Religion. The Last Debate

[Magmorph]

[W]hat makes you aspire to become a muslim?

Someone on the internet has been teaching me about Islam, and I think it's pretty cool (to simplify it). However, the reason why I don't believe in Allah/God yet is because of my doubts.

There are some scientific facts found in the Surahs of the Qur'an, which I find interesting. There are far less contradictions as well (if any at all, so the person who's informing me says). I still have yet to read the Qur'an.

Basically, I'm actually trying to believe in God, just as George Carlin said in one of his stand-ups, lol. I'm giving Islam a chance. Whether it will answer my questions or not is up to me.

There are some scientific facts in the Bible as well. There are certainly contradictions in the Qur'an but I can't disagree that it has less than the Bible.

 

[TrolleyDave]

I still don't see it? Unless you're referring to "the heavens" as space?

This should clarify it:

Spoiler

In Sura 42,Verse 29 (42:29) of the Quran,we are told, "Among His (God's) signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth,and the living creatures that He has scattered through them :and He has power to gather them together when He wills." (8) Before proceeding further,a point or two must be noted.The word "sama",translated "heavens",is also the Arabic for "sky".One may object that the verse refers to creatures in the sky (which would be birds),not in the heavens.However,birds are mentioned seperately from creatures of the heavens in 24:41, "Seest thou not that it is God Whose praise all beings in the heavens and on earth do celebrate,and the birds (of the air) with wings outspread?..." (9) In a note to 42;29,Muhammad Asad states,"In the Quran,the expression "the heavens and earth" invariably denotes the universe in its entireity." (10) The Quran mentions that inanimate objects also worship God:"Do they not look at God's creation, (even) among (inanimate) things- how their (very) shadows turn round,from right to left,prostrating themselves to God..."(16:48). (11) Therefore,may not the creatures spoken of in 42:29 in the heavens,be inanimate creatures of God.No.The next verse,16:49 goes, "And to God doth obeisance all that is in the heavens and earth,whether moving (living) creatures or the angels...". (12) The word translated "living creatures" here is the same as that in 42:29- "Dabbatun".Comments Asad,"The word dabbah denotes any sentient,corporeal being capable of spontaneous movement and is contrasted here with the non-corporeal,spiritual beings designated as "angels" ". (13) In other words,42:29 is referring to precisely the type of lifeforms that science is searching for,not some metaphysical entities.Yusuf Ali says,"Dabbatun:beasts,living,crawling creatures of all kind." (14) This is the same word used in 2:164,"...in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth...are signs for a people that are wise," (15) and in 24:45,"And God has created every animal from waterf them are some that creep on their bellies;some that walk on two legs;and some that walk on four. God creates what he wills..." (16) Commenting on 42:29,Allama Shabbir Ahmad Usmani says,"From the verse it appears that like on the earth,there are some kinds of animals- living creatures- in the heavens also." (17) On the same verse,Yusuf Ali comments, "Life is not confined to our one little Planet.It is a very old speculation to imagine some life like human life on the planet Mars...it is reasonable to suppose that Life in some form or other is scattered through some of the millions of heavenly bodies scattered through space." (18) From such remarks,the reader will realize that Muslim scholars are well aware of the fact that 42:29 clearly mentions the existence of aliens.

Ah yeah, I've read that before. I've dismissed the theory that it refers to aliens because there are also Islamic scholars who have said that the fact that the Qu'ran refers to the "seven heavens" and the Earth has 7 layers of atmosphere proof that it's from a divine source. It matches science to a verse. In my opinion that's what's happening here. On the one hand they say that the heavens refer to outer space and on the other they refer to the 7th heaven as being the uppermost layer of atmosphere. Of course, the 7 heavens/atmosphere theory only came about since the discovery but it still contradicts the scholars interperatation of that particular verse. I don't believe for a second it's referring to aliens, but that's just my opinion obviously.

 

[BobTheJoeBob]

[W]hat makes you aspire to become a muslim?

Someone on the internet has been teaching me about Islam, and I think it's pretty cool (to simplify it). However, the reason why I don't believe in Allah/God yet is because of my doubts.

There are some scientific facts found in the Surahs of the Qur'an, which I find interesting. There are far less contradictions as well (if any at all, so the person who's informing me says). I still have yet to read the Qur'an.

Basically, I'm actually trying to believe in God, just as George Carlin said in one of his stand-ups, lol. I'm giving Islam a chance. Whether it will answer my questions or not is up to me.

There are some scientific facts in the Bible as well. There are certainly contradictions in the Qur'an but I can't disagree that it has less than the Bible.

Could you point out a contradiction? (I mean that in the serious tone)

 

[Tanas]

[W]hat makes you aspire to become a muslim?

Someone on the internet has been teaching me about Islam, and I think it's pretty cool (to simplify it). However, the reason why I don't believe in Allah/God yet is because of my doubts.

There are some scientific facts found in the Surahs of the Qur'an, which I find interesting. There are far less contradictions as well (if any at all, so the person who's informing me says). I still have yet to read the Qur'an.

Basically, I'm actually trying to believe in God, just as George Carlin said in one of his stand-ups, lol. I'm giving Islam a chance. Whether it will answer my questions or not is up to me.

There are some scientific facts in the Bible as well. There are certainly contradictions in the Qur'an but I can't disagree that it has less than the Bible.

Could you point out a contradiction? (I mean that in the serious tone)

Heres a few here.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim...radictions.html

 

[BobTheJoeBob]

[W]hat makes you aspire to become a muslim?

Someone on the internet has been teaching me about Islam, and I think it's pretty cool (to simplify it). However, the reason why I don't believe in Allah/God yet is because of my doubts.

There are some scientific facts found in the Surahs of the Qur'an, which I find interesting. There are far less contradictions as well (if any at all, so the person who's informing me says). I still have yet to read the Qur'an.

Basically, I'm actually trying to believe in God, just as George Carlin said in one of his stand-ups, lol. I'm giving Islam a chance. Whether it will answer my questions or not is up to me.

There are some scientific facts in the Bible as well. There are certainly contradictions in the Qur'an but I can't disagree that it has less than the Bible.

Could you point out a contradiction? (I mean that in the serious tone)

Heres a few here.
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim...radictions.html

I was talking about the quran.

 

[Tanas]

oops sorry

I suggest a quick google search.

 

[Magmorph]

[W]hat makes you aspire to become a muslim?

Someone on the internet has been teaching me about Islam, and I think it's pretty cool (to simplify it). However, the reason why I don't believe in Allah/God yet is because of my doubts.

There are some scientific facts found in the Surahs of the Qur'an, which I find interesting. There are far less contradictions as well (if any at all, so the person who's informing me says). I still have yet to read the Qur'an.

Basically, I'm actually trying to believe in God, just as George Carlin said in one of his stand-ups, lol. I'm giving Islam a chance. Whether it will answer my questions or not is up to me.

There are some scientific facts in the Bible as well. There are certainly contradictions in the Qur'an but I can't disagree that it has less than the Bible.

Could you point out a contradiction? (I mean that in the serious tone)

From the nearly infinite number of ways a given passage can be interpreted I don't think it's worth my time to try to convince you. If I point one out the argument will be that I wasn't interpreting it correctly. I can't assume that a follower of any religion would take an unbiased look at their holy book.

 

[TrolleyDave]

Could you point out a contradiction? (I mean that in the serious tone)

The problem with pointing out contradictions in the Qu'ran is the abrogation clause that's in it. So nothing contradicts itself, it merely brings in a new passage, rule or what have you.

 

[Infinite Zero]

Is the bible fiction? The answer to the question is - it depends...
Yes, the bible is fiction. Remember, it was written by mankind.

It was written by Jesus' disciples not in book form yet but scrolls, translated to other languages, but the first who published the Bible as a book was Johann Guttenberg A GERMAN.

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No. I don't need the so called Religion. All I need is Jesus as my Lord and Saviour. You don't need religion, you need faith.
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If you truely believe your god is real..... PROVE IT

copy and paste from the bible, it not proof
Atheists... that's the non-stop question that's asked every time. Don't you get it? It's simply believing in things you cannot see. Humans have limited knowledge. Not everything you say about science is accurate.
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QUOTE(RoMee @ Sep 12 2010, 05:18 AM) -religion is man made I for one DO NOT need religion. I only need God and a personal relationship with Him.
-most christians are hypocite....practice what you preach..plz Remember who said that Theists/believers were fucking idiots? Guess who?
-biggest monster are god believers..warren jeff, mansion, hitler..nixon..etc Give me your source and proof if you must. Do you know who William Carey, Adoniram Judson, Hudson Taylor, Martin Luther, John Wycliffe, William Tyndale, Dwight Moody are?
-hate...religous people love to discriminate against gays, women's choice, other religions, etc
and they justify their hate with their god Because it is wrong. Some Christians claim they are though they aren't.

God gave free will so that they may live responsibly. People have their choice on where to believe in.

So if you believe your god is real...PROVE IT

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QUOTE(RoMee @ Sep 12 2010, 05:57 AM)

@jet..you can end this debate

just PROVE YOUR GOD IS REAL..

it's your burden

It YOUR burden. We won't do all the work for you if you wouldn't like to listen. I know and feel that He is real.

 

[_Chaz_]

I'd just like to say something.

Religion is not a bad thing. It provides a voice of reason for people to listen to and ensures that some people will act in a civilized manner in most cases.



The Bible is pure fiction. Anyone who believes that every species of animal in the world was within walking distance to Noah's home is just retarded.

The Bible is not a recollection of events that actually happened, it is a book of stories telling of how a good Christian should act.

 

[Magmorph]

Is the bible fiction? The answer to the question is - it depends...
Yes, the bible is fiction. Remember, it was written by mankind.

It was written by Jesus' disciples not in book form yet but scrolls, translated to other languages, but the first who published the Bible as a book was Johann Guttenberg A GERMAN.

Are you implying that Germans are not part of mankind?

I also think you might be misinformed on the origin of the Bible.

QUOTE(Infinite Zero @ Sep 11 2010, 06:16 PM)

It YOUR burden. We won't do all the work for you if you wouldn't like to listen. I know and feel that He is real.

If you make an assertion the burden of proof is on you. You do have to do the work if you want to convince someone that the assertion is true.

 

[Infinite Zero]

Are you implying that Germans are not part of mankind? Nope. Sorry if I underlined that part.

I also think you might be misinformed on the origin of the Bible. If I am, will YOU tell me the true origin??

It YOUR burden. We won't do all the work for you if you wouldn't like to listen. I know and feel that He is real.

If you make an assertion the burden of proof is on you. You do have to do the work if you want to convince someone that the assertion is true.

 

[FAST6191]

Once again I find myself ill prepared/unwilling to play this game again. In general when playing this game he who is away with the faeries is probably long past the point of no return (or the point where the amount of effort required is not worth the reward)- my focus tends to be on those just deciding such things (predictably I am not always a favourite among the religious with children).

Re those who download a rom being guilty of stealing (assuming it was not for the purposes of education, satire, criticism or review of course)- that is some act of foretelling for ancient laws written, translated and interpreted to comprehend and implement intellectual property much less account for the subtle variations across space, time and legal precedent.

Suicide as murder- if murder is a law based thing (that is to say at points killing is justifiable) as defined by the state and suicide is not against the law what part does the state (which history has long shown to be relatively short lived in nature) have in religion.

Division of religion (in some instances it is called denomination)- picking on Christianity here to start with but name a system of belief and I will afford a similar example (to some the norse gods, Paganism and/or Heathenism historically was something of a slur or generalisation so it is probably best to avoid the term without further expansion, were merely examples or indeed historical figures of a sort while to others deity status was conferred and we also have the ever fun Sunni and Shiah/Shiite division). I always find it amusing that such groups can be lumped together as numbers might afford or the argument finds reason for yet deep (or not so deep) theological arguments* will usually arise upon meeting of the groups. As with many things it seems to be a spread spectrum of belief and this complicates things immensely (and if it does not I just have complicated it).

*sticking with Christianity (or indeed the Abrahamic religions)- transubstantiation, sainthood (or indeed any divinely influenced act), new vs old testament vs Book of Mormon (and the subsets within that) vs Jesuit (admittedly not in the same league as others in this list) vs Jehovah's Witnesses vs Amish, interpretation of texts (literal, liberal, hybrid, otherwise),subsequent religious texts (Lord's prayer for instance), translation of works, papal decree, repurposing of existing beliefs/festivals/traditions* and hybridisation of religions (not the same as repurposing)- see several of the Caribbean mergings with West African tribal religions or indeed creation following from Ragnarok.

*Saturnalia vs Christmas for one.

Many of the pro religion arguments I have read before (almost word for word), merely an observation at this point.

I am far too lazy to go back pages at this point but the person who said "face to face with Budda" might wish to refresh themselves on the concept behind the system.

Re 72 virgins- my chosen clip.


In general for me
Galactic scales (time, space, energy, entropy) piss all over religion as it is presently/commonly defined (how does Israel figure into Pangea again?)
You can however believe what you want- such beliefs will be afforded no respect though
Physics has manifested all manner of things and can demonstrably do more, religion's modern tally amounts to a nice money maker and support structure.

 

[Blood Fetish]

There is no quantifiable evidence of a God, therefore all religions are fool's endeavors. I could tell you that I am your god given human form and you would be required to accept that regardless of evidence. There is no difference between believing in a god figure and believing in the tooth fairy.

 

[RoMee]

Atheists... that's the non-stop question that's asked every time. Don't you get it? It's simply believing in things you cannot see. Humans have limited knowledge. Not everything you say about science is accurate.

I don't see zeus is he real??

PROVE YOUR GOD IS REAL

 

[_Chaz_]

Atheists... that's the non-stop question that's asked every time. Don't you get it? It's simply believing in things you cannot see. Humans have limited knowledge. Not everything you say about science is accurate.

I don't see zeus is he real??

PROVE YOUR GOD IS REAL

Of course Zeus is real.

 

[Magmorph]

Atheists... that's the non-stop question that's asked every time. Don't you get it? It's simply believing in things you cannot see. Humans have limited knowledge. Not everything you say about science is accurate.

I don't see zeus is he real??

PROVE YOUR GOD IS REAL

Of course he is. Where do you think lightning comes from?

 

[RoMee]

lol...

 

[DiscostewSM]

PROVE YOUR GOD IS REAL

Only a perfect person can prove God's existance. Imperfect people just toss the issue aside because it is just simpler to do so.

 

[Uncle FEFL]

Atheists... that's the non-stop question that's asked every time. Don't you get it? It's simply believing in things you cannot see.You mean you have to be a lunatic to believe in God? Why the fuck would you ever believe in something that cannot be seen? What makes God more special than good ol' Santy Claus?

Brah, do you believe in unicorns, fairies, spaghetti monsters, and invisible monkeys? No? Why not?

I believe there are extraterrestrials out there, but that can be backed up by a little something called evidence. Ya see, we have life on this planet, the universe is huge, and there are billions of other planets out there. This isn't the only one that can support life, we just have to find the other exoplanets that do. The main division between us is distance.

QUOTEHumans have limited knowledge. Not everything you say about science is accurate.

The same can be said for religion.