nesDS and DSi XL LCD Burn-in?

Another World

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nesDS and DSi XL LCD Burn-in?
Speculation and faulty testing
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There have been some recent rumors circulating that NesDS will, without a doubt, cause burn-in to the DSi XL’s LCD screen. Most of the reports have been traced to speculation with no facts to back up this claim. Recently, however, I came across a post on the SC Forum stating that this happens when NesDS is paused for 30 minutes.

If we were to assume that the DSi XL in question was not faulty to begin with then the only factual information that came come from this is that pausing software for 30 minutes can cause pixel burn-in. There is no factual information to point to NesDS as the cause.

What is required is actual empirical data as the result of controlled testing on a large number of DSi (XL/LL) units purchased from different places and tested using different software. The result of which may be that anything left on pause for 30 minutes may causes burn-in on certain DSi (XL/LL) LCD screens.

Personally, I have used NesDS on my XL since day one and have never had an issue with it. I also have not paused game emulation for any length of time. Save-states and powering off have been my saving grace, so-to-speak.

Please use the discussion link to chime in with your thoughts about this. It would be nice to see some discussion about LCD burn-in and the facts surrounding such an event.



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Covarr

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LCD Burn-in? Is there even such a thing? I mean, it can definitely happen short-term, but I'm fairly certain that it fades after a short while.
 

trumpet-205

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Screen burn-in can happen on everything. CRT, LCD, and plasma all can suffer screen burn-in. Though a screen burn-in for just 30 minutes sounds untrue.
 

nl255

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trumpet-205 said:
Screen burn-in can happen on everything. CRT, LCD, and plasma all can suffer screen burn-in. Though a screen burn-in for just 30 minutes sounds untrue.

I was the one who did the testing and I can confirm that it is true, at least for my blue DSi XL purchased just after the US price drop. 15 minutes of Contra (picked because Contra 4 includes an emulated Contra 1, in case I had to return it to the store) on pause did not do it but 30 did. Fortunately, running the LCD tester at maximum speed I have tested this twice, but will not be doing further tests as it is well past the return period. The entire reason I posted the thread was to try to collect more data.

As for just not pausing, that might not work as some games like Super Mario 3 have a static status bar at the bottom (or top) of the screen and might cause the same problems. I figured putting it on pause was the easiest way to simulate that. None of my other LCD screens have the problem with burn in happening in only 30 minutes, including my PSP (2000, TA088v2) or LCD TV (Samsung LN26A330).
 

jeklnoo

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I don't think LCD can get permanent burn-in, it's just not how the tech works. (not counting stuck pixels of course, that's something completely different). I have heard of temporary burn-in on LCD though, but it goes away with just a little use or leaving the screen off for a while.
 

nl255

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jeklnoo said:
I don't think LCD can get permanent burn-in, it's just not how the tech works. (not counting stuck pixels of course, that's something completely different). I have heard of temporary burn-in on LCD though, but it goes away with just a little use or leaving the screen off for a while.

Well, in my experiences you can get rid of the burn in (image retention, to be exact) by using that lcd tester (which cycles between the different colors) at maximum speed for a while. I did not test to see if it would go away on it's own, though some people have said that it did not (but did not try the LCD stuck pixel fixer thing). I just wish that when someone says that nesDS messed up their XL they would include what they were doing at the time and what steps if any they took to fix it (or how long they waited to let it go away on it's own) rather than just "it messed up my screen".
 

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there is no way this is because of nesDS. you need to test on your XL using a NDS ROM, Moonshell, anything that can be paused to a static screen. try another EMU like SNES, Linx, GBx, etc. just let it sit there for 30 min and see if it happens. There is nothing in nesDS that causes it to "use" the screen harder than the next application. the news post was done to make the point that this can't be nesDS related, it must be the LCD screens. i'm not saying it is only your problem and i'm not saying that you are not telling the truth.

i'm saying its a problem with the LCDs not the specific homebrew you are using (IE: nesDS).

-another world
 

jceggbert5

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Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay! I first heard not to use it on the DSiXL on the SCDS2 Plugins thread, and Googled it, with scary results.

Now I know that I'm safe!

* Jceggbert5 goes put a bunch of NES ROMS and the NESDS Plugin on his SCDS2's MicroSDHC
 

CannonFoddr

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jceggbert5 said:
Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay! I first heard not to use it on the DSiXL on the SCDS2 Plugins thread
Yep blame me for that - I read a rumor in another forum, Googled it & got scared myself (even though I don't have a XL) - so posted it in the plugin post for others as a warning to watch out for it

It would be a good idea to get some actual facts over it instead of the rumors
 

wolfmanz51

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i havent had any issue with this and i played all the way through several nes using nesDS games on my US launch XLon both and acekard and recently a Supercard DS two sounds to me like anyone who would have this issue would get a broken screen eventually anyways.
 

Arm73

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Another World said:
there is no way this is because of nesDS. you need to test on your XL using a NDS ROM, Moonshell, anything that can be paused to a static screen. try another EMU like SNES, Linx, GBx, etc. just let it sit there for 30 min and see if it happens. There is nothing in nesDS that causes it to "use" the screen harder than the next application. the news post was done to make the point that this can't be nesDS related, it must be the LCD screens. i'm not saying it is only your problem and i'm not saying that you are not telling the truth.

i'm saying its a problem with the LCDs not the specific homebrew you are using (IE: nesDS).

-another world

Doesn't NesDS use some tricks to slightly adjust the refresh rate of the LCD so that is closely emulates the output of the original system, in order to have smoother/tearless scrollings ?
That kind of technique is implemented in other emulators that I know of ( ZXDS explicitly forces the LCD refresh rate at 50hz to match the original framerates of the original PAL machine ) so maybe that's it.
Pausing the DS with some application that runs at a different, non-standard refresh rate, can cause problems.
 

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I believe I was the first person to warn people of this on the SCDS2 forums (I didn't see any other thread on it, anyway), and here's basically what happened to me:

I was playing Legend of Zelda on NesDS (using my SCDS2 on my DSiXL of course), repeatedly loading and saving states. Nothing happened the first 50 times I did this, but this specific time I went to save a state, the screen froze. When I restarted my DSiXL, there was screen burn. I then took the device to Best Buy to trade it in for a new one, hoping it was something wrong with the device itself and not the SCDS2 or NesDS. By the time I got there though, the clerk recognized that the burn had faded a bit, so....it's likely that if you wait a few hours, it'll go away, but I'm not sure; I know next to nothing about LCDs.

I'm pretty sure I didn't claim that NesDS was NECESSARILY the cause though. I'm sure I just told the above story and cautioned people. I've been too scared to try NesDS since though, so this thread is very reassuring, and I can't wait to get back to defeating Ganon!
 

JonthanD

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neochronomo said:
I believe I was the first person to warn people of this on the SCDS2 forums (I didn't see any other thread on it, anyway), and here's basically what happened to me:

I was playing Legend of Zelda on NesDS (using my SCDS2 on my DSiXL of course), repeatedly loading and saving states. Nothing happened the first 50 times I did this, but this specific time I went to save a state, the screen froze. When I restarted my DSiXL, there was screen burn. I then took the device to Best Buy to trade it in for a new one, hoping it was something wrong with the device itself and not the SCDS2 or NesDS. By the time I got there though, the clerk recognized that the burn had faded a bit, so....it's likely that if you wait a few hours, it'll go away, but I'm not sure; I know next to nothing about LCDs.

I'm pretty sure I didn't claim that NesDS was NECESSARILY the cause though. I'm sure I just told the above story and cautioned people. I've been too scared to try NesDS since though, so this thread is very reassuring, and I can't wait to get back to defeating Ganon!


Yeah I wouldn't worry too much about LCD burn in, I have seen hundreds of CRT's with burn in but so far not one single LCD.
I must say though that even with the CRT's that the only consistent burn in problems I witnessed where with arcade machines or strong magnets being held on the screen for too long.

I am not saying that LCD burn in can't happen, I am just saying I have yet to witness it myself.

This was a short easy to understand and informative read.

http://www.techlore.com/article/10099/Do-LCD-TVs-Burn-In-/
 

Another World

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QUOTE said:
Doesn't NesDS use some tricks to slightly adjust the refresh rate of the LCD so that is closely emulates the output of the original system, in order to have smoother/tearless scrollings ?
That kind of technique is implemented in other emulators that I know of ( ZXDS explicitly forces the LCD refresh rate at 50hz to match the original framerates of the original PAL machine ) so maybe that's it.
Pausing the DS with some application that runs at a different, non-standard refresh rate, can cause problems.

i do not remember reading anything about that. i will try to get in touch with dwedit who should have some more insight, now that loopy is MIA.

-another world
 

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QUOTE said:
Doesn't NesDS use some tricks to slightly adjust the refresh rate of the LCD so that is closely emulates the output of the original system, in order to have smoother/tearless scrollings ?
That kind of technique is implemented in other emulators that I know of ( ZXDS explicitly forces the LCD refresh rate at 50hz to match the original framerates of the original PAL machine ) so maybe that's it.
Pausing the DS with some application that runs at a different, non-standard refresh rate, can cause problems.
Yep This is what I read as well so it'll be nice if Another World does get in contact with the developers to see if this fact is true or not, although one of the posts I read about something like this stated the following:- (this contains 2 posts)

There is one way for software to damage the screen: if it forces the refresh rate to something different (say, to match a console's refresh rate) then it can damage it.So, maybe NesDS does that... I'd doubt it though.


Well my favorite emulator, ZXDS does that. I mean it changes the refresh rate to 50hz so that it can match the original output of the Spectrum.
It looked fine on the DSL but I see a little shadow on the DSiXL when on the main menu ( white background of the 128K menu), so I'm starting to worry.
So maybe it's not just NesDS but all emulators - & perhaps it's only more noticeable on the XL rather than the Phat/Lite's ??
 

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