1. alexander1970

    OP alexander1970 Wuff Wuff.
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    ...or the Human Society is too stupid and has nothing learned ?


    https://orf.at/stories/3161688/

    Shops open under strict conditions

    Most shops in the country have been closed since mid-March.
    On Tuesday there will be a first easing and further business may open.
    However, there will also be new editions.

    So far, supermarkets, pharmacies, drugstores, pet stores, banks, post offices, cleaning companies and petrol stations have been able to keep them open. On Tuesday, according to the decree of Health Minister Rudolf Anschober (green) car and bicycle workshops, petrol station car washes, building materials, iron and wood trade, pawn shops and trade in precious metals, DIY and garden centers (regardless of size) and smaller dealers - from opticians to cell phone shops to clothing and shoe stores - with a customer area of less than 400 square meters. According to the Chamber of Commerce, around 4,600 shops are allowed to open in Vienna alone - more on wien.ORF.at.

    Opening times are limited to 7.40 a.m. to 7 p.m. Retailers who let too many customers into the restaurant have to pay up to 3,600 euros. Large dealers who are not covered by the regulation and open early can be fined up to 30,000 euros. Large outlets in shopping centers, furniture stores and hairdressing salons remain closed. The hotel and hospitality industries also have to wait.

    Mask and spacing requirements

    As before, the usual minimum distance of one meter applies. Shops up to 400 square meters, which are now allowed to open, must ensure that there is only one customer per 20 square meters. That means, especially in the case of smaller shops or even when there is a high level of demand, customers have to be asked to wait outside until another customer comes out. This has previously been the case in pharmacies, for example.

    In addition, there is a general obligation to wear a mask when shopping. Alternatively, a scarf or another “barrier against droplet infection” can be pulled over the mouth and nose. Until now, mouth-nose masks or similar only had to be worn when shopping in supermarkets, from Tuesday this applies to all shops for sellers and customers. The shops do not have to provide protective masks.
    Trade laments billions in losses

    While virologists are warning that previous successes in the fight against coronavirus could be destroyed by opening stores early, the economy sees a little light at the end of the tunnel. According to a study by the consultancy company Standort + Markt together with the Johannes Kepler University in Linz, retailers lose two to three billion euros per month of closure due to the barriers. The industry-related think tank Agenda Austria even expects retailers to lose 6.7 billion euros last month.
    Regulation for "public transport", taxis and carpooling

    From Tuesday after Easter, passengers on public transport and taxi passengers, as well as at travel agents such as Uber, must cover their mouths and noses with a mask or scarf. The only exceptions are children up to the age of six. In addition, a distance of at least one meter from other passengers must also be maintained in train stations and "public transport" stations.

    There is also a new regulation for carpooling between people who do not live in the same household: These are only permitted with a mask and a meter apart. According to the regulation, a mask requirement at the workplace requires agreement between employer and employee - provided the protective masks are not already prescribed (as is the case in trade).
    Police can issue parking tickets

    Since Saturday, the police have also been allowed to carry out checks at the "public transport" and in shops, and to collect fines with an administrative fine. Anyone who does not comply with the obligation to wear a mask faces a fine of 25 euros. Incidentally, for all other violations, 50 euros are due. This affects non-compliance with exit restrictions, such as entering quarantined areas or actually closed shops

    “Entering public places” remains prohibited. In addition to the five exceptions - emergency, care and help, covering the basic needs of daily life, work and exercise outdoors alone or with roommates - there is now shopping or the use of those services that may already be offered again.
    Open federal gardens

    With the start of the easing of measures, the 230 of a total of around 12,500 hectares of publicly accessible green spaces in Vienna can be re-entered (to understand: one hectare corresponds to 10,000 square meters). The two percent missing so far are the five federal gardens in Vienna. In front of the long-awaited entrance in Schönbrunn or Augarten, there is still an admission check for potential visitors: This is to prevent overcrowding.

    And finally, the regulation also stipulates that weddings (and, as before, funerals) are also considered a “necessary basic need” and therefore justify an exception to the general ban on going out. But both only in the "narrow family circle".
    Anschober: "decisive phase"

    With the start of the gradual ramp-up of trading on Tuesday, the second stage in the fight against the corona virus began, Anschober said on Monday. He called for the first partial opening to be "moderate and responsible". It is a "decisive phase" that will only show whether the gradual opening can be continued.

    "We passed the first phase of the Corona crisis well and achieved our goal of flattening out the high number of new cases with the right measures at the right time and great commitment by the population." The second stage, which begins on Tuesday, will be significantly more difficult According to Anschober: "Despite the gradual opening, we have to keep the number of new cases at a low level." Right now, "everyone has to be part of the solution".

    "I urge you to consistently follow all security measures for the first partial opening: strict adherence to the access rules in the shops, minimum distance when waiting for admission, wearing mouth-nose protection in shops and minimum distance and mouth-nose protection also in public transport The health minister said. If you don't have to shop, you should wait a few more days to avoid large crowds, especially the older ones.

    Open letter from Kurz for Easter

    Chancellor Sebastian Kurz (ÖVP) thanked the Austrian population in an open letter for Easter. "So far Austria has come through this crisis better than many other countries and the reason for it is all of them," said Kurz. At the same time, however, he pointed out that the corona virus would "accompany us for months to come".

    It would be "wrong to believe that the virus has been defeated," said the Chancellor in the letter, which is addressed to the "Austrians". Until an effective drug or vaccination is found, the virus will accompany the everyday life of the population - "with successes and setbacks". "Until then, we will do everything we can to gradually approach a new normal," writes the Chancellor. Kurz promised that the federal government would proceed with the "right measure": "With as much freedom as possible, but also as much restriction as necessary."

    The measures taken would "demand a lot from us". But the way is "necessary" to prevent "the worst". “Four out of five people infected with corona have no symptoms and therefore do not know that they are sick. However, you can still infect other people for whom the disease may be fatal. That is one reason why the virus is so dangerous for our society. "
    Kogler dampens expectations

    Vice Chancellor Werner Kogler (Greens) was not optimistic about the duration. It could take a long time for medication or a vaccine to be available, and only then would the situation change suddenly, he told Die Kleine Zeitung. He could "not imagine" that the baths would open in early May. Festivals and major concerts in summer are also difficult to imagine.

    Kogler also dampened expectations for tourism: because almost every entry and exit is associated with two-week quarantine. "It is hard for me to imagine that a tourist goes into quarantine for two weeks before the real vacation begins," said Kogler of the "Kleine Zeitung".
    Kaiser is considering differentiated startup

    The Carinthian governor Peter Kaiser (SPÖ) wants to discuss with the other country heads a differentiated start-up to the usual business. Specifically, something like normal operation could be started earlier in countries, districts or cities with a few infected people in order to then take the experience for other regions with them. Carinthia could be a pioneer.

    "First of all, it is an approach that still needs to be discussed with the other governors," Kaiser told media in a video conference on Monday. Carinthia did not want to proceed "solo" - but he wanted to discuss the proposal. In any case, it is also important that things have to get better everywhere, including abroad
     
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  2. Veho

    Veho The man who cried "Ni".
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    There's nothing wrong with letting businesses that can adhere to safety precautions reopen and work. Some places can't employ or enforce protective measures, but stores should be fine.

    Are you sure the minimum distance is only one meter? Most countries have it at 2 meters (or 6 feet). One meter is practically breathing down the other person's neck.
     
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  3. alexander1970

    OP alexander1970 Wuff Wuff.
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    I fear they all not know what IS the correct Distance actual....we have mostly "Suggestions" not really "Regulations" in many Cases...:rofl2:
    What is a Regulation,what a Suggestion...this goes now 3 Weeks.... nobody really knows which Actions can be punished or not...:yay:

    And in this constant "Chaos" (Gouverment call it "very well organized") we open now more Shops.....
    Congratulations and welcome to the second Virus Wave.....:D
    (By the Way,there is actual still a lack of Mouth Masks..)

    Can you imagine what is going on tomorrow in the Hardware Stores ?:huh:
    The same like before 3-4 Week in the Grocery Stores..
    They will kill each other in the fight for the last Violet.:rofl2:

    And the Survivors will kill itself then at home,because of no "Practice" in "Home Improvement" after the last 4 Weeks.....all small Tim Taylor´s.:D

    You know me as very positive Guy....and I still believe all is getting good with Time.:)


    But open more Shops now is a little to early....
     
    Last edited by alexander1970, Apr 13, 2020
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  4. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    You open shops back up, you monitor increases in new infection rates (or in severe infections rates (if these are the only ones you can test at current capacity)), you react accordingly.

    Social distancing and early individualized quarantines (thats the App warning model) are the methods for containment.

    Shutting down life is suppression (preventing case numbers from exploding acutely).

    You want progression of the virus, but with a lower 'dynamic'.

    If lets say your entire country is 'mostly cured' - but at a case infection rate like Austria of 1% of population - nothing much is gained, because the pandemic can break out again tomorrow.

    Nationwide shutdowns are what you should implement about a week before your medical system is close to peak capacity. If your target is saving as many people as possible.
     
    Last edited by notimp, Apr 13, 2020
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  5. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    For Austria (but interesting for everyone), those are the current numbers:
    [​IMG]
    src: https://www.derstandard.at/story/2000115810293/aktuelle-zahlen-zum-coronavirus

    Thats rate of new infections in Austria. (y axis on the right you have case rate doubling in days (log scale))

    1,6% growth rate per day means cases double in 44 days.

    40% growth rate per day means cases double in 2 days.

    One you can manage - the other one you can not. :) (You could manage growth rates of about 7% daily for up to three months. Without harsh interventions.)

    Here is the issue translated to months:

    If you have 100 deaths. At an exponential growthrate of 5% every day, after 3 months you have 8000 deaths. After four months you have 35000 deaths.

    So you'd shut the economy down again somewhere around month three.. ;) If that rate remained constant.

    But the idea of social distancing measures is to stop exponential progression (one person infecting three others), or at least slow down case doubling rate (new infections) significantly.

    edit: Also - we dont know if the exponential growth rate we saw (+40% new infections every day) is strongly dependent a high initial case rate in the entire population (1% in Austria also is just an extrapolation.).

    So wait and see, and monitor.
     
    Last edited by notimp, Apr 13, 2020
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  6. Pacheko17

    Pacheko17 MAD SCIENTIST
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    In my state here in Brazil, all non-essential businesses are still closed, public transport isn't open, and if you're caught on the street without a mask you're fine upwards of R$30.000 (5.7k US dollars)
     
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  7. alexander1970

    OP alexander1970 Wuff Wuff.
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    Yes one Month....but is was not a Month.Only three Weeks.:evil:
    But anyway ... it doesn't matter to the Population anymore, they do not remember when it started anyway.:D
    (Remember my Post about "vanishing" Articles... ?) :D

    It is very clear to see,the "Economy" makes pressure to re-open the "Economy".:D
    How is it explainable,a week ago the Goverment "set" they will not "lower" Restrictions until the End of April and further...

    In the Meantime - The Grocery Stores and their Managements praises the incredibly high Sales....

    And suddenly......The hardware stores,which were already doing badly before the Corona Crisis are haveing their "Grand opening" tomorrow...:toot:

    Pawnbrokers and trading in precious metals? What the Hell is this all about ?
    You see.....no coincidence.:D
     
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  8. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    What this is all about is business ventures that are at risk of having to let go of many of their workers (ones that can make a credible claim), where this would lead to a bigger structural problem are slowly getting exemptions, even before you go into a wider retraction of quarantine. :)

    As long as it is the pawnbroakers and hardware stores, I'd not blame an important business lobby being behind that. ;)

    That seems more like a 'relief' measure for certain businesses - maybe even to relax psychological strain ("what happened to the thing I pawned" and hardware stores being essential to many peoples 'leisure projects'" ;) ). I'm saying this half jokingly, because I really dont know whats behind that decision exactly (also if thats the case (first time I heard that hardware stores are about to open again)), but lets say it doesnt seem nefarious, or the result of industry pressure (there are bigger industry interest groups than for hardware stores).

    Of course I could be wrong. ;)

    Main point being - if that graph above is a metric the government looks at to guide decisions, relaxing curfew restrictions on some small and medium size businesses seems justifiable. ;)

    The whole thing is a learning process anyhow (see how well social distancing works, ...).

    Also you are balancing against people starting to protest social isolation and stuff like that. Ergo, political decision.

    edit: Fine in Austria for not wearing a facemask is about 25 USD btw. ;)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Apr 14, 2020
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  9. alexander1970

    OP alexander1970 Wuff Wuff.
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    The Chamber of Commerce now called for a quick opening for everyone, earlier than planned....

    https://steiermark.orf.at/stories/3043918/

    Chamber of Commerce calls for earlier opening for everyone

    For the first time in four weeks, smaller shops, DIY stores and garden centers opened again on Tuesday under strict conditions. The Chamber of Commerce is now calling for a quick opening for everyone, earlier than planned.

    More to say ?
     
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  10. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    Now thats lobbying. ;)
     
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  11. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    Issue - to only open smaller shops for a while is not constitutional either. :)

    See: https://www.derstandard.at/story/2000116849288/covid-19-bekaempfung-getretene-grundrechte (german)

    Other constitutional missteps so far: Suspending of compensation rights (there will be compensation, just not in adherence with prior law), certain entry and movement restrictions. No recourse for forced quarantines we already talked about.

    Schnauder is a business section reporter of derstandard (center left newspaper), so not a business 'lobbyist'.
     
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  12. WarioWaffles

    WarioWaffles GBAtemp Regular
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    Is that for real?? 6 grand fine for being outside without a mask? Where can people even get masks these days.
     
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  13. Pacheko17

    Pacheko17 MAD SCIENTIST
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    It's for real and it's justified. You can get masks literally everywhere, supermarkets or pharmacies, they're everywhere.
     
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  14. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    Depending on your region.

    (Actually mostly on how rich your country is and how good its political relations witch china are. ;)
    US has lost the monopoly of 'helping other countries in times of crisis' on this one - everyone is looking to china (goods production), and they are using that politically as well.. ;) )

    But yes - in all countries where masks are mandatory in daily life - they HAVE to be handed out for free, in mass quantities, or the entire strategy doesnt work.

    Strategy for those masks isnt individual protection (as with N95 grade masks), but slowing down spread, without having to rely on curfews (reopening your society and economy) - so its more about you protecting others, than you protecting yourself. Also it only works well, if literally close to everyone has to use them, and has access to them almost for free. Because if poorer people cant - they cant protect others and little is gained.

    So there never will be a case where a government will be making masks mandatory, but people wouldnt get them for free (or very cheap (think 1 US dollar) - this is mostly used if you see people throwing them away 'because they were free' so you have them pay for them - and their relationship with the product changes.. ;) ).

    edit: Also (non N95(+), cloth) masks can be washed and then reused. 60°C (140° Fahrenheit) should be enough, use laundry detergent as well. ;) You wash them as soon as you are done wearing them.

    Ideally masks also shouldnt be worn for more than 30 minutes (thats something not to get obsessive about.. ;) ), because as they become damp by your breathing through them for a long time, they loose some of their effectiveness.

    Also - they work wonderfully as a signal to others to keep a 5 feet distance.. ;)
    [​IMG]

    Why you want to keep 5 feet distance has to do with mucus partical (/virus) behavior in air - see:

    (But this is REALLY nerding out. ;) You dont need to get into this one... ;) )
     
    Last edited by notimp, Apr 22, 2020
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  15. UltraSUPRA

    UltraSUPRA Permabanned from Scratch
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    Hospitals are prepared. The only way for the Coronavirus to stop is to let a large enough amount of people to get it and get over it so that so few people are vulnerable that there's less than a .1% chance of another spike.
     
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  16. WarioWaffles

    WarioWaffles GBAtemp Regular
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    That's assuming that antibodies are strong and persistent, and assuming that the virus doesn't mutate enough to make the antibodies of a recovered person useless.
     
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  17. alexander1970

    OP alexander1970 Wuff Wuff.
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    Well,that was not so a great Idea from Chancellor Kurz....



    The Reaction from Politics,Cultural Department and from the Austrian Population was not great......:rolleyes:
     
  18. alexander1970

    OP alexander1970 Wuff Wuff.
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    After Kurz´s Faux pas the next Politican...
    This Time our Big Boss....

    But, we the rabble, should please adhere to the rules .....

    https://wien.orf.at/stories/3050109/

    Van der Bellen after CoV curfew in local

    Federal President Alexander Van der Bellen and his wife Doris Schmidauer were caught by police at night almost one and a half hours after the prescribed Corona Virus curfew in the garden of an Italian pub in the city center.

    The Vienna police confirmed a corresponding report on Krone.at on Sunday afternoon. According to the report, the two prominent guests also had drinks on the table during the routine police check-up at 0.18 a.m. - which, according to Covid 19 law, is prohibited after 11 p.m.

    This could have expensive consequences for the host. For violations of the Covid 19 measure laws, restaurateurs - for example, keeping open after 11:00 p.m. - are subject to a fine of up to 30,000 euros. Officially, the restaurant was already closed at this point.
    "I chatted away"

    Police spokesman Patrick Maierhofer confirmed the operation on Sunday. "Media reports confirming that one of the people found in the sidewalk garden of a bar in downtown Vienna is the Federal President." A report regarding the facts had been written and forwarded to the responsible magistrate for legal assessment.

    Van der Bellen himself admitted the mistake and was remorseful on Sunday. "I went out to eat for the first time since the 'lock-down' with two friends and my wife. We then chatted and unfortunately missed the time, ”he apologized. "I am truly sorry. It was a mistake, ”said Van der Bellen.
    Critique by FPÖ

    The FPÖ has no understanding of the President's nightly visit to the garden. "In this way, the head of state mocks the population, who is severely plagued by the government's corona madness, who adheres to the black and green rules, no matter how nonsensical," FPÖ general secretary Michael Schnedlitz said in a press release.



    Why only the Landlord get Consequences ??????

    Not funny anymore.....
     
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  19. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    No, dont go that route, please. :)

    For people to ignore social distancing rules - any concept is more likely than 'I'm famous or important, so it doesnt apply to me'. If you are that rational or that much in search of an excuse for your behavior or wants, question the authority principal that makes you think that way first.

    And by that I dont mean 'but higher up guy or gal dit it wrong also, so I dont have to believe in it either', because thats a lemmings style dichotomy. (One thing, or the other = dichotomy). You feeling morally better, because they didnt behave according to some values.

    Learn to break some rules yourself. (Start small. ;) )

    The easiest way out of that dilemma is to acknowledge, that all rules are there to be broken, but at the same time also serve a purpose. Dont get ruled by Dogma ("'tis is so"), have fun exploring that anything in excess becomes problematic, just the same as imposing too many restrictions on stuff does.


    Here is an aspect I find really problematic (but not overly so.. ;) ), having an interior minister, that lies to people, that they only are allowed to go outside for four or five specific reasons - leaving out that 'going outside, when you need to vent, or just a stroll in the park' never was prohibited. Society just said, please reduce it overall.

    So if you make up rules that are not enforceable, that arent covered by your legal system, just so you can appear like a good autocratic leader in public, so the pubic might fall in love with you asserting dominance - then you need to vanish from the top positions in government.

    If you go against rules you yourself helped impose, thats only human.. ;)


    Which by the way is part of why we leave the 'private sphere' out of politics. If 'acting as an example' value signaling becomes too looked after, you end up with SJW societies.. Or an NSA spying on then entire world including americans, or...

    Every politician lies at times, every politician supposedly acts in their self interest at times, and every politician acts irrational at times. Dont hang them for not being rolemodels that never do.

    In fact, if you never bend rules that way, get out of any higher office, or higher management, because the 'puritan' ethos also comes with a bunch of drawbacks.


    In the case of Kurz another aspect was attacked by the opposition, and that is that Kurz exhibited that behavior during an election campaign event. So it is pretty obvious, that much of that was 'planned' to generate a certain outcome (f.e. public adoration), conflicting with the general ruleset they gave out during corona, for a political benefit. You can criticize that.

    VdB currently is not looking for votes in that sense. So when he ignores some rules, it should fall under 'private behavior' in this case and should be exempt from political criticism.

    If police had cought anyone else in that situation, they wouldnt have arrested them either. (Important for the argument I'm making.)
     
    Last edited by notimp, May 24, 2020
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  20. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    Drawback of puritan ethos at 8min58sec in this video:

    ;)
     
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