Covid-19 vaccine

[WG481]

Nope.

And it's none of my business that your dad has a disease.

I've already presented Japan's history with vaccines having ridiculous results with approved vaccines. It's not anti-science to acknowledge the failure of institutions.

And it's none of my business you're an idiot.

Nobody gives a shite if Japan failed at one time or another. People have improved vaccinations for the last, I dunno, three hundred years since we used to snort smallpox scabs like crack cocaine to become immune. Please, for the love of gosh, you have been disproved several hundreds of times by several people. Please cease to spread misinformation, false sources, and unreliable news information like a third-grader with Wikipedia.

 

[silien3]

It's, er, everyone's business m'lad. My dad has no left lung function, so if some arsehole isn't vaccinated and/or has COVID, they pose a danger to him and the rest of my family with genetic lung disease. Once again, please stop with this blasphemous anti-vaccination stuff you human equivalent of a participation award when there is science behind every last needle.

Getting mad at you for spreading dangerous misinformation does not invalidate the fact that you don’t have evidence for your claims. Provide some sources to your posts, any of them. Provide a source countering herd immunity. Provide a source that unvaccinated people aren’t a danger to their community. Provide sources, back up you claims for once. Or are just going to just keep shifting the burden of proof and pleading ignorance when people call you out on your shit?

So those who are allergic or not entitled to the vaccine because too much risk for them can die for your collective immunity which does not exist and will never exist because the virus is linked to the life of all I will not burn the tree or plant of the world or kill an animal or the insects of the world and destroy all traces of them for you personally with or without people who do not want to be vaccinated a virus is like any organism in the world and will always be present your way of seeing things looks like the nazi

and witch hunts finally that's what I understand but I may have misunderstood somewhere

 

[tabzer]

And it's none of my business you're an idiot.

Nobody gives a shite if Japan failed at one time or another. People have improved vaccinations for the last, I dunno, three hundred years since we used to snort smallpox scabs like crack cocaine to become immune. Please, for the love of gosh, you have been disproved several hundreds of times by several people. Please cease to spread misinformation, false sources, and unreliable news information like a third-grader with Wikipedia.

I haven't been proven wrong. But considering that your entire comment seems to be satire, I will recount the time you claimed to be here to spread propaganda.

 

[WG481]

I haven't been proven wrong. But considering that your entire comment seems to be satire, I will recount the time you claimed to be here to spread propaganda.

Heck yeah, that's my job.

 

[The Catboy]

So those who are allergic or not entitled to the vaccine because too much risk for them can die for your collective immunity which does not exist and will never exist because the virus is linked to the life of all I will not burn the tree or plant of the world or kill an animal or the insects of the world and destroy all traces of them for you personally with or without people who do not want to be vaccinated a virus is like any organism in the world and will always be present your way of seeing things looks like the nazi

and witch hunts finally that's what I understand but I may have misunderstood somewhere

Oh boy, it's almost like I said that before in another post right here.
That being said, you really don't seem to understand how herd immunity works nor how it's already had an impact on virus spreading in the past. Herd immunity is the best means of preventing the spread of a virus and protect the community. Willfully and deliberately not getting vaccinated when someone can do so, is posing a threat to the community.

 

[BitMasterPlus]

Anti-vaxx, pro choice vaxx or not, you can't force people to take anything they don't want to. Can't for me or anyone else. And if you think you can, you can try, but you'll end up worse off if you come near me~

 

[The Catboy]

Anti-vaxx, pro choice vaxx or not, you can't force people to take anything they don't want to. Can't for me or anyone else. And if you think you can, you can try, but you'll end up worse off if you come near me~

No one is going to force you to stop being stupid

 

[notimp]

vaccinate it has always been said to be for prevention and not 100 percent reliable but you can still get it the virus and spread it without having the symptoms moreover no virus or disease is removed with a vaccine it is always there in nature somewhere but trying to blame the anti covid vaccine is the only thing you want here at least its what i understand

Here is what you are missing. With mutations of Covid, the production of antibodies after vaccination drops by a factor of 2.something (Delta variant) and 4 (some African variant, thats not as wide spread yet, partly because its not as contagious as delta). The Delta varient also increased R (the reproduction number) meaning its more contagious, than the original covid, meaning, for herd immunity to work - you'd need higher vaccination percentages in the population (about 85% by now), to also saveguard people that arent vaccinated (children under 5 f.e.).

So here is what happens in a little more detail - mRNA vaccines took the spike protein of the original covid (the one it penetrates your bodies cells with) and designed it onto a malign (useless, not harmfull) influenza virus (one that humans dont even get influenza from). Thats the one you are injected with (if you get a mRNA vaccine) Immune response to that is about 10 fold after full vaccination. Mutation (delta variant) comes along and immune response drops by a factor of two, because delta 'looks different' to the immune system. Drop by a factor of two should still be enough to grant about 40-60% (if I've read that correctly, its early - not enough studies at scale yet) immunity (compaired to the control group - meaning, you have to add a few percent judging on the individual level) and about 80% if you add non symptomatic infection. (Thats the average from mRNA fully vaccinated, and vector vaccines fully vacinated. mRNA vaccines - two shots, should bring you to 90% immunity and or non symptomatic infection.)

Difference: Immunity is when you arent even infectious (not reproducing the virus). Non symptomatic infection is when you are not showing any symptoms, but are still infectious for a while.

Why so many mutations? Basically, because influenza viruses have a tendency to mutate quite fast. (Flu shot has to be adjusted every year.)

Other viruses dont have that tendency. So vaccination great (lifelong immunity, or booster shot every two years or six years, or so). Influenza viruses - as Covid probably needs a booster shot every year. But maybe not, but every two years, ... Booster candidates have already been produced by Pfizer and Moderna, and are currently in evaluation. (State has to decide if it makes sense).

That said - even with 80% asymptomatic infections - it helps in protecting against "grave progression" of illness and "long covid" and you are producing a much lower virus load, so you are less infectious to others.

Hope everythings a bit clearer now.


Aside: We arent reaching 85% or 90% vaccination rate this year (or in some countries ever). So its likely that you'll see increased mitigation measures again this winter (mask wearing, maybe curfews and or quarantines -- with a target (why are we doing this?) not to have emergency rooms overwhelmed). In future years, with vaccines targeting the 'variant (mutation) of the day better' vaccination rate needed might be able to drop to 60-70% again, for the people not getting vaccinated also being protected by a herd effect. We'll see.

How that works: If you have "one person infects three others" in place growth rate is exponential. But if a certain percentage of your population is vaccinated so that growth rate drops to "two people infect one other" propagation is stopped and reversed. So at that point even people not getting vaccinated are protected, by others getting vaccinated, because infection isnt growing anymore, its regressing. But it also is dependant on R (reproduction rate - how many other people is one person infecting, which varies by mutation).

Also: Vaccinations are needed for protection currently - because mutations are so wide spread by the end of this year, that a person already having had Covid is somewhat likely to catch the mutation again.

Two times (mRNA, not needed with Johnson & Johnson f.e. - although I dont know the protection percantage of J&J against the delta varient) vaccinated people (with current vaccines) have a much higher immune response against delta (even though it is halved in effectiveness compared to original covid), than people who already got Covid (old variant) once.

And people who had covid once, and get one shot of mRNA. Are even better off. (Because mRNA boosts antibodies, but they also got T cells immune response, from when they were sick, which apparently is a great combo).

Problematic sideeffects (from mRNA at least) are at 1:700.000 and mostly seen in women (anecdotal, dont trust me on that.. ), so the breakdown is: Get vaccinated.

Source: Me reading stuff.. (Newspapers mainly.)

edit: Correction: In the posting I incorrectly called Covid an influenza virus (as pointed out by regnad), that was a mistake on my part, they are different viruses (its even in the name), with similar properties in a few important instances relevant to the argument I was making. Namely propagation path (droplets and aerosols), derived from that mutation likelyhood, and symptoms (on a surface level). They are not the same virus family though. The mistake was made by me remembering, leaning more than a year ago, that vaccine candidates would likely have to be renewed annually or semi-annually, like influenza viruses. And then making the faulty logic leap. Pure mistake on my part.

 

[ut2k4master]

Anti-vaxx, pro choice vaxx or not, you can't force people to take anything they don't want to. Can't for me or anyone else. And if you think you can, you can try, but you'll end up worse off if you come near me~

you really sound like a stable genius and not crazy at all...

 

[KingVamp]

He is not "bullying" people to not get the vaccine?

 

[Lacius]

If the vaccine doesn't work because herd immunity isn't being reached, then it's not a real vaccination. Ideals vs reality.

The vaccines have been demonstrated to be very effective, but when a large portion of the population chooses not to get vaccinated, they continue to spread the disease at high rates, increasing the likelihood that breakthrough infections among the vaccinated will occur, and increasing the likelihood that they will spread the disease to people who are unvaccinated for medical/age reasons. Please read up on herd immunity.

We don't want people to get the disease, whether they're vaccinated or not.

 

[regnad]

Here is what you are missing. With mutations of Covid, the production of antibodies after vaccination drops by a factor of 2.something (Delta variant) and 4 (some African variant, thats not as wide spread yet, partly because its not as contagious as delta). The Delta varient also increased R (the reproduction number) meaning its more contagious, than the original covid, meaning, for herd immunity to work - you'd need higher vaccination percentages in the population (about 85% by now), to also saveguard people that arent vaccinated (children under 5 f.e.).

So here is what happens in a little more detail - mRNA vaccines took the spike protein of the original covid (the one it penetrates your bodies cells with) and designed it onto a malign (useless, not harmfull) influenza virus (one that humans dont even get influenza from). Thats the one you are injected with (if you get a mRNA vaccine) Immune response to that is about 10 fold after full vaccination. Mutation (delta variant) comes along and immune response drops by a factor of two, because delta 'looks different' to the immune system. Drop by a factor of two should still be enough to grant about 40-60% (if I've read that correctly, its early - not enough studies at scale yet) immunity (compaired to the control group - meaning, you have to add a few percent judging on the individual level) and about 80% if you add non symptomatic infection. (Thats the average from mRNA fully vaccinated, and vector vaccines fully vacinated. mRNA vaccines - two shots, should bring you to 90% immunity and or non symptomatic infection.)

Difference: Immunity is when you arent even infectious (not reproducing the virus). Non symptomatic infection is when you are not showing any symptoms, but are still infectious for a while.

Why so many mutations? Basically, because influenza viruses have a tendency to mutate quite fast. (Flu shot has to be adjusted every year.)

Other viruses dont have that tendency. So vaccination great (lifelong immunity, or booster shot every two years or six years, or so). Influenza viruses - as Covid probably needs a booster shot every year. But maybe not, but every two years, ... Booster candidates have already been produced by Pfizer and Moderna, and are currently in evaluation. (State has to decide if it makes sense).

That said - even with 80% asymptomatic infections - it helps in protecting against "grave progression" of illness and "long covid" and you are producing a much lower virus load, so you are less infectious to others.

Hope everythings a bit clearer now.


Aside: We arent reaching 85% or 90% vaccination rate this year (or in some countries ever). So its likely that you'll see increased mitigation measures again this winter (mask wearing, maybe curfews and or quarantines -- with a target (why are we doing this?) not to have emergency rooms overwhelmed). In future years, with vaccines targeting the 'variant (mutation) of the day better' vaccination rate needed might be able to drop to 60-70% again, for the people not getting vaccinated also being protected by a herd effect. We'll see.

How that works: If you have "one person infects three others" in place growth rate is exponential. But if a certain percentage of your population is vaccinated so that growth rate drops to "two people infect one other" propagation is stopped and reversed. So at that point even people not getting vaccinated are protected, by others getting vaccinated, because infection isnt growing anymore, its regressing. But it also is dependant on R (reproduction rate - how many other people is one person infecting, which varies by mutation).

Also: Vaccinations are needed for protection currently - because mutations are so wide spread by the end of this year, that a person already having had Covid is somewhat likely to catch the mutation again.

Two times (mRNA, not needed with Johnson & Johnson f.e. - although I dont know the protection percantage of J&J against the delta varient) vaccinated people (with current vaccines) have a much higher immune response against delta (even though it is halved in effectiveness compared to original covid), than people who already got Covid (old variant) once.

And people who had covid once, and get one shot of mRNA. Are even better off. (Because mRNA boosts antibodies, but they also got T cells immune response, from when they were sick, which apparently is a great combo).

Problematic sideeffects (from mRNA at least) are at 1:700.000 and mostly seen in women (anecdotal, dont trust me on that.. ), so the breakdown is: Get vaccinated.

Source: Me reading stuff.. (Newspapers mainly.)

Why are you calling covid an influenza virus? While both corona viruses and influenza viruses use RNA, a shit ton of viruses use RNA, including HIV and Ebola, which thankfully both have very low mutation rates. Influenza viruses are elipsoidal Orthomyxoviridae, and corona viruses are ball-shaped Orthocoronavirinae. They are unrelated viruses. You cannot draw any conclusions about corona virus mutation rates by comparing them to influenza viruses.

 

[tabzer]

The vaccines have been demonstrated to be very effective, but when a large portion of the population chooses not to get vaccinated, they continue to spread the disease at high rates, increasing the likelihood that breakthrough infections among the vaccinated will occur, and increasing the likelihood that they will spread the disease to people who are unvaccinated for medical/age reasons. Please read up on herd immunity.

We don't want people to get the disease, whether they're vaccinated or not.

Herd immunity isn't something that can be forced or expected without crossing ethical lines. If you are happy that you took the vaccine, then I am happy for you.

 

[Lacius]

Herd immunity isn't something that can be forced or expected without crossing ethical lines.

Nobody here is talking about forcing vaccination. It's disingenuous to argue as though that's the issue.

 

[tabzer]

Nobody here is talking about forcing vaccination. It's disingenuous to argue as though that's the issue.

People are angry and calling others idiots for not taking the vaccine. Some are even outright saying that they are being immoral. This is a sign that expectations or hopes were somehow betrayed. People try to be coercive because they want authority but don't have it.

Of course nobody is mentioning that they want to be in control... but the desire is clearly present.

 

[Lacius]

and calling others idiots for not taking the vaccine.

They are being idiotic.

Some are even outright saying that they are being immoral.

They are acting immorally.

 

[tabzer]

They are being idiotic.
They are acting immorally.

You are too proud. The fact is that they don't know what you know and you don't know what they know. Assuming that it's one-sided puts you in the same camp.

 

[Lacius]

You are too proud. The fact is that they don't know what you know and you don't know what they know. Assuming that it's one-sided puts you in the same camp.

I've demonstrated how not getting vaccinated, if you're medically able to do so, is idiotic and immoral. If you want to argue otherwise, present your argument and evidence.

 

[tabzer]

I've demonstrated how not getting vaccinated, if you're medically able to do so, is idiotic and immoral. If you want to argue otherwise, present your argument and evidence.

You've claimed it, not demonstrated it. Not succumbing to the disease is a proof beyond your capability. Don't be envious.

 

[Lacius]

You've claimed it, not demonstrated it. Not succumbing to the disease is a proof beyond your capability. Don't be envious.

No, I've demonstrated it numerous times throughout this thread by providing facts and supporting evidence for those facts.