Covid-19 vaccine

[_47iscool]

Never.

 

[Lacius]

Never.

The vaccines have been demonstrated to be safe and effective, and they're highly recommended, regardless of what else these companies have done unrelated to COVID-19.

It should also be noted that, while other vaccines Moderna put forth allegedly didn't make it past Phase 3 trials, the COVID-19 vaccine did.

 

[_47iscool]

The vaccines have been demonstrated to be safe and effective, and they're highly recommended, regardless of what else these companies have done unrelated to COVID-19.

It should also be noted that, while other vaccines Moderna put forth allegedly didn't make it past Phase 3 trials, the COVID-19 vaccine did.

Apparently you and I have been reading different news.

 

[tabzer]

No, I've demonstrated it numerous times throughout this thread by providing facts and supporting evidence for those facts.

Nope. The only thing I've seen you demonstrate to that degree is the willingness to misrepresent facts and try to play on emotions of those who wouldn't know better.

 

[Lacius]

Apparently you and I have been reading different news.

That may be true. I suggest you look at the science.

• https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety/safety-of-vaccines.html
• https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/safety.html
• https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/work.html
• https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/covid-19/effectiveness-research/protocols.html

Nope. The only thing I've seen you demonstrate to that degree is the willingness to misrepresent facts and try to play on emotions of those who wouldn't know better.

I haven't misrepresented facts, and it is not my fault if the facts elicit an emotional response. Please make sure you tag me or respond to me directly if you have anything to argue other than "nuh uh" or have any good evidence you finally want to provide.

 

[SG854]

People are angry and calling others idiots for not taking the vaccine. Some are even outright saying that they are being immoral. This is a sign that expectations or hopes were somehow betrayed. People try to be coercive because they want authority but don't have it.

Of course nobody is mentioning that they want to be in control... but the desire is clearly present.

You are using bad logic. People are calling you an idiot for your logic and you continuing to refuse to listen after they have explained to you many times. You are bad at looking at facts and evidence. And you are bad at separating bad evidence from good ones. You have no idea how to do proper research. You think you do, but that's because you don't know how to do research properly.

 

[_47iscool]

@Lacius

The CDC isn't entirely trustworthy.

 

[Lacius]

@Lacius

The CDC isn't entirely trustworthy.

I'm not asking you to blindly trust anybody, not even the CDC. I'm saying to look at the facts. The CDC cites their sources, and they aren't presenting anything the broader medical community isn't also presenting.

That all being said, the CDC has generally been a trustworthy public health agency in recent times.

 

[_47iscool]

@Lacius

 

[tabzer]

I haven't misrepresented facts,

Here is you, misrepresenting facts:

AMA study (it's a PDF): https://www.ama-assn.org/system/files/2021-06/physician-vaccination-study-topline-report.pdf
96% of doctors have been vaccinated and recommend getting vaccinated.

That survey, represents a a specific group of physicians and the survey is nothing about a recommendation.

I've already gone over the many times you overemphasize safety and omit side-effects, to degrees greater than the CDC does, and we know they already do the bare minimum, or less.

and it is not my fault if the facts elicit an emotional response.

Saying people are behaving immorally is an intent to elicit emotional response. You can argue that it is not your fault if it actually does.

You are using bad logic. People are calling you an idiot for your logic and you refusing to listen after they have explained to you. You are bad at looking at facts and evidence. And you are bad at separating bad evidence from good ones. You have no idea how to do proper research. You think you do, but that's because you don't know how to do research properly.

You may not like what I say, but it doesn't mean it's illogical even if you say so. Maybe you didn't understand what was being said in the first place. Cherry picking evidence is not really an option if you are concerned with facts. What do you mean good evidence vs. bad evidence?

 

[Lacius]

@_47iscool A person who is vaccinated cannot be "patented," "owned," or "lose their human rights." The mRNA vaccines don't even change a person's DNA.

That survey, represents a a specific group of physicians and the survey is nothing about a recommendation.

The survey results I cited comport with other surveys that also tackle the topic of recommendation as well as personal vaccination. Depending on the survey you look at, and when the surveys were conducted, something between 80-96% of doctors have gotten vaccinated and recommend getting vaccinated if one is medically able to do so. The approximately 80% number can usually be found from around December-January, with the 96% number coming from June. As it is more contemporaneous, I use the 96% number. You are correct that this survey does not include a specific question about whether or not the doctor recommends getting vaccinated, but it's a stretch to think a doctor would get vaccinated without recommending vaccination. My point was the results of the survey demonstrate that doctors broadly think the COVID-19 vaccines are safe and effective, and they're leading by example. It is not a misrepresentation of the facts to say the survey shows 96% of American doctors receiving and generally recommending the COVID-19 vaccine. I have also already explained how the survey is generally representative of American doctors as a whole.

Edit: Do you have evidence of the broader medical community thinking the vaccines aren't safe/effective/recommended? I'd rather we focus on that and not get distracted.

Saying people are behaving immorally is an intent to elicit emotional response.

It isn't an intent to elicit an emotional response, and even if it were, it's irrelevant to whether or not the statement is true.

Edit: Do you have any good counterargument that failure to get vaccinated isn't immoral? I'd rather we focus on that and not get distracted.

You may not like what I say, but it doesn't mean it's illogical even if you say so.

Nobody is saying something is illogical just because they say so. People often call what you say "illogical" because it's actually illogical.

Edit: Do you have any evidence that your arguments are logical? I'd rather we focus on that and not get distracted.

Cherry picking evidence is not really an option if you are concerned with facts.

I truthfully haven't seen anyone in this thread cherry-pick evidence except you. Your cherry-picked evidence includes the discredited Association of American Physicians and Surgeons and a single alleged doctor, all while ignoring the broad medical consensus from every reputable medical group I'm aware of that the vaccines are highly safe, highly effective, and highly recommended.

Edit: Do you have any evidence that isn't cherry-picked? I'd rather we focus on that and not get distracted.

 

[_47iscool]

@Lacius
I heard it does. I hear it causes the immune system to attack itself.

 

[Lacius]

I heard it does.

It demonstrably does not. That is not how mRNA vaccines work. I suggest you do some research, get vaccinated as soon as possible, and consult your doctor if you have any questions about how the vaccine might affect you personally.

I hear it causes the immune system to attack itself.

There is no evidence that the COVID-19 vaccines can lead to autoimmune disease, but there is evidence that COVID-19 itself might directly cause autoimmunity. This is one more of many reasons why you should get vaccinated as soon as possible.

 

[_47iscool]

@Lacius Chancing paralyses to having your skin peel off, no thanks.

Also it is hypocritical of the media to claim you should wear a mask and then taking photos of themselves and their of friends mask-less.

 

[Lacius]

Chancing paralyses to having your skin peel off, no thanks.

The risks associated with the vaccines are significant less probable and less severe than the risks associated with contracting COVID-19.

Regarding the risks of facial paralysis, there is no demonstrated risk of facial paralysis with the mRNA vaccines, and the risks of facial paralysis associated with vaccines like the J&J vaccine are vanishingly small and no different than these same risks with other vaccines we've been using for decades.

With regard to skin peeling after getting a vaccine, these risks are very rare, and there's no evidence of any skin reactions in response to a COVID-19 vaccine that are dangerous or slow to fully heal.

 

[Alexander1970]

Hello.



No,I also do not want Flu Vaccines.
My still intact Immune System is too valuable for me to be destroyed by certain Chemicals / Poisons and Viruses = Vaccines.

If People want it,of course,please,they should get it,please.

Update - Still the same Opinion.

 

[LumInvader]

If you think a survey of physicians is not credible

It's a survey from the wacky right-wing AAPS, an organization that is not recognized as credible by the medical community and barred from major medical indexes; thus, it's surveys aren't recognized as credible or representative of most physicians.

because of the demographic

AAPS: 4k members (Right-wing physicians\Right-wing non-physicians)
AMA: 240k members (Physicians balanced across the political spectrum)

tabzer keeps mentioning the word demographic, yet he concealed the size disparity between AMA and the "demographic" he chose to source, fallaciously presenting AAPS as an equivalent sized voice. Kudos to Lacius for exposing this deception.

Physicians are people with a variety of concerns and focuses. Some are in the AAPS.

AAPS is a political advocacy group with streamlined concerns and focuses that are based on junk science. Not comparable.

You are using ad-hominem to disregard the results of the survey. That's rejecting some facts in favor of other facts to curate an imaginary narrative that %96 of all physicians have taken and recommend the vaccine.

Strawman. tabzer's fallacious narrative conveniently ignores:

- A left-wing political advocacy group wasn't used or even acknowledged as a necessary statistical counter-balance to the right-wing views of AAPS.
- The unknown number of overlapping physicians who belong to both AMA and AAPS, like Tom Price, which suggests that an unknown portion of the AAPS study may serve as a subset of the AMA study.
- The number of AAPS members who are actual physicians, which is unknown since AAPS pads their paltry membership total with non-physicians.
- AMA is over 60x larger than AAPS.
- Statistical accounting for AMA (60x), AAPS (1x), the hypothetical left-wing political advocacy group (1x), and physician overlap would drop AMA's 96% survey down by 0% to 1% at best.

tabzer claims ad-hominem, but his argument is statistically insignificant, fallacious, and serves only to confirm his status as a misinformation peddler.

AAPS junk science in a nutshell:

Oratory—or hypnotic induction?
https://aapsonline.org/oratory-or-hypnotic-induction/

Is Barack Obama a brilliant orator, captivating millions through his eloquence? Or is he deliberately using the techniques of neurolinguistic programming (NLP), a covert form of hypnosis developed by Milton Erickson, M.D.?

Obama actually said at one time: “a light will shine down from somewhere, it will light upon you, you will experience an epiphany, and you will say to yourself, ‘I have to vote for Barack.’”

You will not choose to vote for Barack: you will “have to.” It is not a logical choice, but rather one directed by a mystical (subconscious) force. What purpose would a politician have for making such a statement? Obama used it only once. Perhaps he stopped either because he realized it was too obvious or because Hillary Clinton and John McCain ridiculed him for it.

Obama’s logo is noteworthy. It is always there, a small one in the middle of the podium, providing a point of visual fixation. Unlike other presidential logos, one looks through it, not at it. It might just be the letter “O,” but it also resembles a crystal ball, a favorite of hypnotists.

Obama is clearly having a powerful effect on people, especially young people and highly educated people—both considered to be especially susceptible to hypnosis. It is also interesting that many Jews are supporting a candidate who is endorsed by Hamas, Farakhan, Khalidi, and Iran.

While some believe that hypnosis is not real, others believe that it is very powerful, and very dangerous in the wrong hands. Dr. Erickson, father of modern hypnosis, was adamant that his techniques should only be used by physicians. In 1954, the U.S. Supreme Court decided in Leyra v. Denno that a confession obtained using hypnosis could not be used against the suspect in court.

A 66-page, extensively footnoted but unsigned article “An Examination of Obama’s Use of Hidden Hypnosis Techniques in His Speeches” is available at: <bs link snipped>

Like it or not, the [AAPS] survey I linked to is credible.

 

[Lacius]

Update - Still the same Opinion.

1. Vaccines are safe, effective, and recommended. They are far safer on your body and immune system than being exposed to the pathogen you're being vaccinated against.
2. Equating chemicals and poisons appears to be a fallacious appeal to nature.
3. Equating viruses and vaccines appears to demonstrate a misunderstanding of what vaccines are and how they work.

 

[_47iscool]

To each their own. I will not take it.

 

[Lacius]

To each their own. I will not take it.

By not getting the vaccine, you are accepting an increased risk of contracting COVID-19, an increased risk of suffering serious or even deadly symptoms, and an increased risk of spreading the disease to other people. It is in your best interest to get vaccinated, and you have a moral imperative to get vaccinated because of how it affects the people around you.