What do you think of forced representation in games?

Deleted member 568892

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Assassins Creed Valhalla has black characters in it. One an exotic market trader and a viking raider. There might be others I haven't found yet. An exotic market trader barely makes sense but a black viking makes no sense at all. In reality a black person could not exist in a land where the sun barely shines in an era where animal products were rare and expensive because they would develop rickets and die.

The Advance Wars remake has black soldiers in it which looks forced because there were no black soldiers in the original.

Black characters worked in Assassin's Creed Black Flag and Wargroove but in the examples above they seem more about marketing the game to black audiences by shoving black characters where they don't belong.
 
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emigre

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I'm of Bangladeshi descent and growing up, there wasn't many people like me in the media I consumed especially in video games. I recall loading up a game (I think Saint's Row 2) where you could customise the main character but it was very limited didn't include south asian as an option which was grating.

More diverse representation in vidya games, I feel is a good thing. I don't want it to be forced or as a token. I appreciate greater diversity (gender, race, etc) in video games (and wider media) is how that can bring greater diversity in narrative and experience.
 
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XDel

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I am growing frustrated over the lack of Eskimo representation in video games. It really, and I mean REALLY chaps my hide!
I am at least glad to see that women's natural re-productive and nurturing tendencies are being dominated instead by wonder lust, narcissism, the corporate ladder, and chauvinism. That said, I guess I'm racist and sexist for making such rude observations of the marketing/propaganda machine. So much hate in my soul, what am I to do?
 

hippy dave

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What do you think of forced representation in religion?

tumblr_59572458ff911d3c3d37c35a42a154dc_b58bcafd_1280.png
 

Taleweaver

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I'm fine with it.

Let's say the opposite was the norm :that the video game industry was booming in different parts of the world, resulting in pretty much every video game character being black. I really wouldn't mind the occasional white guy being there for the sense of diversification either. Rather the contrary : even as a token stand-in, I'd appreciate the gesture.
 

LeyendaV

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To be fair, minorities has been represented in videogames since the 80s. The only reason that's under the spotlight now is 1) cause people seem to be more sensible about that stuff nowadays and 2) cause there's actually a way more representation now.

The only fair I really care about is creative freedom. A character can be whatever the heck its creator wants it to be, as long as it is that because of a reason that goes with the story and the game mechanics. Because, when it doesn't and it feels forced, you know the only purpose was trying to be aspolitically correct as possible to boost sales.

So, do companies use that as a sale booster while not really caring even the slightest about minorities? Absolutely.
Is it bad that minorities get more representation? Of course not, quite the opposite.
It's ok that minorities feel happy about being represented? Yes it is!


Even the old Assassin's Creed games weren't the greatest at sticking to 100% accuracy.

Wait, you are telling me I wasted the last 14 years of my life searching for a fruit that doesn't exists!?
 

Raendor

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How dare games have anything but white people: the thread

Since when are video games hardline documentaries for historical eras? Even the old Assassin's Creed games weren't the greatest at sticking to 100% accuracy.

They can be whatever people as long as they are appropriate for the setting.
Black vikings and white samurais are ridiculous. Stop tipping it only to the anti-white side of the spectrum.
 

Julie_Pilgrim

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I would not say that is always true, See "Battlefield V" for a prime example of throwing out historical accuracy and pissing off its fans.
ah yes, battefield, the series known for it's 1:1 historical accuracy *insert gif of me reviving my teammates*
 
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Xzi

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Doesn't bother me any, very few games aim for true historical accuracy anyway. Most fall under the category of either fantasy or sci-fi, with Assassin's Creed always having been a little bit of both. Additionally, very few parts of the world were ever completely homogeneous where race was concerned, so it's nothing worth screeching about.
 

FAST6191

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Things I am not
Wizard
Knight in medieval times
Peasant in medieval times (though I suppose give it a few years)
Space marine
regular marine in [modern era]
marine in time before guns
Ninja (got to maintain that cover)
Medieval blacksmith
Alien whose primary concern is being 90s cool.
Shopkeeper
Merchant
Person with kids
Survivor of post apocalyptic wasteland (though again give it a few years).
City planner
Hunter gatherer in tribal times
Operator of hospital
Samurai
Giant robot
Policeman
Small animal that gets stomped easily
Small animal that gets stomped easily but is given control of robot power suit.
Small child in scary world that gets stomped easily. Technically might have been that at one point though.
Race car driver
AI bent on survival against hostile humans (hopefully give it a few years)
God type entity with ability to toy with the fundamentals of life.

Guess what I have been able to enjoy playing as in any number of games over the years? Any number of each of those. Repeat the same for all that and more for books, films, TV shows, comics, plays...
The idea that I need to be a self insert in all games, or at the very least have someone looking like me (an idealised form of me) in a mirror is ridiculous.

Tokenism is boring story writing. Most times it should be left on the cutting room floor -- if you have cut everything that does not add to the story/character or get explored in it then you probably still have some more to cut but are getting closer to being done. Likewise themes are generally universal.

See Barnum-Forer effect
You have a great need for other people to like and admire you.
You have a tendency to be critical of yourself.
You have a great deal of unused capacity which you have not turned to your advantage.
While you have some personality weaknesses, you are generally able to compensate for them.
Your sexual adjustment has presented problems for you.
Disciplined and self-controlled outside, you tend to be worrisome and insecure inside.
At times you have serious doubts as to whether you have made the right decision or done the right thing.
You prefer a certain amount of change and variety and become dissatisfied when hemmed in by restrictions and limitations.
You pride yourself as an independent thinker and do not accept others' statements without satisfactory proof.
You have found it unwise to be too frank in revealing yourself to others.
At times you are extroverted, affable, sociable, while at other times you are introverted, wary, reserved.
Some of your aspirations tend to be pretty unrealistic.
Security is one of your major goals in life.

The trick is give everybody a "personality test" and then send that back as the results. In a room "how many feel that generally matches you" will get a lot of agreement.
This is also to say while I have never felt any great desire to fumble genitals matching my own for fun and pleasure then I can still happily engage with a story about two such people doing love and loss in modern day, historical times, future space colony. You might get two or three "oh noes there is gays here" types but if you write such a story and nobody engages with it then it is because either your marketing failed (rare as word of mouth does well for a lot of things) or more likely you wrote a shit story so stop blaming your failures on others. Those going with the "we did not make it for you" where you is some group they imagine (whether that reflects reality or not is usually more than debatable) to be higher ranked in society are at very best limiting their work, though more like excusing it -- stories are universal or at least very much can be. The elements of storytelling might make this harder to convey in a given medium (all having their strengths and weaknesses), a common shorthand (maybe even code speak) can be a nice shortcut (though amusingly enough your shorthand might alienate the ones alone in the world you are likely to claim to want to help as they don't know it), and personal experiences harder still -- I have never had depression, I am physically quite capable, my mind and knowledge thus far in life have basically been in case https://imgur.com/ifOmTRM happens, or if we are doing games then Factorio is my mission statement, and have a fairly serious moral code by which I operate, games can and have stripped all that away from me and got me to think like someone else which is part of their strength over other media.

I find the reverse bizarre in the extreme as well. Some claiming "that someone like me" is on screen when the world they inhabit is one full of magical creatures, ancient orders, a societal structure and moral code completely alien to any on earth (never mind the one the claimer lives in) or within any kind of living memory, oh and they have demigod like powers and are functionally immortal and at least centuries old (which itself is major break from human psychology)... OK then.
One theoretically immutable trait does not a person make either, and usually the ones to get tokenised are some of the least interesting of all.

Example of if not good character creation, one that feeds into story decisions, then a better path than most pick and one that if you follow will do you well in writing stories or analysis of the works of others.

Means, motive, opportunity... that is usually heard in the context of dealing with crimes but incentives and psychology are massive factors.

Games can be ahistorical fantasy. Gets harder when you want to claim to be realistic or at least seek the veneer of it. Something like Valkyria Chronicles being quite fine while the whole Battlefield cyborg lady on the front lines of grim and gritty world war 2 otherwise simulator... yeah (and that is not even going into the very real mission to blow up the heavy water factory and what was done there).
Trying to score brownie points from morons on the internet when you could be doing almost anything else to make your game better is also rather counterproductive, maybe not quite as bad as token multiplayer mode but up there.
 

Deleted member 514389

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Wizard
Knight in medieval times
Peasant in medieval times (though I suppose give it a few years)
Space marine
regular marine in [modern era]
marine in time before guns
Ninja (got to maintain that cover)
Medieval blacksmith
Alien whose primary concern is being 90s cool.
Shopkeeper
Merchant
Person with kids
Survivor of post apocalyptic wasteland (though again give it a few years).
City planner
Hunter gatherer in tribal times
Operator of hospital
Samurai
Giant robot
Policeman
Small animal that gets stomped easily
Small animal that gets stomped easily but is given control of robot power suit.
Small child in scary world that gets stomped easily. Technically might have been that at one point though.
Race car driver
AI bent on survival against hostile humans (hopefully give it a few years)
God type entity with ability to toy with the fundamentals of life.

Guess what I have been able to enjoy playing as in any number of games over the years? Any number of each of those. Repeat the same for all that and more for books, films, TV shows, comics, plays...
The idea that I need to be a self insert in all games, or at the very least have someone looking like me (an idealised form of me) in a mirror is ridiculous.

Tokenism is boring story writing. Most times it should be left on the cutting room floor -- if you have cut everything that does not add to the story/character or get explored in it then you probably still have some more to cut but are getting closer to being done. Likewise themes are generally universal.

See Barnum-Forer effect


The trick is give everybody a "personality test" and then send that back as the results. In a room "how many feel that generally matches you" will get a lot of agreement.
This is also to say while I have never felt any great desire to fumble genitals matching my own for fun and pleasure then I can still happily engage with a story about two such people doing love and loss in modern day, historical times, future space colony. You might get two or three "oh noes there is gays here" types but if you write such a story and nobody engages with it then it is because either your marketing failed (rare as word of mouth does well for a lot of things) or more likely you wrote a shit story so stop blaming your failures on others. Those going with the "we did not make it for you" where you is some group they imagine (whether that reflects reality or not is usually more than debatable) to be higher ranked in society are at very best limiting their work, though more like excusing it -- stories are universal or at least very much can be. The elements of storytelling might make this harder to convey in a given medium (all having their strengths and weaknesses), a common shorthand (maybe even code speak) can be a nice shortcut (though amusingly enough your shorthand might alienate the ones alone in the world you are likely to claim to want to help as they don't know it), and personal experiences harder still -- I have never had depression, I am physically quite capable, my mind and knowledge thus far in life have basically been in case https://imgur.com/ifOmTRM happens, or if we are doing games then Factorio is my mission statement, and have a fairly serious moral code by which I operate, games can and have stripped all that away from me and got me to think like someone else which is part of their strength over other media.

I find the reverse bizarre in the extreme as well. Some claiming "that someone like me" is on screen when the world they inhabit is one full of magical creatures, ancient orders, a societal structure and moral code completely alien to any on earth (never mind the one the claimer lives in) or within any kind of living memory, oh and they have demigod like powers and are functionally immortal and at least centuries old (which itself is major break from human psychology)... OK then.
One theoretically immutable trait does not a person make either, and usually the ones to get tokenised are some of the least interesting of all.

Example of if not good character creation, one that feeds into story decisions, then a better path than most pick and one that if you follow will do you well in writing stories or analysis of the works of others.

Means, motive, opportunity... that is usually heard in the context of dealing with crimes but incentives and psychology are massive factors.

Games can be ahistorical fantasy. Gets harder when you want to claim to be realistic or at least seek the veneer of it. Something like Valkyria Chronicles being quite fine while the whole Battlefield cyborg lady on the front lines of grim and gritty world war 2 otherwise simulator... yeah (and that is not even going into the very real mission to blow up the heavy water factory and what was done there).
Trying to score brownie points from morons on the internet when you could be doing almost anything else to make your game better is also rather counterproductive, maybe not quite as bad as token multiplayer mode but up there.

I'd disagree with the first entry...

As for ontopic:
The same thing I thing about everything that's "forced":
Not a whole lot....

Why do people want to be /special/ so much nowadays.
Just do a good job and thats that.
That's all that matters.
 

zxr750j

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I'd rather have a game where I was forced to be a younger black (or asian etc.) girl (or man etc.) with a nice booty. My current representation wouldn't sell well in shops... I don't want to be represented by an eskimo by the way, I don't like the cold.

I don't think I'm a racist but that's easily said being a white male person.
 

Jayro

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I like the inclusion of different real-world races in character creation. As for NPCs, staying away from stereotypes can be difficult, but is always welcome.
 

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