Scientists Find Protein That Blocks HIV, Ebola, and More

[Rydian]

You realize the main things we're vaccinating for died out years ago, right?

You realize the reason these things stay dead is because infants are vaccinated for them, right?

Like how "smallpox" is "wiped out"? Except it's not, it flares up every now and then in third-world countries where they can't afford to vaccinate their kids to prevent the problem.

the "pro-vaxxers" have no concrete evidence that they don't...

Somebody slept through science class...

 

[the_randomizer]

You realize the reason these things stay dead is because infants are vaccinated for them, right?

Like how "smallpox" is "wiped out"? Except it's not, it flares up every now and then in third-world countries where they can't afford to vaccinate their kids to prevent the problem.

Somebody slept through science class...

Exactly, there is no irrefutable evidence that vaccinations create problems in people who get them. And to anyone who says it gives children Downs Syndrome needs to have their brain examined.

 

[Bladexdsl]

a thread about a possible break-thru and it turns into a debate about vaccinations...NICE ONE TEMP!

 

[Gahars]

a thread about a possible break-thru and it turns into a debate about vaccinations...NICE ONE TEMP!

Unfortunately, there's no vaccination against "Off topicitis".

 

[Densetsu]

Keep this thread on-topic, please.

@Gahars: This looks promising. One of my peers was working on similar research for his MDDR (MD with distinction in research) and the premise was similar.

@ any anti-vaccine people: Start another thread about how vaccines are evil, so I can enter it and pwn you. I'm a medical student. If you're going to tell me vaccines don't work, you'd better bring it.

 

[Wolvenreign]

I will begin by saying that every argument or discussion, regardless of it's medium, always carries the potential for education, for anyone involved. People shouldn't be discouraged from discussing things on the internet simply because it feels hopeless. It never has to be hopeless, as long as everyone involved is willing to learn something. The desire to be correct rather than to merely take a stance and grab supporting arguments is the basis for rationality.

With that being said, let us discuss this widely-impactful topic with the rationality and reason it deserves.

As Gahars has already mentioned, Wrettcaughn, it seems you have committed a logical fallacy known as "Shifting The Burden of Proof". You see, when you make a positive claim, such as "vaccines have the potential to harm", it is up to you to provide evidence to persuade towards your claim. It is not up to your opponent to provide proof that you are incorrect. Allow me to illustrate why this is.

Person A: "Grass is made of bacon."
Person B: "What? But why? How?"
Person A: "I guess you'll have to prove me wrong."

As you can see, this is illogical. Shifting the burden of proof can only work in a universe in which all claims are equally correct, which is not the reality of the universe we exist in now, for much the same reason that x/0 does not equal infinite; all numbers do not have the same value.

In addition, you must understand that extraordinary claims, such as those made by alternative (or, I should say, pseudoscientific) medicine, require extraordinary evidence. For example, the claim that grass is made of bacon would have to include comparisons of grass material to pig flesh material, and a precise match within those observations, adjusting for pan frying, of course.

Gahars also mentioned a point I would like to back up. Wikis are tools, but they require the same sourcing as any other academic paper. You can research the "footnotes" section to provide the crucial evidence behind each statement, which is partially what makes wikis such powerful tools for spreading knowledge.

Wrettcaughn, I hope you continue to have a fierce and undying curiosity about this world. It will lead you to wonderous places beyond imagination, and the more you know, the more you can create with that knowledge. Proper discipline when discerning the truth will help you with that goal. I suggest you start here. LessWrong is a wonderful website that will help you understand the fine art of rationality and learning, and even understanding more about the creature you are and your ability to comprehend the world around you. Have a look, aye?

(Note: The above was NOT sarcastic.)

 

[retKHAAAN]

The fact that those in the Anti-Vaccination Movement can't get evidence despite the widespread use of vaccinations for decades now is pretty persuasive. The burden of proof lies with them in this case, and they've failed to deliver time and time again (or when they do deliver, it's complete and total bunk).

The fact that the vaccines are in use, on the other hand, is pretty strong evidence that they're safe - vaccines are subject to extremely strict, closely monitored FDA testing. If there was a serious a serious threat, don't you think they (or a foreign equivalent) would've picked up on it after decades upon decades of study?

In the meantime, they spread hysteria over something with their unsubstantiated claims. We're seeing ailments previously thought to be dead (like whooping cough, for God's sake) on the rise again because people buy into the movement. People are getting sick and, in some cases, dying because of this; that is completely unacceptable.

(As for your "It's a wiki, so it must be true" bit - you do realize that their claims are all cited from legitimate sources, right? That you could read up on? They're pretty damn strict about that.)

Do you have children? I have a 22 month old son who was born with heart complications. Once we were out of the hospital and home we had a happy baby. We went to the pediatrician for our scheduled visits. One day, we're waiting in the room for the doctor and a nurse comes in and sticks him with a needle without saying a word to my wife or I. We asked what the hell she just gave him. She said his first round of immunizations. We were pissed because it was something we hadn't yet decided on and this lady just walks in and sticks our kid...

For the next month (yes, month) our son was lethargic, didn't sleep, was very ornery, and had an elevated heartrate. We knew his heartrate was elevated because we monitored it 5 times a day from his birth through his first birthday. This child was miserable. We called the pediatrician's office only to hear, "It's normal...It's normal". Well, we have a child with a heart condition, we don't want this "normal" side-effect... After a month he's mostly settled but now it's time for his next round. We went to the pediatrician for his check-up and told them we wanted to wait and space these out more. They told us if they weren't allowed to do it on their schedule they would no longer see him. We told them to fuck off and switched doctors.

Now look at the recalls these past few years of vaccines because of mislabeled containers, metal flakes in the glass/plastic container, foreign objects... Is that a chance you're willing to take on your kid? "Well they say it's safe... But the medical community as a whole is minutely conflicted about it... And they have broken down and said that vaccines could exacerbate some "pre-existing conditions"... But we have no idea if our kid has any of these "pre-existing conditions"... Well, what the hell; what's the worst that can happen..."

Call it hysteria all you want, but these are people fearing for their children regarding science that is not 100%.

@Densetsu
Nowhere did I say that vaccines don't work. Is everything that's in them completely necessary though? Why not package them all in individual doses rather than multidose containers?

*snip*

Glad the old video game bug logic works here too... "If it didn't happen to me it couldn't have happened to anyone!"
Great job on the namecalling too! Can always rely on the_randomizer to press things just a little bit too far

 

[Wolvenreign]

Do you have children? I have a 22 month old son who was born with heart complications. Once we were out of the hospital and home we had a happy baby. We went to the pediatrician for our scheduled visits. One day, we're waiting in the room for the doctor and a nurse comes in and sticks him with a needle without saying a word to my wife or I. We asked what the hell she just gave him. She said his first round of immunizations. We were pissed because it was something we hadn't yet decided on and this lady just walks in and sticks our kid...

For the next month (yes, month) our son was lethargic, didn't sleep, was very ornery, and had an elevated heartrate. We knew his heartrate was elevated because we monitored it 5 times a day from his birth through his first birthday. This child was miserable. We called the pediatrician's office only to hear, "It's normal...It's normal". Well, we have a child with a heart condition, we don't want this "normal" side-effect... After a month he's mostly settled but now it's time for his next round. We went to the pediatrician for his check-up and told them we wanted to wait and space these out more. They told us if they weren't allowed to do it on their schedule they would no longer see him. We told them to fuck off and switched doctors.

Now look at the recalls these past few years of vaccines because of mislabeled containers, metal flakes in the glass/plastic container, foreign objects... Is that a chance you're willing to take on your kid? "Well they say it's safe... But the medical community as a whole is minutely conflicted about it... And they have broken down and said that vaccines could exacerbate some "pre-existing conditions"... But we have no idea if our kid has any of these "pre-existing conditions"... Well, what the hell; what's the worst that can happen..."

Call it hysteria all you want, but these are people fearing for their children regarding science that is not 100%.

@Densetsu
Nowhere did I say that vaccines don't work. Is everything that's in them completely necessary though? Why not package them all in individual doses rather than multidose containers?

Wrettcaughn, what you are using here is something known as "anecdotal evidence". It is, essentially, when you take a brief story and use it for or against any given claim as evidence. It is generally not accepted as evidence within scientific circles because it was only observed from one perception (which is very often susceptible to warping data due to the individual's beliefs and even more often susceptible to the "correlation is causation" fallacy), the results are not repeatable, and thus it's application is often nil. Scientific evidence relies on something known as "empiricism", which, to put it briefly, compiles data from many, many different experiments (which have the standard of being double-blind and peer-reviewed).

Again, I certainly hope you give those articles a thorough read-through. It really pays to learn rationality, in many ways.

Oh, and about your claim about mislabeled containers, metal flakes, foreign objects, etc, keep in mind that as long as people are handling anything at all, there will always be risk, but the risk will be minimized as much as possible by further automation and procedures. Even surgery is being more and more automated so less and less mistakes will be made.

 

[retKHAAAN]

Wrettcaughn, what you are using here is something known as "anecdotal evidence". It is, essentially, when you take a brief story and use it for or against any given claim as evidence. It is generally not accepted as evidence within scientific circles because it was only observed from one perception (which is very often susceptible to warping data due to the individual's beliefs and even more often susceptible to the "correlation is causation" fallacy), the results are not repeatable, and thus it's application is often nil. Scientific evidence relies on something known as "empiricism", which, to put it briefly, compiles data from many, many different experiments (which have the standard of being double-blind and peer-reviewed).

Again, I certainly hope you give those articles a thorough read-through. It really pays to learn rationality, in many ways.

While I disagree that sampling 0.000001% of a single country's population when testing these vaccines is any less anecdotal than a single family's personal experience, I appreciate that you're gentlemanly in your posts. Many of the kids here have no clue at all what it's like to be responsible for a life other than their own...

And seriously, I never meant to derail the thread. A STAFF member took an underhanded swipe at people who doubt the 100% safety of vaccines...

 

[Gahars]

Why don't we move the discussion somewhere else?

 

[Wolvenreign]

The fact is, Wrettcaughn, a larger sample size than one with a double-blind peer reviewed standard is still more empirical than a simple story. Indeed, where did you get that particular bit of information? Perhaps I can have a look at it.

In addition, do you not think it presumptuous to assume that these other members do not know what it means to care about life outside of their own? Perhaps many of them are parents, or have had little brothers or sisters. And, indeed, when you attack someone based on their person rather than their stance, you are committing another logical fallacy known as ad hominem.

Fear is a powerful enemy. It is one which clouds judgement and causes mistrust outside of your own level of thinking and observation. It stops people from understanding that accurate knowledge isn't always intuitive. Indeed, most of the time it isn't. We are, after all, creatures of evolution, which always takes the path of least resistance as surely as gravity causes objects to plummet to the earth. There is nothing supernatural about our comprehension which allows us to divine the truth. Even science is fundamentally unsure of itself, yet it is the most probable and demonstrable path to understanding the world as it is.

To those who would read this, I would say; don't be afraid. Be curious. Doubt is your friend, even doubting your own way of thinking can be used to improve it.

 

[narutofan777]

I hope this will be available in the next few years.

 

[FAST6191]

A STAFF member took an underhanded swipe at people who doubt the 100% safety of vaccines...

I take it that one was for me rather than Densetsu or another.

So many things to take umbrage with but "[those] who doubt the 100% safety of vaccines" will be the only one right now..... not only did I never say that, I would never say that; 100% and science are not best friends but, more importantly, I know there to be all sorts of potential complications in this very subject and arguing otherwise is all kinds of unscientific.

If you want a swipe then "ha- like I can treat anti vaccination types, as they are typically defined, with any less disdain than that which is reserved for intelligent design types".

 

[Rydian]

A STAFF member took an underhanded swipe at people who doubt the 100% safety of vaccines...

Just because you're staff doesn't mean you're not allowed to point out dumbassery.

If you don't even know why one flu vaccine doesn't stop another flu infection, it's because you have 0 knowledge about medicine and infections in general, which is why few people here are even putting forth the effort to respond to you.

This is shit you SHOULD have learned in school years ago. What's next, the earth is flat?

 

[retKHAAAN]

I take it that one was for me rather than Densetsu or another.

So many things to take umbrage with but "[those] who doubt the 100% safety of vaccines" will be the only one right now..... not only did I never say that, I would never say that; 100% and science are not best friends but, more importantly, I know there to be all sorts of potential complications in this very subject and arguing otherwise is all kinds of unscientific.

If you want a swipe then "ha- like I can treat anti vaccination types, as they are typically defined, with any less disdain than that which is reserved for intelligent design types".

Just because you're staff doesn't mean you're not allowed to point out dumbassery.

If you don't even know why one flu vaccine doesn't stop another flu infection, it's because you have 0 knowledge about medicine and infections in general, which is why few people here are even putting forth the effort to respond to you.

This is shit you SHOULD have learned in school years ago. What's next, the earth is flat?

If you want to attack me personally or make assumptions regarding my education/opinions, kindly do so in the thread Gahars linked above where adults are having an adult conversation. Otherwise, stfu and mind your business...

 

[RedCoreZero]

Lesson learned,don't be a beastily.

 

[Rydian]

If you want to attack me personally or make assumptions regarding my education/opinions, kindly do so in the thread Gahars linked above where adults are having an adult conversation. Otherwise, stfu and mind your business...

So you go ahead and post after the mod's warning, but it's wrong for other people to?

And unless you didn't notice my earlier post, I was already involved in the discussion, so it's not somebody else's business when it escalated.

But sure, I'll let it continue in the other thread, way too lazy.

 

[Densetsu]

A STAFF member took an underhanded swipe at people who doubt the 100% safety of vaccines...

I take it that one was for me rather than Densetsu or another.

If that comment was directed at me, I never singled you out, nor did I ever say that vaccines are 100% safe. When I said I was going to "pwn" someone, I was thinking more along the lines of talking some sense into irrational Jenny McCarthy-types. I still stand by the notion that the benefits outweigh the risks, as with other prescription drugs. Granted, sometimes the benefits only marginally outweigh the risks, but at that point it's up to the discretion of the patient and the doctor. They work together to figure out what their expectations are for treatment, what kind of quality of life they want, etc.

But yeah, over here everyone, please.

 

[cracker]

I am probably going to go with "haha vindication at last that the pharmacology industry big pharma has been trying to screw us all by making all their money preventing diseases and more lucratively treating symtoms of chronic diseases indefinitely".

 

[notmeanymore]

Uh, oh yeah, pun quota. Um... something something One Flu Over the Cuckoo's Nest something something HIV For Vendetta something something E-bro-la! something something This is so cool, it's sick!

Alright, that should do it.

I think Gahars just broke the fourth wall.