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What do the Left and Right agree on?

Xzi

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Sweden industries are heavily deregulated. They have less regulation then the United States. @Attacker3 as shown by the link he posted. So if U.S. should be like Sweden then that means less government regulation.
Precisely why I said we can't be exactly like Sweden. For the most part their corporations are aware that they sink or swim along with the rest of the citizenry. In the US corporations see themselves as the ruling class and don't really care what happens to the rest of us. Thus the reason they're happy to help crash the economy every ten years or so, whenever we ease off the regulations a bit. If it means increased profits in the short-term, then they'll feel like they're insulated from a bad US economy anyway.

I'd love it as much as the next guy if McDonald's and Wal-Mart decided to start paying a living wage to their employees without any outside pressure necessary. They won't even do it with outside pressure though, so it's just not realistic to expect that type of behavior from greedy US corporatists.
 
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SG854

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Precisely why I said we can't be exactly like Sweden. For the most part their corporations are aware that they sink or swim along with the rest of the citizenry. In the US corporations see themselves as the ruling class and don't really care what happens to the rest of us. Thus the reason they're happy to help crash the economy every ten years or so, whenever we ease off the regulations a bit. If it means increased profits in the short-term, then they'll feel like they're insulated from a bad US economy anyway.
The economy got worse through government intervention and regulation, not the free market.
Government was responsible for prolonging Great Depression and for the 2008 Recession.

We had a similar Stock Market Crash in 1987 that was comparable to the crash of the Great Depression. President did nothing to fix it and nothing bad happened.

I don't see how ruining the economy will benefit them. They get dragged down too.
What would you qualify the ruling class? How much income you would have to earn?

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Precisely why I said we can't be exactly like Sweden. For the most part their corporations are aware that they sink or swim along with the rest of the citizenry. In the US corporations see themselves as the ruling class and don't really care what happens to the rest of us. Thus the reason they're happy to help crash the economy every ten years or so, whenever we ease off the regulations a bit. If it means increased profits in the short-term, then they'll feel like they're insulated from a bad US economy anyway.

I'd love it as much as the next guy if McDonald's and Wal-Mart decided to start paying a living wage to their employees without any outside pressure necessary. They won't even do it with outside pressure though, so it's just not realistic to expect that type of behavior from greedy US corporatists.
Most McDonalds workers are teenagers and young adults living with their parents. Raising minimum wage are sort of like tariffs, it prices certain people out that don't produce what the minimum wage is, it eliminates competition. And It raises unemployment. They also loose out on experience to move up the economic ladder.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Heres a recent video that came out a few days ago what $15 minimum wage laws did in New York for car wash.
Black markets formed. Many business shut down. And they were forced to automate.

 
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CORE

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Just out of curiosity all those Hilary supporters here did you get your favor from Madonna maybe even have a Poll.



I mean I have to be honest no one on the Right offered such a Favor but did She deliver? because Trump seems to be delivering on his promises Making America Great Again if only UK had a strong leader to do same.

Oh and by the way The Revolution has already Happened The People Voted For Trump.
Brexit is in the works but unfortunately we have traitors in UK Government as everywhere does.
As for women being at the top and Equal Rights what about Marine Le Pen and how Jealous you all seem to be over Melania and Trumps Daughters and im not gonna get into the sick shit you post about Trumps young son.
 
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Xzi

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The economy got worse through government intervention and regulation, not the free market.
Government was responsible for prolonging Great Depression and for the 2008 Recession.
On the 2008 crash we just fundamentally disagree. The cause was was private banks, housing lenders, and the stock market playing fast and loose with junk stocks/bonds that had bundled in unaffordable (predatory) mortgages. Government did de-regulate too much up to that point, but it was corporations pushing for that de-regulation throughout the years. Proving once again that they can't be trusted to act responsibly when they have oversight coming only from themselves.

Most McDonalds workers are teenagers and young adults living with their parents.
That hasn't been true for roughly a decade. I see middle age and even elderly individuals working McD's all the time. They're half of the available employment in some more rural towns, the other half being Wal-Mart. Additionally, every dollar they underpay their employees is money that taxpayers as a whole have to make up for in the form of welfare and food stamps.

Heres a recent video that came out a few days ago what $15 minimum wage laws did in New York for car wash.
Black markets formed. Many business shut down. And they were forced to automate.
I don't think even $15/hr would be enough to live on in New York unless you live in a cardboard box. That said, this means nothing because it's a car wash. A good portion of those are already automated or self-serve and have been for some time.
 
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SG854

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On the 2008 crash we just fundamentally disagree. The cause was was private banks, housing lenders, and the stock market playing fast and loose with junk stocks/bonds that had bundled in unaffordable (predatory) mortgages.
If there was no government backed Fannie May and Freddie Mac then they would have never done the predatory lending in the first place.
If government stayed out and didn't promise to bail them out, and didn't force regulations to meet racial quotas that started this whole thing in the first place, then none of this would have been possible. Banks were regulated and intervened by government. They weren't a total free market.

And I don't see how it's predatory for free market banks to lend money they will never get back. Thats not a smart business decision.
Watch out for those free market capitalist that lend money to people with bad credit that won't pay any money back to the banks. Ooooooo!
Halloween is coming up right

I don't think even $15/hr would be enough to live on in New York unless you live in a cardboard box. That said, this means nothing because it's a car wash. A good portion of those are already automated or self-serve.
If you want to make New York affordable you don't raise minimum wage because that just causes unemployment to go up. Get government out of the housing market. Get rid of land restriction laws that raises the price of land because of supply and demand.

And also get rid of rent control laws that artificially lowers the price of housing. It doesn't benefit the poor, it instead benefits upper income brackets because its cheaper housing for them. And lower prices causes housing to be unprofitable. So people build unecessary luxury housing because they are exempt from price control, which then means more expensive rent.

That hasn't been true for roughly a decade. I see middle age and even elderly individuals working McD's all the time. They're half of the available employment in some more rural towns. Additionally, every dollar they underpay their employees is money that taxpayers as a whole have to make up for in the form of welfare and food stamps.
If they are still working at Mcdonalds at middle age then I would question the persons life choices rather then Mcdonalds. Only 3% of people above 24 yrs earn minimum wage.

And McDonalds offers all kinds of scholarship opportunities and tuition assistant programs people can take advantage of.
https://www.mcdonalds.com/us/en-us/careers/training-and-education.html

Wait, they are half of the available employment in rural towns? What do you mean by this? Half of McDonalds workers are middle aged?
Why don't they just get another job. With a high school diploma, 20+ yrs? of fast food experience, why don't they move to a better paying fast food place or restaurant. They are not taking advantage of work opportunities and educational opportunities they have. Immigrants that come to this country with very little other then the clothes on their back are able to make decent pay, send their kids to college and some open businesses within 1 generation. I really question whether these middle aged fast food workers are very bright.
 
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Taleweaver

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If there was no government backed Fannie May and Freddie Mac then they would have never done the predatory lending in the first place.
If government stayed out and didn't promise to bail them out, and didn't force regulations to meet racial quotas that started this whole thing in the first place, then none of this would have been possible. Banks were regulated and intervened by government. They weren't a total free market.

And I don't see how it's predatory for free market banks to lend money they will never get back. Thats not a smart business decision.
Watch out for those free market capitalist that lend money to people with bad credit that won't pay any money back to the banks. Ooooooo!
Halloween is coming up right
Your first paragraph is completely wrong; the second is interesting (I'll get to that).

Fannie May and Freddie Mac, along with a few others (Bear Sterns, IIRC) weren't initially backed, and were never intended to be either. But it was Lehman Brother's bankruptcy that showed the world that the financial sector was so interwoven that the downfall of one company was basically like one domino falling down: it brought down a lot of others. All over the world, governments were quickly forced in an enormous hold-up: either buy up their assets - even though they were openly known to be toxic - or watch the entire financial world go down.
The ugly truth is that before this came to light, banks were so badly regulated that it was a dead letter. Rating bureaus like standard & poor at best had a few well-meaning clerics doing the tasks banks allowed them to do. I remember one hearing where someone said that it was just him and a handful of colleagues overseeing the entirety of all wall street transactions, with no decisive power whatsoever. It's no coincidence that Adam McKay portrayed them as blind men in the movie The big short. Joris Luyendijk (a local writer) used the analogy of a flying airplane that no longer had a pilot.

The whole problem was that by the deregulation, there had been no difference between insurances and savings. While both are done in "banks", the merging of the two made as much sense as a normal household merging with its neighboring casino. For as long as the casino keeps winning, it's a nice idea: the next door house provide some extra cash and as long as the casino makes a profit, they both profit. Unfortunately, the analogy is flawed because banks told house owners that their investments were safe whereas they were in effect a complicated gamble. It's been ten years, but we still have a major lawsuit because a bank that had to be saved flat out lied to people that their savings were safe...until it went up in the 2008 chaos.


If you ask me, there's certainly something criminally wrong with banks lending money they "know they won't get back". I mean...it only creates problems where there were none before: pretty much everyone thinks that they will be the ones paying back the mortgage. It's especially problematic because they at the same time pretend to be the objective source to verify whether or not they can afford it in the first place.
However, that's not where the crux of the situation lies. Banks assumed they would always make a profit from a sold house. Either they profited because the owner payed everything back (plus interest, obviously). Or they profited because the owner couldn't pay everything, and they got to sell the house. This, of course, hinged on the assumption that houses would never lose in value. Which they did.
and that's where the real crime really is: they used their assumption as certainty. Say they have 100'000 dollars. Some guy (A) comes along and loans it. The bank, at that time, realistically has zero dollars. However, they argued not unrealistically that because they would ALWAYS recover, they could just as well write out a loan for 100'000 dollars to guy B. That's the thing that should've been legal (heck...even counterfeiting), but they treated these 'I owe you''s, so to say, as a means to generate more money. Not in "just" lending the same sort of money to every Joe that wanted a loan, but in large investments where they bundled them together and traded them up to the point where nobody could find the actual money in it anymore.

I agree with you that these banks should've been punished for their actions. And hard, as well. I've got from media sources that I trust that in the first days, they were genuinely scared that this would be the case. But then their lobbyists convinced governments about the upcoming chaos that would ensue (and make no mistake: pretty much everyone's savings was on the line, so worldwide riots were far from an unrealistic scenario), and banks were saved instead. Banks didn't knew they were too big to fail before...but they do now.

And that's why I'm more scared of hedgefund managers, financial CEO's and the like than anything halloween-related. they're not evil per se. They're just too greedy and short-sighted to allow to be unregulated. Yet your line of "it's the government's faul" thinking is becoming more commonplace in, ironically enough, the US government.
 

Attacker3

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What I did say, however, was that the rate of increment in technology improvements need to grow, and needs to grow fast. An exponential growth that is typical for some phenomenon (AMONG WHICH Moore's law) would certainly help in the long run, but we're really running out of time to even achieve that.
Moore's law has to do with transistors doubling every two years in semiconductors. It has nothing to do with anything other than that. Why are you talking about stuff you have no idea about? That just looks bad and puts a taint on all of what you're saying.

You haven't checked that link I wrote.
Wow, my fucking god. Of course I didn't watch your fucking stupid video, because I knew that they'd probably misrepresent the fucking data and fearmonger like they always do. I went straight to the god damn source and looked into it, and it said that shit would happen, but nothing really cataclysmic. Hell, I could link you a video that says the exact opposite, that it's totally bullshit and stuff, but that doesn't make it right. That's why you go right to the source.


It's just that they need international laws to push them into that direction, because as it is, it's simply far more lucrative to stay the current course.
So tell me what laws would you put in place that would prevent people from being laid off. Oh wait, you admitted it's more lucrative to stay doing this. People are going to end up out of jobs because companies can't afford to keep as many people on payroll.

Not the mention the moral question of forcing private entities to do things, and the impact of more regulations on competition. People complain about the "free-market" in the USA, but with all the regulations they aren't even close. You're asking for even more to be put in place.

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

On the 2008 crash we just fundamentally disagree. The cause was was private banks, housing lenders, and the stock market playing fast and loose with junk stocks/bonds that had bundled in unaffordable (predatory) mortgages. Government did de-regulate too much up to that point, but it was corporations pushing for that de-regulation throughout the years. Proving once again that they can't be trusted to act responsibly when they have oversight coming only from themselves.

If you ask me, there's certainly something criminally wrong with banks lending money they "know they won't get back". I mean...it only creates problems where there were none before: pretty much everyone thinks that they will be the ones paying back the mortgage. It's especially problematic because they at the same time pretend to be the objective source to verify whether or not they can afford it in the first place.

And guess what? If a bank in a free market gave out all it's money to people who couldn't pay it back, they'd go out of business. It's almost like having the government back them up isn't a free-market hmmMMMMMmmm

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

: either buy up their assets - even though they were openly known to be toxic - or watch the entire financial world go down.
You make it sound like everything would be nuked and shit. It might last a little while, but it would end up going back to normal.
 
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Xzi

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If there was no government backed Fannie May and Freddie Mac then they would have never done the predatory lending in the first place.
If it's not specifically regulated against, corporations will always take advantage of any loopholes they can. The government did not tell them to loan to people incapable of paying them back, that was a private business decision from start to finish. They knew they'd get a couple checks and that was it, but they didn't care because they could just pass the junk stocks/bonds on to someone else.

And I don't see how it's predatory for free market banks to lend money they will never get back. Thats not a smart business decision.
See above. They were mitigating the risk to themselves (or so they believed) by bundling bad mortgages with other things to disguise them inside of stocks/bonds. A lot of people made a lot of money by selling what they knew was garbage before the crash finally came.

Watch out for those free market capitalist that lend money to people with bad credit that won't pay any money back to the banks. Ooooooo!
This stuff is way too complex for your free market Joe Schmo. Banks and other large corporations get to set their own regulations, and thus they know exactly how to game those regulations. It wasn't the first time it's happened and it won't be the last.

If you want to make New York affordable you don't raise minimum wage because that just causes unemployment to go up. Get government out of the housing market. Get rid of land restriction laws that raises the price of land because of supply and demand.
You're living in a fantasy world if you believe every penny saved by landlords is a penny in savings they pass on to tennants. Say they did everything you're suggesting, and then the landlords raise rent. What are you gonna do about it? There's no rule saying they can't. All you've done at that point is further line the pockets of people who are already rich. In fact, that's the scam of free market ideology as a whole. The vast majority of citizens don't give a shit about the stock market because its only real purpose is to make the rich richer.

Wait, they are half of the available employment in rural towns? What do you mean by this? Half of McDonalds workers are middle aged?
No, I mean that some rural towns have a McDonald's and a Wal-Mart, maybe a couple gas stations, and that's it. So McDonald's provides at least a fourth of the employment in those towns, if not more.

If they are still working at Mcdonalds at middle age then I would question the persons life choices rather then Mcdonalds. Only 3% of people above 24 yrs earn minimum wage.
Service jobs are 77% of employment in the US, not everybody has the option of choosing anything else. And "above minimum wage" is $7.75/hr or more, below $10/hr you're going to need some form of supplementary income in just about every part of the country. Again I don't understand how you can blindly trust corporations to do the right thing in a totally free market when they're already making taxpayers foot the bill for the employees they underpay. Too many places are now switching to a tip system so they can lower wages that way as well.
 
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Moore's law has to do with transistors doubling every two years in semiconductors. It has nothing to do with anything other than that. Why are you talking about stuff you have no idea about? That just looks bad and puts a taint on all of what you're saying.
:blink:

You have got to be kidding me.

...

Ah, screw this. If you don't want to listen, then so be it.
 

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:blink:

You have got to be kidding me.

...

Ah, screw this. If you don't want to listen, then so be it.

"
Moore's law is the observation that the number of transistors in a dense integrated circuit doubles about every two years. The observation is named after Gordon Moore, the co-founder of Fairchild Semiconductor and Intel, whose 1965 paper described a doubling every year in the number of components per integrated circuit,[2] and projected this rate of growth would continue for at least another decade.[3] In 1975,[4] looking forward to the next decade,[5] he revised the forecast to doubling every two years.[6][7][8] The period is often quoted as 18 months because of a prediction by Intel executive David House (being a combination of the effect of more transistors and the transistors being faster).[9]"
from wikipedia

im sorry that you're using terms you don't understand, but don't just give up once you get called out on them.
 

SG854

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You're living in a fantasy world if you believe every penny saved by landlords is a penny in savings they pass on to tennants. Say they did everything you're suggesting, and then the landlords raise rent. What are you gonna do about it? There's no rule saying they can't. All you've done at that point is further line the pockets of people who are already rich. In fact, that's the scam of free market ideology as a whole.
But in order for this to be true then it would have to be true everywhere in the United States, its not. Houston and Dallas have cheaper housing prices. Coastal California and New York have expensive houses because of land restrictions. Places that don't have land restrictions are cheaper. It was government regulation that caused expensive housing.

https://www.heritage.org/government...lations-have-created-the-problem-unaffordable

The vast majority of citizens don't give a shit about the stock market because its only real purpose is to make the rich richer.

Same is true for prices for everyday items in San Francisco. Basic items are more expensive because of higher real estate. Higher prices are to make up for the more expensive land they bought, created by land restriction. There are bills businesses have to pay. Total costs for those same items in Northern California can range from a low $80 in the least expensive store, to $125 for the most expensive store. Even 3 different Safeway markets can range from $98 to $103.

Not only that there is cost of inventory. Cheapest stores has 49% of the items on their shopping lists in stock at any given time. While a store like Safeway can have 75% of their items in stock. The price differences are because they have a much larger inventory to manage, even when the items are the same from store to store.

Prices are not artificially set out of thin air to whatever they want. A way to know is competition. What they sell for compared to what others sell and area of locations to consider. Prices and Costs aren't the same thing either. This is why artificially setting prices low with government regulation has never worked and millions died. With government you can force businesses you think are evil price gougers to sell for lower prices but the costs to produce the items will still be the same. Someone has to pay those costs. Even if you subsidize to keep the prices low for the average consumer, the costs is still the same and has to be payed for somehow and its through our taxes.

If you think people are ripping you off in the housing market, well we have experiments of that with rent control laws. New York and San Francisco has some of the strongest rent control to keep prices affordable, and instead of cheaper housing they are some of the most expensive places to live and have the highest homeless rates even though they have enough housing space for these people. Quality of housing declined compared to non rent control places, they have more plumbing problems and aren't up kept. This is a testament that they aren't greedily price gouging like people think they are. I don't think people that complain about greed knows what its like to run a business.
 
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SG854

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Your first paragraph is completely wrong
They were government created agencies. They were backed because they ran on the promise government would bail them out in a crisis through our taxes.
They were able to buy up mortgages from banks, and with that money were able to loan money right away.

It was liberal Democrats that were led by Senator Christopher Dodd and Congressman Barney Frank, for years denied that Fannie May and Freddie Mac were taking big risks that could lead to a financial crisis. They even refused requests from the Bush Administration to set up agency to regulate them.

It was these same liberal democrats led by Dodd and Frank, who pushed Fannie May and Freddie Mac to further promote sub prime mortgages, which was the main cause of the crisis.

Alan Greenspan, Chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers to the President, and Bush's Secretary of Treasure, all warned about the dangers of sub prime mortgages. And yet they blame the crisis on the Bush Administration and Right Wing Politics and De-Regulation.

They blame it on the free market and yet government pressured them to give out sub prime mortgages, through the Community Reinvestment Act, and there was threats of legal law suits by Attorney General Janet Reno if banks didn't meet the quotas they imposed, with statistics they were forced to provide to government regulatory agencies on who was getting loans and who wasn't. Does this sound like a Free Market?
 
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SG854

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Since I'm falling behind, I just want say that Sweden has a bigger labor union than us. If that means anything.
Scandinavians do much better under the American economic system then the Scandinavian one.

Median Income of Scandinavian Americans is 20% higher then your average US income. It's true that poverty rates are lower in Scandinavia then the US. But poverty rates among Scandinavian Americans are lower then those in Scandinavia. Which suggest that there is a cultural influence, and the US system benefits them more.

GDP of Swedish Americans is 39% higher then Swedes living in Sweden.
GDP of Danish Americans is 37% higher then Danes in Denmark.
GDP of Finnish Americans is 47% higher then Fins living in Finland.
They are affluent in America.

Danish Americans standard of living is 55% higher then Danes in Denmark.
Swedish Americans standard of living is 53% higher then Swedes in Sweden.
Finish Americans have a standard of living 59% higher then Fins in Finland.

They have half the unemployment rate in America then their relatives across the Atlantic.
And Swedes in America immigrated when Sweden use to be one of the poorest places in the world looking for better opportunity. So this wasn't your cream of the crop. But they do better then their cousins in Scandinavian countries. America has great opportunity and income mobility. It's whether you take advantage of it or not.

https://marginalrevolution.com/marg...do-danish-americans-do-better-than-danes.html
https://ime.bg/bg/articles/mityt-za-uspeha-na-skandinavskata-socialna-dyrjava/
 
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KingVamp

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Yet, every time I look it up, the Nordic countries seems to be the most happiest overall. Part of that is probably because they have better services than us. Link

Not saying their system is perfect, but neither are ours.
 

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@Taleweaver @Xzi

Just to show proof that i’m not making up that the Bush Administration was pushing for regulation. Barnie Frank was against Bush administrations regulation and was pushing to lower lending standards. Bush administration was pushing Congress hard to regulate Fannie and Freddie and called it a systemic risk. It sounds counter intuitive, regulating government regulators that were forcing more home ownership.



And here after the crisis Barnie Frank is blaming conservatives for pushing more homeownership on people, completely avoiding his role is the housing crisis. He’s a flat out liar.



I don’t know how people can watch these videos and still blame deregulation on conservatives and Bush administration when they were the ones pushing for it. Democratic Party are trying to rewrite history.

And if you don’t like that it’s Fox just because it’s fox, c-span also has footage you can find. I don’t trust politicians either democrats or conservatives because they both lie.
 
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