Homebrew GBA on DSi (Speculation)

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koji2009

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Here are my comments on this that I made in another thread...

QUOTE said:
The amount of wrong information in this thread is absolutely baffling... Let me try and sort this out for you guys...

The DS does have the processing power necessary to "emulate" the GBA in a way (since the hardware is pretty much identical, it's more a matter of mapping matching commands) the problem has never been about the processor, the problem has been with the media (IE, where the rom is stored) and RAM.

A quick explaination of what RAM does... RAM is used to store variables, or things that change as you play. RAM also has another use though, and it's this second use that truly divides GBA from DS... and that is, it can be used to store data for quick access, if the media is expected to take to long to load it.

Now when the GBA was first released... RAM was still relatively pricey for extremely portable electronics so nintendo went with 256k which is miniscule... Programmers really can't do much with that tiny amount of ram, so nintendo, to compensate, had GBA carts manufactured. These carts (like NES/SNES carts before them) had (relatively) fast access times to data, especially random (non-sequential) data. So while the ram on the GBA was incredibly limited, much of the GBA data could quickly and easily be run straight form the cartridge, leaving more of it for the variables necessary for games. The problem with these game cartridges though is that they can be fairly pricey (between 10-20 depending on size with little hope of prices dropping over time) and that meant both nintendo and developers made less money for each game sold.

In comes the DS. Several years later now, RAM prices have dropped considerably and the DS stepped up to 4MB of ram (16x as much as a GBA). This frees up a lot more room for game data to be stored in the RAM so nintendo could thereby skimp on the cartridges. Enter the DS Slot-1 card. These game cards, while able to store more data, also used much slower memory (this is why some DS games have loading screens on occasion, while zero GBA games to my knowledge did) and were much cheaper to make (around 5-10 USD per cart, though that price probably has since dropped as well) so both Nintendo and developers made more money for each game sold making them all much more profitable.

So with that knowledge laid out, let's go back to the original problem of why the DS can't play GBA games from SLOT-1. GBA games are programmed with the belief that if they call data from where the game is stored, it will be executed pretty much instantly. SLOT-1 Devices do not have this ability, they do not have the access speed (especially non-sequentially) that the games require and will thus instantly crash the game.

"But SNES games can be emulated and they are based on cartridges!" Good point! Why do SNES games work but not GBA then? The difference is that SNES games are small, the vast majority under 4MB in size... Exactly the size of the DS's ram. The games work because the entire game is stored in the super fast ram and thus can pull that data as quickly as the game needs. Your typical GBA game, however, is 8-16MB with the largest at 32MB and therefore has no chance of fitting in 4MB.

"But there are SNES games larger than 4MB!" Also true, the author of the emulator uses a couple nifty tricks to handle this... The first and preferred method is if there is a SLOT-2 device with ram, it will use that. The RAM in SLOT-2 is fast enough to handle them. The second, much less preferred way is to freeze the game when it calls for data out of ram. The emulator then clears out a portion of ram and puts that data into play. This has the effect of greatly slowing the game down in certain situations. Now imagine this problem several dozen times worse as GBA games are much larger and would be pulling data not in RAM far more often... yeah... not pretty.

So where does that leave us in general? Well the DSi does have 16MB of RAM, which would mean that there shouldn't be a problem (in theory) of playing the smaller GBA games without any slow down when DSi mode is cracked... but the larger games would still have a problem no doubt.

As for GBA slot-1 on a regular DS... you're not going to get it. No emulator author is going to spend their time on such a project because they know what I've told you all right now, that the RAM constraints (or the data from slot-1 restraints, whichever way you want to look at this problem) are such that there is no software workaround and even if there was one, it would be pointless since you can easily buy a cheap peice of hardware that would make weeks/months worth of work obsolete and run better.

-inhales- Okay... I think that should cover every misconception in this thread... my only fear is that I made it too big and no one will pay attention. If anyone is interested in discussing anything else on this topic, or if anyone would like me to go more in-depth or reexplain something let me know.


(edit) Just a quick amendum, DanthemanMS did have this understanding, I kind of skimmed over a couple of posts when it didn't seem like anyone got it, I still didn't want to delete all of this though as it did take a good portion of my time and it's a bit more explainative and hopefully in simple enough language to follow.

Dizzydoom: By all means, try loading the GBA bios... but I've be completely floored if for some reason nintendo left it in. The BIOS was contained on it's own seperate chip. Though I guess a safer way to test this wouldn't be to try and boot the GBA mode but attempt to dump the GBA bios from DS mode. There are already such programs available and I'd think that a safer avenue since we've already had DS that have gotten stuck in DS mode... think how useless your DSi would be if it accidently got locked in GBA mode.
 

LinkLegend89

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This is uninformed speculation. Can't you load a gba bump on a sd-card on the slot 2 on dsi and magically run that bad boy through your slot-2 flash cart. Is the possibility there? I would like to know. The DSi is way more powerful right? 4x times the RAM and a lot more processing power. Any informed speculation would be welcome.
 

Beige

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LinkLegend89 said:
This is uninformed speculation. Can't you load a gba bump on a sd-card on the slot 2 on dsi and magically run that bad boy through your slot-2 flash cart. Is the possibility there? I would like to know. The DSi is way more powerful right? 4x times the RAM and a lot more processing power. Any informed speculation would be welcome.

1) There is no Slot 2 on the DSi, or any traces for that matter.
2) The DSi is only a little more powerful. More like another 33% or 66% in the CPU. 4x the RAM is right though.
3) DSi mode is not accessible by any means with homebrew, only the 'compatibility' mode for normal DS games. That means the normal DS power and no SD card access.

Considering we do reach DSi mode at some point, an emulator may be possible, but there are no guarantees. This has been asked about many times over, and there is no way we will know until me know more about DSi mode.
 

elenar

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Doing this would be a pure emulation, as the DSi lacks the hardware for GBA games. The DSi might be "way more powerful" but relatively speaking, it's not very powerful at all. Even PC based GBA emulators have requirements far above the specs of the DSi.

It's not an impossible scenario, but writing a GBA emulator to run on the hardware that's currently available through Slot-2 devices on the DSi doesn't seem likely.

Perhaps a slot-2 device with embedded IC's to emulate the GBA hardware, somewhat similar to the movie player that was recently reviewed here on GBATemp would be a more likely solution to this problem. However, considering very few (any?) GBA games have come out in the last 2 years, it seems doubtful that anybody with the technical knowledge to achieve this, would be interested in trying to make it happen.

By which I mean to say, selling a $40 or more device, specifically to play 2-3 year old games on a brand new system, wouldn't be very marketable.
 

Beige

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LinkLegend89 said:
By slot-2, I meant the SD Card slot. My bad for confusion. And what is DSi mode? Sorry for the noob-ass questions.

It's like on the Wii with Wii Mode and Gamecube Mode. They are based on similar hardware (as the DSi is to the DS Lite and Phat) so there isn't any emulation. In fact, all it does is lock the extra RAM and clock down the processor. So, all in all, homebrew can only access 4MB of RAM, 99Mhz, and Slot-1, which are the stats of a normal DS, minus the GBA slot.
 

LinkLegend89

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So if any of this stuff is possible. The only way of playing gba games on dsi is to have a dedicated slot 1 device the the Movie Player device?

Posts merged

Oh OK, so Nintendo locked the extra power?
 

Beige

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LinkLegend89 said:
So if any of this stuff is possible. The only way of playing gba games on dsi is to have a dedicated slot 1 device the the Movie Player device?

Either that, or achieving use of all DSi hardware, unlike the limits we have now. I honestly doubt we will get either. Not feasible enough.
 

DJ91990

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There are a number of people on Youtube that are currently hacking the DSi Software to take advantage of the DSi Hardware. There is an exploit using DS Origin mode and FIFA SOCCER '10.
There is a kid on Youtube that has attempted to hack the DSi and made a, what he called "firmware" and loaded it up on the SD Card, the DS Game Cart is replaced with a DS Cart with a blank icon and is attempting to make "programs" for it.
This same kid is also trying to hack the Photo Channel to read photos that where not taken with the DSi Camera.
Given around a year, the DSi will be hacked, all I have to say is don't update your DSi firmware if you do not plain to purchase any DSi Ware anytime soon.

What I mean to say by this is;
When the DSi Firmware is hacked, we can start working on GBA Emulation on the DSi. If memory is a problem, always try to use an SD Card as extended RAM.

I would like to see GBA ROMs to be able to be ran from the DSi hardware like a channel.

You have to figure, there are some DS games out there that have been originally designed to be on the GBA but they where launched late and where pulled, canceled, and reformatted for use on the DS. (Talking about Black Sagil here.)

Why not make this "GBA ROM RUNNER (GRR)" for the DSi translate the code of the GBA ROM into DSi Code.
My theory is not very clear, but if we could test it, it could be possible.
 

Dizzy Doom

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Well, if you really wanna find out, you have to see if GBA mode is still there. GBA hardware IS there, as it's needed to run DS games. Without GBA mode, you MUST emulate (even though that's not really a problem, it'd be a matter of mapping simmilar commands of ARM7 ing gba mode to ARM9/7 in DS mode. The main problem on emulation on the DSL was the RAM.)
Anyone with a DSi could run this? http://www.cryptosystem.org/projects/nds/gbaswitch.nds
On a DS Phat/L, it boots GBA BIOS, as explained on that page ( http://www.cryptosystem.org/archives/2007/...-mode-switcher/ )
If I'm right, it should boot DSi ond GBA mode, from DS compatibility mode.

If someone is brave enough, you could also try loading the brickers.
 
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