[Discussion+Poll] How are Trump supporters even a thing?

[Pikm]

This is a completely serious question about the "potential" argument. So if the potential of a human is whats important, and killing that potential is evil, then isnt anyone who is not currently having a kid evil, because they have the potential to create life but theyre destroying that potential in a way with the exact same result as abortion.

The human carrying the child also has potential, should you kill that over an unborn child who will grow up without ever knowing their parents?

 

[mashers]

A fetus without brain activity and a tree without brain activity have the same level of sentience. Potential is about as relevant as saying a sperm and egg on opposite ends of a Petri dish has a right to life.

That's very convenient.

A woman has a right to bodily autonomy. It is not an infringement on anyone's rights to say, "You can't use this other person's body," when nobody has a right to another person's body. This is true even if the fetus is sentient, which it is not. If you're going to claim to have made the same point I have, then you have to understand that a right to bodily autonomy means a right to be autonomous.

I couldn't agree less with this viewpoint. Lack of capacity should not imply lack of rights. That's why we have the mental capacity act (in the UK at least) which protects people who are unable to self-advocate. Even the most profoundly disabled person who may have no cognitive ability to speak of has rights under this law. But according to abortion enthusiasts, it's apparently OK to say "this foetus is too young to decide whether to live or die, so we'll choose on its behalf". I don't think that's right.

 

[bi388]

The human carrying the child also has potential, should you kill that over an unborn child who will grow up without ever knowing their parents?

Im not making a pro or anti abortion statement. Im asking people who say the potential is what matters whether it isnt then wrong for them to not be having a kid since theyre 'killing' a potential child.

 

[Pluupy]

But seriously in regards to the abortion debate that has devoured the thread thus far, as a female I won't hesitate to get an abortion if I cannot offer a life a child requires and support myself at the same time. Fetuses are literally attached to the women's body, and are thus an extension.

(and honestly, even after birth, all human babies can do is support themselves structurally but cannot provide for themselves--continuing to prove they are leeches until they can comprehend their environment and attain a form of sustenance on their own)

Besides that, the one thing that I hate about prolifers is that they place WAY too much value in life. They act as if EVERYONE will become some super genius scientist who will cure cancer. No, they won't. People need to stop acting like everyone is special. We're animals, FFS. Go to a graveyard or war site and see how insignificant your life is. In a hundred years or so, I wouldn't even be surprised if we could make synthetic humans on a factory line sooner than robots.

 

[8BitWonder]

Not pro trump myself, but your poll seems kind of one-sided. It would be fair to add a "genuinely agree/support him" option, but that's just my opinion. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Engert]

You're missing an option in your poll:

They're enjoying the show.

And that's all American politics is. A show.

 

[Jack Daniels]

That's very convenient.


I couldn't agree less with this viewpoint. Lack of capacity should not imply lack of rights. That's why we have the mental capacity act (in the UK at least) which protects people who are unable to self-advocate. Even the most profoundly disabled person who may have no cognitive ability to speak of has rights under this law. But according to abortion enthusiasts, it's apparently OK to say "this foetus is too young to decide whether to live or die, so we'll choose on its behalf". I don't think that's right.

you're male right...

• have you tried to get in to the other posistion?
• a child is only sepperated from body when it got blood circulation, before that state it's just bio tissieu, so the argument of being a person is incorrect.
• ever seen an unloved child? it'll break your heart
• like i said before, if there something put in your body whithout your consent, hope i write this correct, you want this removed right? well go figure if that something is a futus.

 

[mashers]

you're male right...

Yes.

• have you tried to get in to the other position?

Of a female? Well of course I would try to empathise in a specific situation, but it would not change my opinion on the subject in general.

• a child is only sepperated from body when it got blood circulation, before that state it's just bio tissieu, so the argument of being a person is incorrect.

Says who? Who gets to decide that it's enough of a person not to be summarily terminated?

• ever seen an unloved child? it'll break your heart

I've been through the adoption assessment process, and work with young children with disabilities. So yes, I've seen, heard about and met some awful situations. I don't really see how that is relevant to this discussion though.

• like i said before, if there something put in your body whithout your consent, hope i write this correct, you want this removed right? well go figure if that something is a futus.

I've answered this particular aspect of the discussion above.

 

[Jack Daniels]

Yes.


Of a female? Well of course I would try to empathise in a specific situation, but it would not change my opinion on the subject in general.


Says who? Who gets to decide that it's enough of a person not to be summarily terminated?


I've been through the adoption assessment process, and work with young children with disabilities. So yes, I've seen, heard about and met some awful situations. I don't really see how that is relevant to this discussion though.


I've answered this particular aspect of the discussion above.

happy to know you're not female and don't understand what i try to tell... you get the idea, but you judge people in situations you can't even begin to understand...

 

[mashers]

happy to know you're not female and don't understand what i try to tell... you get the idea, but you judge people in situations you can't even begin to understand...

So because I'm not female I'm not allowed to have an opinion about it? Sorry but that's ridiculous.

 

[Pluupy]

IMO, men shouldn't even be allowed to enter this debate. They cannot even comprehend the concept of the child-bearing process in one's body. The ideal of motherhood, conscious and/or instinctual, that is forced upon women is the biggest problem in abortion. Pro-lifers treat women like cattle.

 

[Lacius]

So does abortion. Abortion says, "adult lives are more important than unborn children". Also, do you really think it's unreasonable to elevate the life of a human child above a single-cell infectious disease or a worm?

Adult lives are more important than unborn fetuses. Adult bodily autonomy is more important than unborn fetuses. In the vast majority of abortion cases, the fetus is not sentient, and the rights of the sentient infinitely outweigh the rights of the non-sentient.

I should also point out that you've made the distinction between a single-cell infectious disease and a pregnancy, but when we're talking about an abortion, we're often talking about something that's barely more than a clump of unspecialized cells.

Yes I understand the concept. My point remains though that a foetus is a parasite which is intended to be there. The female body has evolved specifically to be able to contain it and allow it to grow, whereas it will attempt to destroy any other parasites or intruders into it.

Although it's irrelevant to the conversation because a woman is the arbiter of what belongs in her body, women's bodies have immune responses against fetuses all the time, causing miscarriages and other problems. Blood type disparity alone can cause a lethal immune response.

I assume you're talking about rape. I realise it's a very sensitive subject but this is another example of valuing one life over another: "I didn't want the child, I was assaulted and now have to carry a child and birth it, and that is too traumatic. My need is paramount so I will kill the child to avoid further trauma." I'm not saying I know the answer to this situation, I'm just making the point that even in this situation abortion is saying that one person's life is more important than another.

A woman, regardless of whether or not she was raped, has to consent to allowing something to further violate her bodily autonomy. Anything else would be a violation of that autonomy and another form of rape.

You keep calling a fetus a child and a person. It has not yet developed into these things. I'd like to know when specifically you think something becomes a person with rights.

I couldn't agree less with this viewpoint. Lack of capacity should not imply lack of rights. That's why we have the mental capacity act (in the UK at least) which protects people who are unable to self-advocate. Even the most profoundly disabled person who may have no cognitive ability to speak of has rights under this law. But according to abortion enthusiasts, it's apparently OK to say "this foetus is too young to decide whether to live or die, so we'll choose on its behalf". I don't think that's right.

Your conflating my position on a fetus with no cognitive abilities and a mentally disabled person with diminished cognitive abilities. I'm saying that if something has the same cognitive ability as someone who is brain dead, that thing has no rights. I've also said numerous times that the cognitive abilities of a fetus are irrelevant when we approach this from a bodily rights argument.

Of a female? Well of course I would try to empathise in a specific situation, but it would not change my opinion on the subject in general.

You and I are in a hospital. You're perfectly healthy, and I am dying. I need a kidney to survive the week. You are my only match. Should you be required by law to give me your kidney?

 

[mashers]

Ok, well I've made my points. I respect everyone's right to have their own opinion and had hoped others would do the same, but if this is going to become a matter of 'you shouldn't even be able to voice your opinion' then there's really no point continuing this discussion.

 

[Lacius]

Ok, well I've made my points. I respect everyone's right to have their own opinion and had hoped others would do the same, but if this is going to become a matter of 'you shouldn't even be able to voice your opinion' then there's really no point continuing this discussion.

Please answer my hypothetical situation at the bottom of my last post.

 

[brickmii82]

Dissatisfaction with American legislators is the primary reason Mr Trump has such a significant support following. Much as was the case with President Obama, many see him as an "outsider". His supporters believe he will best serve their own interests, and not just his political constituents. There has been a very "clique" atmosphere in DC for awhile now.


As for abortion, I don't agree with it personally. If I'm involved with a woman who is pregnant with my child, I will vehemently pursue a course of birthing, and sole custody if she does not want children. I love my children, and have even adopted a beautiful girl to raise as my own also. However, I qualify as no ones judge, therefore they are entitled to their choices as I am to mine. I don't feel anyone has a right to condone/condemn a person for choices such as abortion. It's a choice for the fetus' responsible parties to make, not mine or yours.

 

[TarkinMX]

Your poll is somewhat idiotic, leaving a trump supporter no room to feel good about themselves and with that said it seems like your trying to push your opinion on people. You like much of America want others to think the same way you do and I'm sure that you get your opinion from those that you spend time with, whether it be family, friends, teachers or idles. What I see you doing here is an age old thing and is no different than someone trying to accuse a Christian of pushing their opinions on others which sadly they're not the only ones that do it. We have so many rights activist groups that do this every day, whether it's the LBGT community, black lives matter, KKK, black panthers, Jehovah's witnesses, scientologists, extreme republicans, extreme democrats, anarchists, libetarians or any other group that thinks their opinion is right and yours is wrong. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, why are you trying to force yours? Personally I think both Hillary and trump are idiots. Hillary has just as many skeletons in the closet that trump does and Bernie is just an all around idiot. I very much dislike any political figure that pushes for socialism and think that they're hurting our nation more than helping. Why you may ask? It's because socialism isn't much different from communism and I'd hate to see this country go that route after fighting communism for so many years.

 

[ric.]

Wow I can't believe people have different opinions than I do. Don't they know it's the CURRENT YEAR? How dare people have different opinions, that kind of thing shouldn't be allowed in the CURRENT YEAR. Come on people!

 

[Ricken]

Its either Trump or Hillary and some people just don't trust Hillary due to her past
I'm not too trusting of her, but I really don't like Trump
Ugh

 

[bi388]

Personally Im voting Jill Stein. I know she doesnt have a chance this election, but if she got double digits it would give her mainstream attention and maybe she could win next election after the likely disaster of Hillary/Trump.

 

[Jack Daniels]

Ok, well I've made my points. I respect everyone's right to have their own opinion and had hoped others would do the same, but if this is going to become a matter of 'you shouldn't even be able to voice your opinion' then there's really no point continuing this discussion.

sure you can.. and i will accept it as being as it is.. just since it came close, it happened in my fam. i felt the need to defend her as a person who did what she felt needed to do... her emotions couldn't handle the situation you know...