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Indoctrination of children

piratesephiroth

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we've already hit a point where renewable energy is cheaper per kWH than fossil fuels.

LOL, you really have no idea of what you're talking about.
Please stop regurgitating bs that corrupt politicians and their pet celebrities pull out of their asses.

Renewable energy is NEVER efficient at all. It's extremely expensive and destroys the environment.

 
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notimp

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Also here is how power grids work. If you cant keep the voltage stable over the entire grid, the entire grid goes down. Stuff breaks, and it takes weeks to months to get it going again.

Again those are real issues - that you will NEVER address with "keep it in the ground" chants.

Now. Scientific developments are on trajectory to solve the storage issue. To deliver renewable energy from lets say geothermal to cities, you need entire new cross country power infrastructures (plants can be near cities), where you literally loose efficiency over distance, with wind turbines, you have the greens complaining that they kill birds, and the conservatives complaining, that they reduce the value of their houses properties, if people have to look at them.

In winter, your solar energy production gets reduced down to a fifth, in areas where snow is a thing (because "just remove snow" isnt as easily said as done). How do you keep your powergrids working in that context?

Lets say you have a sudden blizzard. Now the entire town is out of electricity as well?
 
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Clydefrosch

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But you do understand that they need to demand 100% solar to even just get so much as 30% solar maybe eventually, right?

also, growing up is and has always been just one large episode of indoctrinations, so why is this different?
 

Xzi

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Renewable energy is NEVER efficient at all. It's extremely expensive and destroys the environment.
Holy fuck. This is the dumbest shit I've ever seen typed out on the internet. Congratulations, that was not a low bar.

Like, just fucking think about what you said for a second. "Renewable energy destroys the environment." Renewable energy comes from the environment you dip.

Source for solar/wind becoming cheaper than fossil fuels back in 2017:

Independent said:
Solar and wind is now either the same price or cheaper than new fossil fuel capacity in more than 30 countries, according to a new report from the World Economic Forum. The influential foundaton has described the change as a "tipping point" that could make fighting climate change into a profitable form of business for energy companies.
https://www.independent.co.uk/envir...fossil-fuels-for-the-first-time-a7509251.html

Absolutely impossible. Do they have snow in the winter?
Colorado has more days of sunshine per year than any other state, Florida included. Besides, one full day of sunshine stores enough energy to last more than a day without any sunshine. Our storage capacity for energy could use a bump, but the military probably has better technology than standard consumers in that regard anyway.

On the topic of consumer solar though, it is very doable to make individual houses energy independent. There is obviously a fair cost up-front, but there are subsidies you can get through varying states and people save a lot of money in the long run by adding solar panels. Not to mention adding value to their house.
 
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Captain_N

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The Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs is one of them, I'd have to verify for the others. They've got a massive solar array and their own solar power plant. Pretty cool to see when driving in.

Of course, this is a bit outdated. They've installed even more since 2015.

There is one source of power generation that's green and solves the fossil fuel burning problem. Fusion Reactors. While still experimental, no green energy advocate supports it. If they pumped money into it instead of solar farms maybe it would be ready. I know AoC is not smart enough to know what fusion is...
 
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Xzi

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There is one source of power generation that's green and solves the fossil fuel burning problem. Fusion Reactors. While still experimental, no green energy advocate supports it. If they pumped money into it instead of solar farms maybe it would be ready. I know AoC is not smart enough to know what fusion is...
Are you talking about nuclear energy? It's mostly safe and I'd be fine with it as a backup during the transition away from carbon-based fuels, but the truth is that we already have the technology and the resources to go completely green. The resistance to that comes almost entirely from the fossil fuel industry, of course, and they've got more lobbyists in government than anyone else AFAIK.
 

Captain_N

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Are you talking about nuclear energy? It's mostly safe and I'd be fine with it as a backup during the transition away from carbon-based fuels, but the truth is that we already have the technology and the resources to go completely green. The resistance to that comes almost entirely from the fossil fuel industry, of course, and they've got more lobbyists in government than anyone else AFAIK.

I was talking about Nuclear fusion reactors, not existing fission reactors.
 
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Xzi

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I was talking about Nuclear fusion reactors, not existing fission reactors.
As long as the technology can prove itself both safe and efficient in practice, and not just in theory, I don't see a problem with it. However, solar and wind electric are both proven technologies already, so there's no reason we shouldn't be expanding the use of those while simultaneously putting research into other carbon neutral options.
 

notimp

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The issue with nuclear is the disposal of its waste (every method invented basically 'failed' to be safe (Put them in barrels, store them away in former mining shafts in mountain ranges. Barrel rots away after 100 years, and you have glowing mountains... ;) Also the stuff then might make its way into the ground and water streams (you pick mountains with certain stone/sediment segments that are supposed to prevent that), and... Also strangely enough no other countries want to deal with that waste either.. ;) )).

Germany recently pivoted away from nuclear power (after the Fukushima incident, purely for domestic political reasons). If that was such a great idea, we have to still find out. It probably was. (Most our plants were end of life, and it was about "do we build new ones, or go into a different direction")

Solar has a similar issue, btw. The cells only last for 25 years, and then are electronic waste. Not as hazardous, but disposal is definitely an issue (they arent "green" anymore at that point).
 
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Xzi

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Solar has a similar issue, btw. The cells only last for 25 years, and then are electronic waste. Not as hazardous, but disposal is definitely an issue (they arent "green" anymore at that point).
Any form of energy has to be stored, and yes, storage is our biggest hurdle right now. I think we are close to some breakthroughs in terms of battery technology though, and that would help fix this issue almost entirely.
 

piratesephiroth

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Holy fuck. This is the dumbest shit I've ever seen typed out on the internet. Congratulations, that was not a low bar.

Like, just fucking think about what you said for a second. "Renewable energy destroys the environment." Renewable energy comes from the environment you dip.

Source for solar/wind becoming cheaper than fossil fuels back in 2017:


https://www.independent.co.uk/envir...fossil-fuels-for-the-first-time-a7509251.html


Colorado has more days of sunshine per year than any other state, Florida included. Besides, one full day of sunshine stores enough energy to last more than a day without any sunshine. Our storage capacity for energy could use a bump, but the military probably has better technology than standard consumers in that regard anyway.

On the topic of consumer solar though, it is very doable to make individual houses energy independent. There is obviously a fair cost up-front, but there are subsidies you can get through varying states and people save a lot of money in the long run by adding solar panels. Not to mention adding value to their house.

Nice sources, Einstein, lol.

Good luck making and installing those solar panels without consuming a ton of natural resources.
The same goes for dealing with the toxic chemical elements in them when they have to be disposed of and replaced.

Also look at the excuse "there are subsidies you can get"... Of course, the the favourite magical solution of all crooks and the cattle that puts them in charge of the government: just print more money!
 
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notimp

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Not even close. :)

You can look at this on the detailed level, or on the larger scale ( https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...22184f27c35_story.html?utm_term=.59be0b881abe ) and the answer is always no.

Although - in favor of your argument, projections here are hard to make. :)

So what you do instead is, you make different projections. Here is one of them -

The most positive technological outcome you can dream of:
Key developments in our Positive Tech Scenario (2050)
• Fully electric car fleet, 65% of truck fleet and 10% (including hybrid) of shipping fleet
• Electricity dominant energy source in real estate and industrials
• Power demand increases from 20,000 TWh in 2017 to 52,000 TWh
• Wind and solar to account for 33% of power generation each, coal power (38% now) eliminated
• Other shifts: 10% of ships using LNG, 14% of aviation using biofuels
src: https://www.ing.nl/media/ING_EBZ_technology-the-climate-saviour_tcm162-160146.pdf

Even in a scenario where we replace the entire car fleet with electric vehicles in the next 30 years, and have "electricity" be the dominant energy source for real estate and our main industries, and our power grids can keep up with the increasing power demands, and wind and solar account for 66% of power generation (never ever), and all coal based power generation is eliminated. And 10% of ships use liquified gas instead of crude, and 14% of aviation is using biofuels (whatever that means) - in the projection above, we are handily missing the 2030 climate conference target (imagine a child screaming into your ear "we've got to act NOW!"), and only just about reaching the 2050 climate target - on projection.

Now you've got to know two things. First - if your projections dont hit, it is a common practice to move the goal back a little further - which just raises uncertainty, but makes everyone think, that the goal is still attainable.

Second - the scenario above is never going to happen. It entirely glances over whats called "unintended feedback loops", meaning - if demand for oil sinks, it will get cheaper in price, so demand from other sectors rises, because its still there to be used - so we are talking about HEAVY state regulation at this point. (Carbon Tax, ...) and the projections that wind and solar would be able to generate 66% of increasing energy demands are - lets say "quite positive".

Basically, no one believes, that this is happening.

Which is where the abstinence and doomsday narratives come in, because we have to actually lower demand in society - to reach the goals we already said we want to reach (USA famously said fuck you instead). And thats the "how much less growth are you willing to take, and are you in for shaming your neighbors, into micromanaged - not drinking out of plastic bottles anymore" part that makes me climb up walls.

Because the negative feedback loops here are obvious as can be (*oh I so much reduced plastic use in my daily live - look at me instagram picture with a hemp bag from me vacation in bali*), and simply make me enraged - when I see them supposedly being championed. You are dealing with a "less is more" narrative, in a capitalistic society. Thats impossible. Before people actually change behavior where it hurts, they will make sure all the "voluntary changes" will be absorbed by the less affluent, who are already impacted most, by lower social mobility through less growth, and by high standards of living costs (also a direct result of low per capita income growth rates in relation to GDP). The entire thing is unjust as fuck. While marketing will tell you its "what you should strife to attain".

In the projections its then phrased as follows:
A rising middle class will increase demand for industrials products. Growth is lower than economic growth as the economy shifts from industrial products towards services..
Our Positive Tech Scenario allows for continued economic growth, absorbs increases in the global population and aspirational middle classes and relies less on nuclear energy to meet the climate goals.
First, f*ck services. (= "Millennials will never own a thing in their lives.")

Second, this tells you that an "aspirational middleclass" its whats actually subject of debate at the moment. ("How much can we shame them into consuming even less" by telling them they are doing it for their kids. In a no growth future, at least in Europe.)) because the techno optimist scenario is never going to happen as modeled (I'm sorry, but its not.), and allowing for a growing 'aspirational middle class' isnt set in stone.

So this is what your kids are on the street for. Because they heard something about nature and ponies, and have organized child entertainers making them jump.

I told you Cui bono wasnt fun to look at.
 
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notimp

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Now lets get into the marketing aspect of this.

Currently we see children in the streets in Europe that tell you "dont steal my future" - when the impact of climate change on their lives, is almost zero. (Because they live in europe, the impact on other regions in the world is very much larger in the same timeframe.)

And we see children in the streets, because they are able to move babyboomers (grandparents) investments (they are comparatively affluent, their children are not).

The idea to have this shift in investments lead by state action is impossible (it has to come to fruition too quickly, and states simply don't have the money for high risk projects right now - in Europe we dont even have the investment culture).

Another aspect of why we are seeing children on the forefront of that movement is, because if you do it as usual - and frame beautiful idealistic women, the narrative is entirely out of whack - because you then are telling people basically, to get going with the times, to get attractive mates, by reducing their own standards of living.

Talking about entirely impossible objectives.. ;)

Just the marketing perspective, where - you know, sex sells... So does selling people brands as life concepts, and value attribution ("He buys Apple, so he is intelligent.").

This part (this posting) is speculative. The rest is not.
 
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The Real Jdbye

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LOL, you really have no idea of what you're talking about.
Please stop regurgitating bs that corrupt politicians and their pet celebrities pull out of their asses.

Renewable energy is NEVER efficient at all. It's extremely expensive and destroys the environment.


At least it's efficient. Only a small percentage of the energy from fossil fuels is actually converted to electricity. The rest is wasted as heat. And that's why Americans still use gas stoves, it's far more efficient to produce heat with fossil fuels than electricity.
 

Captain_N

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The issue with nuclear is the disposal of its waste (every method invented basically 'failed' to be safe (Put them in barrels, store them away in former mining shafts in mountain ranges. Barrel rots away after 100 years, and you have glowing mountains... ;) Also the stuff then might make its way into the ground and water streams (you pick mountains with certain stone/sediment segments that are supposed to prevent that), and... Also strangely enough no other countries want to deal with that waste either.. ;) )).

Germany recently pivoted away from nuclear power (after the Fukushima incident, purely for domestic political reasons). If that was such a great idea, we have to still find out. It probably was. (Most our plants were end of life, and it was about "do we build new ones, or go into a different direction")

Solar has a similar issue, btw. The cells only last for 25 years, and then are electronic waste. Not as hazardous, but disposal is definitely an issue (they arent "green" anymore at that point).

There is a type of nuclear reactor that uses the old spent fuel rods. There is enough old fuel right now to power those reactors for 500 years. Nothing has to be done with the old fuel. Its just sitting there wasting.
 

notimp

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Something is very wrong about this, I have to say... ;)
1PVl0Ke.png


I have to start naming threads less provocatively.. ;)
 
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notimp

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Issue with nucular (Simpsons ;) ) is storage of the burned fuel rods. You put them in barrels, then put them in salt mines, then barrel rots away in 100 years, then salt mine glows, then its on the stone/sediment layers around it, so stuff doesnt go into the water supply. Also you cant relocate, because then you have "nature is best" protesters all over your train tracks.. ;)

Also, other countries wont take your waste.

France still runs 75% on nuclear power according to a quick google, so they done did it. :) Same issues though.

The question for germany was "our nuclear plants are close to "end of life"" - do we build new ones, or look at something different, and they went with "something different, not sure what.. ;)" in the end. Was economically viable, or else they wouldnt have done it. :)
 
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