Religion. The Last Debate

[DiscostewSM]

Speaking of proof that God exists, what about proof that God does not exist? Can mankind explain everything? If not, then how can one prove that God does or does not exist?

 

[TrolleyDave]

Speaking of proof that God exists, what about proof that God does not exist? Can mankind explain everything? If not, then how can one prove that God does or does not exist?

And hence why a debate over the existence of God will forever go on as the existence or non-existence of an incomprehensible higher power is unwinnable. The better thing to do is debate whether or not the religious tomes are actually the work of forward thinking philosophers but still men, or the inspiration of a divine all-knowing being. And whether or not the being or beings described as God(s) is accurate according to those faiths.

 

[monkat]

I personally don't care about religion, but for the sake of debate, I'm going to play the devil's advocate (pun definitely intended.)

Since this whole topic seems to revolve around the Abrahamic religions, and more specifically their God, I'll start off with that. Can you explain the creation of the universe? Our best theory right now is that the entire universe was compressed into something the size of the point of a pen by the four great forces in our universe. One of those forces somehow broke loose, quickly followed by the other three, and then the Universe expanded (and is continuously expanding), known as the Big Bang. Even if this was the case (which we still can't explain - to be clear, I mean the forces breaking loose, not the big bang itself, there is evidence of that), where did the forces come from? Where did matter come from? Until you can explain that, the best theory that we can slap onto it is that a god did it. If you deny it, it is your job as followers of science to prove it wrong. Everything is right until proven wrong.

Religion in and of itself, though, is a completely different matter. Its purpose is a product of social evolution - societies that believed in religion survived and lasted longer (due to morales), and "natural selection" takes its course. Since that time, our species has always latched on to some religion, on a societal scale, as it provides guidance in difficult decisions and gives a reason to do the right thing, even if it hurts you. It was important in early civilization, and it will be important again when turbulent times hit, and the idea of murdering your neighbor for a more comfortable life seems like a pretty good idea.

I was gonna say something else, but I lost my train of thought.

EDIT: Also, this.

Anyway, there must be a god, proof:

Spoiler

 

[fairlyevenparents]

God is real; i've seen him on tv promoting his book(s).

 

[GreatCrippler]

God is real; i've seen him on tv promoting his book(s).

Rush Limbaugh is not god. >.>

 

[Magmorph]

I personally don't care about religion, but for the sake of debate, I'm going to play the devil's advocate (pun definitely intended.)

Since this whole topic seems to revolve around the Abrahamic religions, and more specifically their God, I'll start off with that. Can you explain the creation of the universe? Our best theory right now is that the entire universe was compressed into something the size of the point of a pen by the four great forces in our universe. One of those forces somehow broke loose, quickly followed by the other three, and then the Universe expanded (and is continuously expanding), known as the Big Bang. Even if this was the case (which we still can't explain - to be clear, I mean the forces breaking loose, not the big bang itself, there is evidence of that), where did the forces come from? Where did matter come from? Until you can explain that, the best theory that we can slap onto it is that a god did it. If you deny it, it is your job as followers of science to prove it wrong. Everything is right until proven wrong.

The big bang theory does explain the creation of matter. There are things that we don't know but there is no reason to replace "I don't know" with "God did it". Nothing is right until proven right. It is not the job of the followers of science to disprove anything that has no evidence to back it up.

 

[_Chaz_]

God is real; i've seen him on tv promoting his book(s).

Rush Limbaugh is not god. >.>

Prove it.

 

[monkat]

I personally don't care about religion, but for the sake of debate, I'm going to play the devil's advocate (pun definitely intended.)

Since this whole topic seems to revolve around the Abrahamic religions, and more specifically their God, I'll start off with that. Can you explain the creation of the universe? Our best theory right now is that the entire universe was compressed into something the size of the point of a pen by the four great forces in our universe. One of those forces somehow broke loose, quickly followed by the other three, and then the Universe expanded (and is continuously expanding), known as the Big Bang. Even if this was the case (which we still can't explain - to be clear, I mean the forces breaking loose, not the big bang itself, there is evidence of that), where did the forces come from? Where did matter come from? Until you can explain that, the best theory that we can slap onto it is that a god did it. If you deny it, it is your job as followers of science to prove it wrong. Everything is right until proven wrong.

The big bang theory does explain the creation of matter. There are things that we don't know but there is no reason to replace "I don't know" with "God did it". Nothing is right until proven right. It is not the job of the followers of science to disprove anything that has no evidence to back it up.

Do you understand the scientific method at all? Let's ignore religion here, and use a different example.

I say if you put a packet of tea leaves in water, diffusion will cause the tea's "essence" to leak into the water.

You say it sounds reasonable.

Fifty years down the road, we find that it's because a magical fairy or something did it.

The point is, we take the best shot we have until it's proven wrong, or a more logical theory is presented.

 

[GreatCrippler]

God is real; i've seen him on tv promoting his book(s).

Rush Limbaugh is not god. >.>

Prove it.

Oh, I will... it will take me a few years... When he dies of a heart attack... Proof!

 

[Magmorph]

I personally don't care about religion, but for the sake of debate, I'm going to play the devil's advocate (pun definitely intended.)

Since this whole topic seems to revolve around the Abrahamic religions, and more specifically their God, I'll start off with that. Can you explain the creation of the universe? Our best theory right now is that the entire universe was compressed into something the size of the point of a pen by the four great forces in our universe. One of those forces somehow broke loose, quickly followed by the other three, and then the Universe expanded (and is continuously expanding), known as the Big Bang. Even if this was the case (which we still can't explain - to be clear, I mean the forces breaking loose, not the big bang itself, there is evidence of that), where did the forces come from? Where did matter come from? Until you can explain that, the best theory that we can slap onto it is that a god did it. If you deny it, it is your job as followers of science to prove it wrong. Everything is right until proven wrong.

The big bang theory does explain the creation of matter. There are things that we don't know but there is no reason to replace "I don't know" with "God did it". Nothing is right until proven right. It is not the job of the followers of science to disprove anything that has no evidence to back it up.

Do you understand the scientific method at all? Let's ignore religion here, and use a different example.

I say if you put a packet of tea leaves in water, diffusion will cause the tea's "essence" to leak into the water.

You say it sounds reasonable.

Fifty years down the road, we find that it's because a magical fairy or something did it.

The point is, we take the best shot we have until it's proven wrong, or a more logical theory is presented.

We don't make baseless assertions when using the scientific method. If I were using the scientific method I wouldn't say "that sounds reasonable", I would test your hypothesis. It is not logical to take something as truth just because you don't have a better answer. I also have an invisible dragon that lives in my brain and feasts upon my soul. Can you prove that wrong? If you can't then it must be true until you can disprove it.

 

[monkat]

Can you prove that wrong? If you can't then it must be true until you can disprove it.

So it's okay to say we're not allowed to say "You can't prove it wrong!", but it's acceptable for you to say "You can't prove it right!"?

Also - a hypothesis on a subject with no research IS a baseless assertion - we have no information, so the hypothesis is that God did it. It's a perfectly logical situation, providing it exists, fits in with existing theories, etc., so it is now the leading theory on the subject.

 

[Magmorph]

Can you prove that wrong? If you can't then it must be true until you can disprove it.

So it's okay to say we're not allowed to say "You can't prove it wrong!", but it's acceptable for you to say "You can't prove it right!"?

Also - a hypothesis on a subject with no research IS a baseless assertion - we have no information, so the hypothesis is that God did it. It's a perfectly logical situation, providing it exists, fits in with existing theories, etc., so it is now the leading theory on the subject.

The burden of proof is on the one making the assertion. If I have no proof of the invisible dragon then you have no reason to believe in it. A hypothesis is not a theory. If you make a hypothesis and have no evidence supporting it or disproving it then it does not become a theory. You don't just stop at making an unfalsifiable assertion. The flying spaghetti monster is just as likely to have done it. It is now the leading theory on the subject.

 

[monkat]

The flying spaghetti monster is just as likely to have done it. It is now the leading theory on the subject.

I agree 100%.

 

[lolzed]

How wrong is this...
The last debate says evolution was how we came about,so most likely there is no God(according to results)
Also,un-capitalize God,you can't put "a" if it's capitalized.Unless it's the God of Israel,then all other religions shouldn't be here...

Anyways,I don't wanna debate,nothing will happen anyway,same thing,this debate never ends.

oh and one last thing

Why do you believe things that could easily have been written by maniacs, or as stories of fiction?

Well,the books were found in different places,and different authors,yet they are all similar(Mat. Mark Luke and John for example.)

 

[Tanas]

Can you prove that wrong? If you can't then it must be true until you can disprove it.

So it's okay to say we're not allowed to say "You can't prove it wrong!", but it's acceptable for you to say "You can't prove it right!"?

Also - a hypothesis on a subject with no research IS a baseless assertion - we have no information, so the hypothesis is that God did it. It's a perfectly logical situation, providing it exists, fits in with existing theories, etc., so it is now the leading theory on the subject.

Science has proven wrong the "god did it" excuse time after time, which asks the question, how many more times has the ignorance of the "god did it" excuse going to have to be proved wrong before the religious actually decide to take their heads from out of their arses?

 

[TrolleyDave]

Also,un-capitalize God,you can't put "a" if it's capitalized.Unless it's the God of Israel,then all other religions shouldn't be here...

Why shouldn't all other religions be here if it isn't one based of the Judaic God?

 

[lolzed]

Also,un-capitalize God,you can't put "a" if it's capitalized.Unless it's the God of Israel,then all other religions shouldn't be here...

Why shouldn't all other religions be here if it isn't one based of the Judaic God?

http://atheism.about.com/od/doesgodexist/a...italization.htm
capitalization rule...
I say just change it to "Does a god exist",to make it correct(all other religions,including Judaic)

 

[TrolleyDave]

Also,un-capitalize God,you can't put "a" if it's capitalized.Unless it's the God of Israel,then all other religions shouldn't be here...

Why shouldn't all other religions be here if it isn't one based of the Judaic God?

http://atheism.about.com/od/doesgodexist/a...italization.htm
capitalization rule...
I say just change it to "Does a god exist",to make it correct(all other religions,including Judaic)

Ah I see, my apologies. I thought you meant that only the Judaic religions should be discussed.

 

[Uncle FEFL]

We can however think rationally and come to the conclusion that there must be an almighty being for everything to make sense.Wat.

I personally believe that I would be lying to myself if I said that everything around me came about by chance.There's no need for the rest of the universe if we were all God needed, right?

You see, there's this theory of "quantum fluctuations," which basically means a shift in the amount of energy in a specific area. Now, energy can't be created or destroyed, or so says the laws of thermodynamics, however, if the universe was truly created by "nature," then a quantum fluctuation must have taken place.

I'm not gonna pretend I know how to do the math on this stuff, or that I completely understand these theories (you need the mathematics in order to do so), but I believe I do understand the gist of them.

At the end of the day, to believe in a god, you must take a leap of faith, which most people are not willing to do for whatever reason.Because it involves abandoning your rational mind in fear of going to hell, as well as believing in something that cannot be seen.

QUOTEHowever, I do think its somewhat lazy to say that a god can't exist because of the state of the world now. We all fail time and time again. I don't know about you, but if I fail, I don't just sit there expecting someone to change it for me. I'm not buying into this cynical view for a second. If you think its bad today, it could be much worse. In fact, it has been much worse.

The state of the world is tragic. Why would a God let its people suffer so harshly, and allow others to be corrupt and cruel? Is God fair?

QUOTE

And please don't think I'm calling anyone stupid because they don't worship a god. I just don't see how a god can not exist. All in all, nothing is going to change, because as humans we're all emotionally attached to our own arguments. Feel free to interject, but I have nothing else to say.

Plenty of people argue pragmatically.

Take a look at God's command of the genocide of the Canaanites. Can an omnibenevolent God exist after ordering a genocide?


EDIT: Haha, forgot to hit your other point.

 

[BobTheJoeBob]

PROVE YOUR GOD IS REAL

If you can't than it's just all in your head

religion/god/jesus is all man made to combat man fear...nothing more

You can't see gravity, yet I'm sure most of you believe in that.