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The US Supreme Court has just abolished Affirmative Action in regards to college/university admissions. Do you believe this is right or wrong?

Xzi

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Jews outside of Hollywood are actually fairly conservative, just look at Israel itself.
Eh I'm not interested in stereotyping one way or the other, Shapiro is a category of whackjob all to himself which is what makes him so easy to joke about.

I don’t think there’s any self-hate there, he just happens to have a very different idea on how things should work in the country compared to somebody like you.
Nah, the money's gotta be good if he's willing to ignore just how much of his audience subscribes to the "1488" school of thought, if you get my drift. There is some footage of him confronting his own audience for that type of behavior, but there's a lot more footage of him swallowing his pride when hateful discussions inevitably turn to holocaust denial and related subjects.

I’d be careful with resorting to psychoanalysis of strangers, particularly in regards to self-loathing, considering you’ve spent the entire thread advocating for an ostensibly racist policy that is detrimental to your own self-interest, statistically speaking. One might mistake that for self-loathing, or as they call it nowadays, “white guilt”.
Being well beyond college age, I'm as impartial as one can possibly be on the subject. You've convinced me that one negative doesn't cancel out the other in this particular circumstance, but that doesn't mean there won't be any negative fallout as a result of this ruling, either. A no-win scenario isn't worthy of celebration until the underlying causes of the conundrum are fixed.
 
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Eh I'm not interested in stereotyping one way or the other, Shapiro is a category of whackjob all to himself which is what makes him so easy to joke about.


Nah, the money's gotta be good if he's willing to ignore just how much of his audience subscribes to the "1488" school of thought, if you get my drift. There is some footage of him confronting his own audience for that type of behavior, but there's a lot more footage of him swallowing his pride when hateful discussions inevitably turn to holocaust denial and related subjects.


Being well beyond college age, I'm as impartial as one can possibly be on the subject. You've convinced me that one negative doesn't cancel out the other in this particular circumstance, but that doesn't mean there won't be any negative fallout as a result of this ruling, either. A no-win scenario isn't worthy of celebration until the underlying causes of the conundrum are fixed.
Be careful when you throw stones if you happen to live in a glass house - there’s no shortage of anti-semitism on the other side of the aisle, although admittedly the leftist variety tends to stem from the “eat the rich” and “hang the bankers” mindset more than anything, with a healthy dose of “free Palestine” in the mix. I’m happy that we met somewhere in the middle, we can hang the banke— I mean, we can shake on two wrongs don’t make a right.
 
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Have to chuckle at the people who are celebrating the end of "racist" policy, many of whom have benefited from systemic racism (which they likely deny exists), with a subset likely being racist (making them hypocrites). Also hilarious are those who think that anything like a true meritocracy exists in the real world or that anything resembling a true level playing-field exists. Whenever I read right-libertarian viewpoints, I can only imagine that such perspectives come from an imaginary realm full of Platonic forms, or perhaps that such views are just a manifestation of extreme disconformation bias (and usually an inflated ego). Encountered a somewhat similar phenomenon at university, where some philosophers relied on their "infallible" sense of reason, regardless of whatever falsifying facts might exist in the real world. That said, I don't have the energy, nor the inclination, to "debate" this with ideologues. Racism exists. There may be better and worse ways to deal with the implications....
 

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Have to chuckle at the people who are celebrating the end of "racist" policy, many of whom have benefited from systemic racism (which they likely deny exists), with a subset likely being racist (making them hypocrites). Also hilarious are those who think that anything like a true meritocracy exists in the real world or that anything resembling a true level playing-field exists. Whenever I read right-libertarian viewpoints, I can only imagine that such perspectives come from an imaginary realm full of Platonic forms, or perhaps that such views are just a manifestation of extreme disconformation bias (and usually an inflated ego). Encountered a somewhat similar phenomenon at university, where some philosophers relied on their "infallible" sense of reason, regardless of whatever falsifying facts might exist in the real world. That said, I don't have the energy, nor the inclination, to "debate" this with ideologues. Racism exists. There may be better and worse ways to deal with the implications....
My country is 95% white Catholic and homogeneous, slavery is an alien concept to my nation as it did not pursue overseas conquests and did not participate in the slave trade. Black people were normally “gifted” to Polish nobility by foreign dignitaries, causing some confusion as to what to do with them besides giving them employment, education and lodge. For all intents and purposes they were liberated upon arrival. These black servants were treated considerably better than our own peasants in the Middle Ages, were free to travel, marry, own land and live as they pleased. Jan the III Sobieski’s best friend and most trusted butler was black, and he famously weeped after his death in Vienna at the hands of the Turks. They were always considered our “dark-skinned brothers” and due to their considerable “value” they were never tasked with hard labour, in stark contrast to other countries of the era. They usually worked as butlers, personal assistants or administrators. Some even raised to the rank of nobility themselves, or became various government officials.
 

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My country is 95% white Catholic and homogeneous, slavery is an alien concept to my nation as it did not pursue overseas conquests and did not participate in the slave trade. Black people, known as Sarmats, were normally “gifted” to Polish nobility by foreign dignitaries, causing some confusion as to what to do with them besides giving them employment, education and lodge. For all intents and purposes they were liberated upon arrival. These black servants were treated considerably better than our own peasants in the Middle Ages, were free to travel, marry, own land and live as they pleased. Jan the III Sobieski’s best friend and most trusted butler was black, and he famously weeped after his death in Vienna at the hands of the Turks. They were always considered our “dark-skinned brothers” and due to their considerable “value”, were never intended for hard labour, in stark contrast to other countries of the era. They usually worked as butlers, personal assistants or administrators. Some even raised to the rank of nobility themselves, or became various government officials.
And I've met some black people in Canada who told me that they didn't experience much, or any, obvious racism. In Canada, First Nations people seem to bear the brunt of it and I saw lots of racism where I was born, notably from the police force and government, but also lots in the general population; I've also witnessed First Nations people being racist against caucausians, which is no better, but somewhat understandable given how they have been mistreated historically. But travel to the Southern USA and systemic racism against blacks is obvious in myriad ways, which is why affirmative action policies were put in place there. Racism doesn't need to have one universal target demographic, as that varies geographically. No one talks about the Romani in Canada. However, to suggest that systemic racism doesn't exist, or that there is a level playing-field, is a denial of reality.
 
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And I've met some black people in Canada who told me that they didn't experience much, or any, obvious racism. In Canada, First Nations people seem to bear the brunt of it and I saw lots of racism where I was born, notably from the police force and government, but also lots in the general population; I've also witnessed First Nations people being racist against caucausians, which is no better, but somewhat understandable given how they have been mistreated historically. But travel to the Southern USA and systemic racism against blacks is obvious in myriad ways, which is why affirmative action policies were put in place there. Racism doesn't need to have one universal target demographic, as that varies geographically. No one talks about the Romas in Canada. However, to suggest that systemic racism doesn't exist, or that there is a level playing-field, is a denial of reality.
One form of racism does not justify another form of racism. Eye for an eye is not a desirable outcome, there are better solutions on the table. As far as equal treatment under the law is concerned, it’s constitutionally guaranteed. Any violation of that principle should be pursued and eliminated. My stance on this is universal, everyone should be treated equally by the government - nobody gets a leg up or gets hamstrung, that’s the only way to form an equal and civil society.
 
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My country is 95% white Catholic and homogeneous, slavery is an alien concept to my nation as it did not pursue overseas conquests and did not participate in the slave trade. Black people were normally “gifted” to Polish nobility by foreign dignitaries, causing some confusion as to what to do with them besides giving them employment, education and lodge. For all intents and purposes they were liberated upon arrival. These black servants were treated considerably better than our own peasants in the Middle Ages, were free to travel, marry, own land and live as they pleased. Jan the III Sobieski’s best friend and most trusted butler was black, and he famously weeped after his death in Vienna at the hands of the Turks. They were always considered our “dark-skinned brothers” and due to their considerable “value” they were never tasked with hard labour, in stark contrast to other countries of the era. They usually worked as butlers, personal assistants or administrators. Some even raised to the rank of nobility themselves, or became various government officials.
Sounds like they were racist!
 

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Sounds like they were racist!
I understand that you’re being funny, but I’m just giving a little historical tidbit here. Since travelling back and forth Africa was a pricey endeavour that firstly required a considerable naval fleet and secondly was mostly the domain of Arabs, dark-skinned people were a bit of a curious oddity to most of the populace. Having someone like that on staff was considered a sign of status, high culture and considerable wealth, if anything. The only “systemic racism” Poles are familiar with en masse was the one leveraged against them under Nazi and Soviet occupation, and earlier under Prussia, Austria and Russia during the partitions, so I can’t say we’ve “benefitted” from it in any way - quite the opposite. Kind of odd to be a second class citizen in your own country for a considerable amount of time, but it is what it is.
 
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And I've met some black people in Canada who told me that they didn't experience much, or any, obvious racism. In Canada, First Nations people seem to bear the brunt of it and I saw lots of racism where I was born, notably from the police force and government, but also lots in the general population; I've also witnessed First Nations people being racist against caucausians, which is no better, but somewhat understandable given how they have been mistreated historically. But travel to the Southern USA and systemic racism against blacks is obvious in myriad ways, which is why affirmative action policies were put in place there. Racism doesn't need to have one universal target demographic, as that varies geographically. No one talks about the Romani in Canada. However, to suggest that systemic racism doesn't exist, or that there is a level playing-field, is a denial of reality.
For a systemic racism to exist, there has to be a law (the system) backing behavior.

And for that reason, you're out.
 

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For a systemic racism to exist, there has to be a law (the system) backing behavior.

And for that reason, you're out.
Um, so are you thinking that laws/policies/etc... have to explicitly spell out systemic racism for systemic racism to exist? Today's GOP is sophisticated enough (Trump et al. excluded) that they generally don't tout openly racist policies, yet racism plays a significant role behind many of them (as do homophobia, transphobia, etc...). Similarly, when Alito decided to strike down Roe v. Wade, he didn't cite his religious convictions directly (because that would not be legal), but rather employed specious motivated reasoning to rationalize those personal religious convictions in law. The game of racism in politics is generally played using dog whistles and other forms of subterfuge... meaning that to get to the truth, one must read between the lines, look at the various agendas, the history, and the evidence of disproportionate impact.
 

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For a systemic racism to exist, there has to be a law (the system) backing behavior.

And for that reason, you're out.
It doesn't have to be explicitly written into law for it to become the de facto policy with a wink and a nod, as has been the case within a number of Minnesota police departments.
 

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It doesn't have to be explicitly written into law for it to become the de facto policy with a wink and a nod, as has been the case within a number of Minnesota police departments.
Where I grew up, I don't think there was any law telling police officers to drop First Nations people off outside the city so they would freeze to death. But they did it anyway because racism was rampant in the police force. It was a "cultural practice" within the system rather than one codified in law.

Read up on the "Starlight Tours" here: https://gladue.usask.ca/node/2860
 
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WalterSlovotsky

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It doesn't have to be explicitly written into law for it to become the de facto policy with a wink and a nod, as has been the case within a number of Minnesota police departments.
Yes. It DOES. For it to be a SYSTEM of RACISM, i.e.: systemic racism, there must be an actual LAW in the SYSTEM that governs behavior.

As of now, systemic racism has finally been abolished. And that's a good thing for everyone.
 
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Where I grew up, I don't think there was any law telling police officers to drop First Nations people off outside the city so they would freeze to death. But they did it anyway because racism was rampant in the police force. It was a "cultural practice" within the system rather than one codified in law.

Read up on the "Starlight Tours" here: https://gladue.usask.ca/node/2860
In all fairness, Canadian “boarding schools” did indeed operate on government mandate. As for the tours, I’d have to look into it - it’s been a while since I completed Canadian Studies. Surely it’s in one of my notebooks, our prof was *really* into First Nations curriculum.
 

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In all fairness, Canadian “boarding schools” did indeed operate on government mandate. As for the tours, I’d have to look into it - it’s been a while since I completed Canadian Studies. Surely it’s in one of my notebooks, our prof was *really* into First Nations curriculum.
Oh.. the Residential Schools... run by the righteous Catholics with government support. Just a smidge of systemic racism and death.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/07/world/canada/mass-graves-residential-schools.html
 

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WalterSlovotsky

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Did any of you actually READ what Justice Thomas actually said in his concurrence, and his dissent against Justice Jackson?

Let me put it here for the folks who only read the headlines.
In his concurrence with the majority opinion, Thomas wrote that “Racialism simply cannot be undone by different or more racialism.”

“Instead, the solution announced in the second founding is incorporated in our Constitution: that we are all equal, and should be treated equally before the law without regard to our race,” he said. “Only that promise can allow us to look past our differing skin colors and identities and see each other for what we truly are: individuals with unique thoughts, perspectives, and goals, but with equal dignity and equal rights under the law.”

“Rather than focusing on individuals as individuals, her dissent focuses on the historical subjugation of black Americans, invoking statistical racial gaps to argue in favor of defining and categorizing individuals by their race,” he wrote. “As she sees things, we are all inexorably trapped in a fundamentally racist society, with the original sin of slavery and the historical subjugation of black Americans still determining our lives today. The panacea, she counsels, is to unquestioningly accede to the view of elite experts and reallocate society’s riches by racial means as necessary to ‘level the playing field,’ all as judged by racial metrics. I strongly disagree.”

First, as stated above, any statistical gaps between the average wealth of black and white Americans is constitutionally irrelevant. I, of course, agree that our society is not, and has never been, colorblind. Post, at 2 (JACKSON, J., dissenting); see also Plessy, 163 U. S., at 559 (Harlan, J., dissenting). People discriminate against one another for a whole host of reasons. But, under the Fourteenth Amendment, the law must disregard all racial distinctions:

“In view of the constitution, in the eye of the law, there is in this country no superior, dominant, ruling class of citizens. There is no caste here. Our constitution is color-blind, and neither knows nor tolerates classes among citizens. In respect of civil rights, all citizens are equal before the law. The humblest is the peer of the most powerful. The law regards man as man, and takes no account of his surroundings or of his color when his civil rights as guaranteed by the supreme law of the land are involved.”
Thomas noted that with the passage of the Fourteenth Amendment, “the people of our Nation proclaimed that the law may not sort citizens based on race. It is this principle that the Framers of the Fourteenth Amendment adopted in the wake of the Civil War to fulfill the promise of equality under the law. And it is this principle that has guaranteed a Nation of equal citizens the privileges or immunities of citizenship and the equal protection of the laws.”

Thomas continued:

Yet, Justice Jackson would replace the second Founders’ vision with an organizing principle based on race. In fact, on her view, almost all of life’s outcomes may be unhesitatingly ascribed to race. This is so, she writes, because of statistical disparities among different racial groups. Even if some whites have a lower household net worth than some blacks, what matters to Justice Jackson is that the average white household has more wealth than the average black household.

This lore is not and has never been true. Even in the segregated South where I grew up, individuals were not the sum of their skin color. Then as now, not all disparities are based on race; not all people are racist; and not all differences between individuals are ascribable to race. Put simply, “the fate of abstract categories of wealth statistics is not the same as the fate of a given set of flesh-and-blood human beings.” T. Sowell, Wealth, Poverty and Politics 333 (2016). Worse still, Justice Jackson uses her broad observations about statistical relationships between race and select measures of health, wealth, and well-being to label all blacks as victims. Her desire to do so is unfathomable to me. I cannot deny the great accomplishments of black Americans, including those who succeeded despite long odds.

Nor do Justice Jackson's statistics regarding a correlation between levels of health, wealth, and well-being between selected racial groups prove anything. Of course, none of those statistics are capable of drawing a direct causal link between race—rather than socioeconomic status or any other factor—and individual outcomes. So Justice Jackson supplies the link herself: the legacy of slavery and the nature of inherited wealth. This, she claims, locks blacks into a seemingly perpetual inferior caste. Such a view is irrational; it is an insult to individual achievement and cancerous to young minds seeking to push through barriers, rather than consign themselves to permanent victimhood. If an applicant has less financial means (because of generational inheritance or otherwise), then surely a university may take that into account. If an applicant has medical struggles or a family member with medical concerns, a university may consider that too. What it cannot do is use the applicant’s skin color as a heuristic, assuming that because the applicant checks the box for “black” he therefore conforms to the university’s monolithic and reductionist view of an abstract, average black person.

Accordingly, Justice Jackson’s race-infused world view falls flat at each step. Individuals are the sum of their unique experiences, challenges, and accomplishments. What matters is not the barriers they face, but how they choose to confront them. And their race is not to blame for everything—good or bad—that happens in their lives. A contrary, myopic world view based on individuals’ skin color to the total exclusion of their personal choices is nothing short of racial determinism.

Justice Jackson then builds from her faulty premise to call for action, arguing that courts should defer to “experts” and allow institutions to discriminate on the basis of race. Make no mistake: Her dissent is not a vanguard of the innocent and helpless. It is instead a call to empower privileged elites, who will “tell us [what] is required to level the playing field” among castes and classifications that they alone can divine. Then, after siloing us all into racial castes and pitting those castes against each other, the dissent somehow believes that we will be able—at some undefined point—to “march forward together” into some utopian vision. Social movements that invoke these sorts of rallying cries, historically, have ended disastrously.

Unsurprisingly, this tried-and-failed system defies both law and reason. Start with the obvious: If social reorganization in the name of equality may be justified by the mere fact of statistical disparities among racial groups, then that reorganization must continue until these disparities are fully eliminated, regardless of the reasons for the disparities and the cost of their elimination. If blacks fail a test at higher rates than their white counterparts (regardless of whether the reason for the disparity has anything at all to do with race), the only solution will be race-focused measures. If those measures were to result in blacks failing at yet higher rates, the only solution would be to double down. In fact, there would seem to be no logical limit to what the government may do to level the racial playing field—outright wealth transfers, quota systems, and racial preferences would all seem permissible. In such a system, it would not matter how many innocents suffer race-based injuries; all that would matter is reaching the race-based goal.

Worse, the classifications that Justice Jackson draws are themselves race-based stereotypes. She focuses on two hypothetical applicants, John and James, competing for admission to UNC. John is a white, seventh-generation legacy at the school, while James is black and would be the first in his family to attend UNC. Justice Jackson argues that race-conscious admission programs are necessary to adequately compare the two applicants. As an initial matter, it is not clear why James’s race is the only factor that could encourage UNC to admit him; his status as a first-generation college applicant seems to contextualize his application. But, setting that aside, why is it that John should be judged based on the actions of his great-great-great-grandparents? And what would JUSTICE JACKSON say to John when deeming him not as worthy of admission: Some statistically significant number of white people had advantages in college admissions seven generations ago, and you have inherited their incurable sin?

While articulating her black and white world (literally), Justice Jackson ignores the experiences of other immigrant groups and white communities that have faced historic barriers. Though Justice Jackson seems to think that her race-based theory can somehow benefit everyone, it is an immutable fact that “every time the government uses racial criteria to ‘bring the races together,’ someone gets excluded, and the person excluded suffers an injury solely because of his or her race.” Indeed, Justice Jackson seems to have no response—no explanation at all—for the people who will shoulder that burden. How, for example, would Justice Jackson explain the need for race-based preferences to the Chinese student who has worked hard his whole life, only to be denied college admission in part because of his skin color? If such a burden would seem difficult to impose on a bright-eyed young person, that’s because it should be. History has taught us to abhor theories that call for elites to pick racial winners and losers in the name of sociological experimentation. Nor is it clear what another few generations of race conscious college admissions may be expected to accomplish. Even today, affirmative action programs that offer an admissions boost to black and Hispanic students discriminate against those who identify themselves as members of other races that do not receive such preferential treatment.
 

Xzi

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It also undercuts SCOTUS' assertion that they're against systemic discrimination when they rule homphobia legal based on a fake legal case. Hard to find consistency in a court that rules more based on partisan politics than the constitution.

Yes. It DOES. For it to be a SYSTEM of RACISM, i.e.: systemic racism, there must be an actual LAW in the SYSTEM that governs behavior.

As of now, systemic racism has finally been abolished. And that's a good thing for everyone.
If a system is racist, it's inflicting systemic racism on people. It ultimately does not matter whether all the people who comprise that system were racist beforehand, slowly became that way one-by-one, or were explicitly told to think and act that way by their leadership. The result is the exact same.
 

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It also undercuts SCOTUS' assertion that they're against systemic discrimination when they rule homphobia legal based on a fake legal case. Hard to find consistency in a court that rules more based on partisan politics than the constitution.


If a system is racist, it's inflicting systemic racism on people. It ultimately does not matter whether all the people who comprise that system were racist beforehand, slowly became that way one-by-one, or were explicitly told to think and act that way by their leadership. The result is the exact same.
The system is the law. Now there are no laws that provide an advantage to anyone based on race. This is a good thing.
 

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The system is the law. Now there are no laws that provide an advantage to anyone based on race. This is a good thing.
A government is a system of governance. A police department is a system of law enforcement. Laws themselves are not "THE system," only one part of it. They also mean fuck all when people in positions of power decide to ignore them and aren't held accountable afterward.
 
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