up source menu if you wanted
[/list]
[i]Edit: Again I see this as a great place to help improve the usability and interaction that the end-user has with WIiFlow to keep things as simple yet feature rich as possible and while shortcuts to me are still all the rave and should continue to be used, I believe they can be implemented slightly better but only with the feedback of everyone including the developers, so maybe [member='Fix94'], Overjoy, and [member='Fledge68'] can stop by every now and then and give their input on what is a viable idea or alternative as to what we are proposing here.[/i]

 

[spacepimp]

Bless you squire, this ^ is some stirling work!
Thanks for actually reading the posts, and formulating a considered opinion. I almost entirely agree with every word, to the letter. My only difference of opinion is that, to me, intuitive means that even idiots can get around. Simply getting around is fundamental to every user, and it is a reachable, useful ambition to make WiiFlow as intuitive and fun to use as it is beautiful. Shortcuts are great, but they shouldn't be the only means of doing something, and wiiflow has run out of them.

I too am loving the out of the box shenanigans, but most of what is being proposed is about changing how existing code is invoked. i.e. the functionality, and therefore the code, is already written. If the user has control over which behavior invokes which function, most of this becomes a moot point, (ie. we're then talking about which defaults are most intuitive).

If some things are ridiculously ambitious, say so! Perhaps contributors with coding know-how might have solutions to make an idea more simple but just as effective. Perhaps describing the difficulties in providing a solution will suggest another, better, solution to someone else. Lets bash these ideas around, see if they stand up to scrutiny, just don't kill something because it seems too difficult at first blush.

point 1 - a question mark in a bubble is a lot cleaner, i agree, how about a 3 or 4 word tip with the question mark, clicking on the question mark then opens the help page at the entry as you suggest?

also, point 3 - I'm not clear on what you mean, could you expand on this a little, what do you envisage?

EDIT: I had intended to write a digest post, outlining some of the ideas that've popped up so far, but got caught up in MassiveRican's post. What are your favoured ideas? Have a look on google code, don't be intimidated, that's where it's at , yo. issues 74 ish plus are particularly good
EDIT: 1000+ views! thanks for reading! Hows about contributing your idea? Or just commenting on an idea you love (or hate!)

 

[spacepimp]

Had a couple of ideas I wanted to get down, just spitballing here, like in 50's american gangster movie,

I was thinking about the suggestion that the arrow keys open sources directly, as pl3 does. My only reservation is that there's no visual clue in the interface to indicate which arrow does what. and a simple press starts loading a new page, temporarily locking the user out while loading - this can be irritating for accidental presses. Am i right in thinking direction arrows currently nudge in the direction pressed? An accurate 1 page scroll might be more useful use for left and right (i.e. doesn't miss any titles out when scrolling between pages).
This got me thinking, what if up and down moved between initial letter?

EDIT: please note, HOLD DOWN 'B', and it already does!

I think as the browsing by initial letter functionality is already in place, perhaps a nice way of displaying the initial letter of the currently focused game could have the same functionality as the title display - eg,

Title is "Tomb Raider:etc." in foreground (as normal)
An alpha blended T floats in the background, another text element essentially copied and pasted from the way titles are displayed. wiiflow is the bomb at stuff like this.

 

[Maxternal]

I was thinking about the suggestion that the arrow keys open sources directly, as pl3 does.

Looking at the wiiflow.ini file on googlecode there are a few options that made me think back to this thread.

All these options are under the [GENERAL] section of your wiiflow.ini file.

1. Try changing the line to yes
dpad_mode=yes
and then press the d-pad buttons while pointing at the mode button. It's not quite like the way you're describing the PostLoader3 version but see how you like it.

2. As far as being able to grab covers and drag/throw them to navigate, I noticed this line
use_grab=
try setting it to yes or true or whatever and see what it does. I think I will, too, when I get home.

3. For now, for those who just want to get rid of the mode button all together, there's this line.
hideviews=
again, set it to yes and see how you like it.


Note: I always thought you set these things to "yes" and "no" but a few of them on the example on GoogleCode say "true" and "false" so if one way doesn't seem to be doing anything for you, try the other.
Also, the wiiflow.ini file on GoogleCode seems to have far fewer options than on it than the one on my Wii's hard drive so I think they just sometimes forget to update it when they're adding new entries. I hope some of the information isn't just outdated all together but I'll see when I can find time to try this and I'll report back when I see what the options I hadn't already tried really do.