The benefits of Brexit - the future of the United Kingdom

Doran754 · Jun 13, 2019

Taleweaver said:
It's no secret I'm for the remain campaign, but with us more or less staying neighbors, there's no point in making things personal. I'm not the EU and you're not the UK. To my understanding, we're residents trying to see why our countries are slipping apart.

I agree, I'll change the rhetoric, It really isn't you vs me and I dont see it that way. In the last 12 months I've been to Germany Portugal Spain and Benidorm, and after the UK leaves the EU that won't change. I love europe and being apart of Europe. I start to talk the way I was when I feel attacked - when I'm basically told "oh wow you must hate us and europe if you're leaving so we'll punish you" and it's just not the case. I'm basically sick of people on the left acting like they're better and morally superior.

The main problem started with the fact a remainer was made PM and the fact the EU never and still doesn't want us to leave. This has allowed the situation to fester and leave lingering hopes the UK will remain, when we really won't. At this point we can't, the damage done if we don't leave now will be astronomical. It could've been sorted years ago. All that had to happen was we both agree a FTA agreement. That's it. Unfortunately and I do put this down to the EU - they didn't want that, They wanted to punish the UK to show us we were 'wrong' and to make sure nobody else dared to leave. That's why the negotiations have gone so badly.

I strongly believe the only way out of this mess now is to leave on WTO terms, when the UK has left the EU and all It's institutions we can sit down and talk about a FTA, but that's it. No FOM, no ECJ jurisdiction. Just trade, I wouldn't even oppose coming to sort some of compromise on paying towards the money they think were obliged to pay if it lead to a FTA. But that's it, If this isn't good enough on the EU side of things then we'll trade on WTO. I'm more than happy with this, most people i speak to are happy with this, conservative grassroots (I'm not a conservative) prefers no deal to any other options at this point. Then maybe one day we could come to an understanding.

Taleweaver said:
Interesting article. But I've got to be honest: I simply don't believe it. The article (which is written 2 years ago, so from the 'era' that the negotiations still went relatively smooth with the EU) already mentions that Australia reversed its stance. And America...you know damn well that Trump can praise the brexit deal today and totally dishes it tomorrow

As for not believing the article - yeah it's a few years old now but theres not alot more I can do, all those countries at some point have indicated they want a FTA with the uk after brexit, things may or may not have changed. As the video shows Australia wanted one before the vote even took place.

In finishing - a WTO brexit is the best option for both parties at this point. We can all go home come back and be friends, it might hurt in the short term but in the long term we'll all prosper and as a continent we've certainly been through far worse together.

Deleted User · Jun 13, 2019

shamzie said:
In finishing - a WTO brexit is the best option for both parties at this point. We can all go home come back and be friends, it might hurt in the short term but in the long term we'll all prosper and as a continent we've certainly been through far worse together.

British people showed us the way to freedom.

Guys, you can be proud of yourself, looking EU for what it is, a damn prison, plain and simple. Debates regarding FREXIT are strictly forbidden here and people don't seem to give a wooden nickle about industrial dismantling, negatives interest rates, NATO war mongers nor societal consequences of borders destruction...

Please, take care of Nigel

Doran754 · Jun 13, 2019

Torina said:
British people showed us the way to freedom.

Guys, you can be proud of yourself, looking EU for what it is, a damn prison, plain and simple. Debates regarding FREXIT are strictly forbidden here and people don't seem to give a wooden nickle about industrial dismantling, negatives interest rates, NATO war mongers nor societal consequences of borders destruction...

Please, take care of Nigel

The media have barely covered the riots and protests happening in Paris for like 26 weeks straight, I dont remember the last time I saw one of them cover it. Luckily we can see for ourselves, the internet allows us to see beyond the propaganda they put out. I hope you achieve this, and Italy, I was upset when France adopted the Euro. I still have some francs from a school trip a while ago.

Get rid of Macron and the future will be brighter outside the prison for sure. Goodluck!

notimp · Jun 14, 2019

Lets talk about this prison for a sec. If france exits that prison - its game over for the EU. As in - it structurally will not survive.

You can exit the prison via a (not so) simple vote. With simple majority.

Britain - if I'm interpreting the latest developments correctly - is currently bought out by the US to push forward on hard Brexit to produce maximum damage - which the US has vowed to compensate for them.
Thats the "Boris Johnson got 1/3 of the conservative vote for next prime minister" play.

Boris Johnson is an abstract idiot. Those you only have in politics as figure heads. So that they prance around in public - basically. Thats also a concept you have to at least think about once..

The yellow jackets (frances resistance movement) - for which I actually have sympathies (because a large part of them has worker and lower social classes backgrouds), even though part of the left hats them (because ideologically they basically are at least drifting to the right wing) - chose to engage in violent protest (setting cars on fire - showing the usual mob behavior thats related to that) - for which they have lost "social recognition" in the mainstream. Which also includes coverage - when they are not setting cities on fire again.

By now their numbers have plummeted - which makes the mob people really furious (just mass behavior) - but they still are politically and economically important - because their coordinated actions still can halt the economy in france in certain regions, for days. They have become an internal opposition. Something that also sounds nice - but is the first step towards promoting civil war.

Now, if you look at them politically - same deal as with the UK getting bought out to do max harm by the US - they can be financed by foreign political actors - simply because it doesnt cost that much. They are decentralized - which means, dealing with them is a freaking mess - because they cant even agree on what they want - or who speaks for them.

Which is essential - if you are a "resistance", but is rather idiotic - if you fancy yourselves a political movement.

Now lets look at the statements again.

"Thank you UK - you showed us a way out of the EU." What? Reading the treaties? (Article 50?) Showing you how to do a popular petition? Showing you how to win that by 1.4% points, after six months of unrefuted campaign lies? And after engaging in all the xenophobia you could muster?

Honestly - because that was what it took for britain to mobilize their aging baby boomers society to engage in "I want brish people to attend to my needs, when I'm old" voting patterns.

Thats the way. And that way doesnt work in france.

Yellow jackets by themselves dont even agree on being pro brexit in the first place. Also their anger and their demands werent always unreasonable.

Now lets look at media behavior. If you jump the line towards violent protest - media thats "close to the state" (think they want exclusives

) kind of is incentivized to neglect you the best they can. You fuckers are instigators. If media gives you a platform - they would sabotage their business models, vote for politically unstable times - and do so as an "amplifier" (which is why you are interested in them in the first place) - so actively supporting your cause. As soon as you set fire to the tenth car or so - mainstream media is out. Now you are getting the "ignore them the best you can" treatment, and you get it for all the right reasons. Tough luck. Britain hasnt taught you that. Now its just a fight to contain you and make you smaller over time - while you try to mobilize idiots with junk on facebook.

And to be absolutely clear - you are both rather intellectually challenged, if you go for emotional bait in the form of paroles (propaganda in the textbook sense), then complain about "tha unjust media" not propagating your causes - neglect all the economic forces at work here -

and at the same time - complain about a "prison" that can be dismantled by a simple majority vote. While that "prison" grants you all kinds of structural economic benefits that allows europe to act as an economic powerhouse in the first place.

Now where the yellow jackets arguably are correct is - that france shifted their politics quite radically towards being more business friendly - and was about to spread costs on their population equally - which impacts poor people the most. That is something you effectively can protest. If you want to dismantle the "prison that is the EU" for it - there is no direct correlation there. Its just paroles and PR. In fact - france wanted to remold the EU as a project only three years ago - to which germany hasnt reacted in due time - which produced a general political crisis, that now has to be tackled. So you actually are one half of the freaking head wardens team in your "prison".

Also - lets all get bought out by the US to act as traitors, might very well be a swell model for the UK, but it will never be for france. Which is why frexit is very, very difficult to imagine. It would be basically - "destroy the union you are one of the major benefactors from - for nothing in return".

Frances right wing political fraction (sponsored by foreign actors (historically thats "normal" - because of course you do) has one third of the public vote - but has become politically isolated. So even if they become the strongest political power in the country - no one else will deal with them, so they never can govern the country. They are in deadlock. Which yes - is politically motivated.

This again took 20 paragraphs to outline. Frexit out of the prison that is the EU! Is a much more catchy phrase - but again, it hardly has any baring on reality. And the UK just showed you how to become a good biatch to the US - if things continue on the trajectory they are currently moving into. (The Boris Johnson vote of confidence. Hes just the idiot that would be needed to move britain into a hard brexit. British people after five years (still short term) will be furious at him - which is why you need an idiot for that position).

notimp · Jun 14, 2019

Here is why germany didnt want to react to france proposal to "change the EU" btw.:

Political power in the EU is basically shared between Germany and France (with systems to also make smaller countries benefit disproportionally (more), but then they still remain small politically - usually), with the UK always having been a pain in the ass, that mainly wanted access to markets, but not much to do with the political side of the union. They could do that - because they were 'big'. So as long as they said "we with you" they got special deals and treatments.

France always pushed for "tighter integration" within the EU. Meaning, germany and france having to pay more for other countries within the EU, but in return having a tighter bond.

The "why" is also simple to explain - because germany would have to pay disproportionally more (currently they benefit "most" from not changing the current arrangement) - making them "weaker" in relation to france - with both of them battling for political leadership roles within the EU.

To entice germany to do so - france had to become "more economically sound" (meaning more open to business interests, less protectionists - more taxes for the general public). Which backfired. Partly. As germany didnt bite.

*Tadaaa* Thats the current situation.

The far right is always against that - because - nationalism. If that becomes less important (tighter integration), why should people vote for them anymore?

So "thank you to the UK for showing us the way, said france" is factually moronic.

First - france always pushed for tighter integration - which the UK stated as the reason they were leaving the EU. Now they are buddy - buddy allies with "thank you for showing us the way statements" - because of what? Their love to destroy the EU - instead of gouverning it? I mean - EU already is France keeps checks on Germany, Germany keeps checks on France - the political construct.

You guys are so into your paroles - that you brainwashed common sense out of your brainy regions.

And if you think you are dealing with a battle between good (rightwing?) and bad (leftwing?) people - let me insure you - that no one in politics cares about the common idiot on the street that can be motivated by political propaganda.

edit:

Internal conference of the alt-right in the US prior to the Charlottes Ville disaster:
https://streamable.com/g3xgg (video clip)

Here is what one of alt-right poster boys had to say on video about and then to their perceived "inner cycle".

"Jared and me have different styles. Jared is more on the side of the racial realism - based on scientific reasoning, I'm thinking that we can reach a lot more, if we think magically and appeal outright to emotions."

Same person: "You know, as an old chinese proverb goes - may you live in interesting times. We are doing that. We are probably living at a breaking point. And I'm loving it. I'm very happy to be alive. I'm very happy to wake up every day and be able to do this stuff."

"On August 12th in Charlottes Ville, there is going to be a great demonstration organized by Jason Kessler, who is here also ... Almost the entire alt-right is going to be there and its going to be hugely (sic!) dramatic. And probably also hugely (sic!) traumatic for the liberal people of Charlottes Ville. (laughs)"

I mean - it is what it is. If you cant identify people selling snakeoil - even if they tell you to your face, that you are a mark...

But then you probably still wont react in any reasonable way to that - because once you've found "community" in the people telling you that sort of stuff, reason doesnt work anymore. Then its too late. Until for some reason, you stumble upon a contradiction that is so huge... that it kicks you out of your fixed thought patterns.

Critical thinking ftw.

notimp · Jun 14, 2019

Also as for GB being the fifth largest economic power.

Did you know that indonesia will be the sixth largest in 2030?

Better not get overtaken by indonesia chaps. I mean those are the new economic opponents you chose to now be on the same level with.

Deleted User · Jun 14, 2019

Hi notimp and Shamzie,

@notimp

Wow, just wow.
It may be interesting to have a beer with you but dang, I don't have time to handle this wall of text. I could talk for hours about the vital necessity of FREXIT, but online I try to stay concise, otherwise I lose the audience.

A few things:
- far right in France is pro-EU, they've been clear on that and removed every independance velleity and article 50 reference from their program. They represent 15% max of enlisted voters (30% max of expressed votes) and, you're damn right, will NEVER be in control
- The same goes for far left, it is pro-EU, still demanding 'a social europe' (same demand since 1980...), but strictly opposed to FREXIT. The Melechon's Plan B (leaving) is today in minority in this 3% of enlisted voters party, liberals and ethnic lines are about to rule LFI - The representative of this list is a OXFAM executive, Soros NGO, for F sake !
- pro-FREXIT are less than 1% of enlisted voters (UPR-Patriotes), their access to mass media is strictly controled (no more EGALITY in media access, but EQUITY instead, which is an hilarious concept) and debates about EU consequences are simply non existent outside the internet
- yellow jackets sadly didn't voted 'en masse', if they did, it was for pro-EU lists
- government party (Macron LREM), ultra-liberal, pro-EU and francophobic, is only supported by 10% of enlisted voters (old people and high revenues), but pro EU extremists (far left and far right) guarantee its reelection in 2 rounds votations
- Macron is a young leader of the French-American Foundation, in that regard, he is charged with high trahison political moves (Mistral scandal, Alstom disaster, Arjowiggins liquidation, Syria bombing against parliament and UN decisions, chinese mafia acquaintance in Toulouse airport affair, anti-Russia and warmonging positions...)...but is untouchable due to recent constitution rewritings

I'm quite impressed by your knowledge in France's political situation, you are right on many things.
But please, write less, focus more !

@shamzie

You're damn right, thanks to the internet, we can see through propaganda, but the average age of voters here is above 58yo, and they HATE internet, cause it is not spoon feeding them with information.

I admire UK for its newspapers, you have some very good information sources, cause INDEPENDANT from government subsides. I can't thank enough Ambrose Evan-Pritchard (Daily Telegraph, IIRC) for its work on US implication on the EU early days (Monet, Schumann, Spaak, Hallstrein, all selected and funded by US governments !).

The support Ukip received in the last election is outstanding, even if UPR was laminated in France, I feel relieved by Nigel farage success. Keep up the good work !

To conclude on a light note, "there are two kind of people in this debate, those who love EU, and those who know how it works"

Have a nice day guys

notimp · Jun 14, 2019

Wall of text is necessary to confront five words or less paroles. And I'm dumbing concepts down to even condense them in paragraphs that short.

Right wing in france is pro EU as in "we want the construct - to make nations more independent again". As in "destroy it from within".

Which is even more questionable, because now you require an EU wide right wing majority to do so - which just isnt there.

So at this point it becomes "say whatever you think resonates most well with the people".

We 1% frexit people are the most pure, and fair, but are treated so badly - kind of doesnt fly against the simple concept of - hey the EU is there to benefit france and germany most. Guess I found your reason for why only 1% of your populous is pro frexit.

Also frexit has "special status" because frexit means, the end of the EU. Not even other concepts (smaller unions in the same vain) thinkable.

So your two points

1. Right wing movements arent for "frexit" only the pure 1%ers are
2. People who parttake in political action thats wrong on moral grounds arent pure (because "transatlantic treaties!")

are in large parts - smoke and mirror.

When I talk about the potential of the UK currently being bought out by US interests to become the biggest possible pain in the ass possible for the rest of the continent - thats one part of US centered interests. (As in current administration).

French governments honoring transatlantic treaties is another part (long term oriented preexisting foreign relations).

One is current political action, the other one is "the basis of foreign politics" - where morals dont count. Where even universal human rights (UN charta) mostly dont count. (To attack any ruling figure on that basis is easy (morals in the general public), but not something the right wing historically was ever out to change in concept. So - as sad, and emotionally disturbing it is - its fluff. In foreign politics, this will always be seen as part of "necessary evil/unjustness". This will never (+/-) change.)

The rest of your points (hope I havent missed some trap you laid out

) are actually more or less proper

You have to answer me one question still though. Because you thanked them for the example of their action, how has the UK shown france in any way how to deal with the EU conceptually? How will what the UK did benefit you in concept, or practically?

mattytrog · Jun 14, 2019

The UK are getting their identity back. We are British foremost. European comes a very distant second.

There is far too much history between Europe and the UK. We can never be considered an equal. Our whole logic and history is completely incompatible with the EU model.

Many thousands of British people have died saving our freedom. It is in our blood. Regardless of what the left-wing propagandists / BBC have you believe.

The EU have nothing but contempt for the UK sadly.

Sidenote:

Just had replacement passport delivered...

We are on the way to becoming a sovereign nation once again. Notice the lack of "European Union" on the passport?

And not before time.

notimp · Jun 14, 2019

Yes - identity politics. Nothing new - nothing completely exceptional. The true gage of stuff working is - this working out economically for you as well. In the long term.

It still could - I'm not saying that it wont (long term). We'll have to see. it kind of all depends on what happens next.

But then you have to agree, that "everything will turn out better, because finally we'll have our national identity back" - is kind of based on 'magical thinking'. (All PR is, on every side - not saying, that that makes you bad pad people.. But - if the US wouldnt have come to your "rescue" in terms of "you might want to move towards hard brexit, boys" - it would have been very hard to see economic benefit to your voting behavior over the short and mid term. It still is. (How much the US will support you over time - is still not certain.)

Deleted User · Jun 14, 2019

notimp said:
the EU is there to benefit france and germany most

No.
Overrated Euro, no economic protections toward sheer foreign predation, no strategy...In 20 years (in fact, more 30 due to "monetary snake"), France has been decimated by the EUtopia. Even Delors and Giscard D'estaing, UE dervishes, admitted it...Only Eastern Europe, a few northern countries and Germany benefit from this madness. Our oligarcs don't give a damn as long as France, the empire killer during 1 000 years, has to disappear (Jean Monet and Robert Schuman wet dream), it is simple as that.

notimp said:
"necessary evil/unjustness"

notimp said:
How will what the UK did benefit you in concept, or practically?

See, that's exactly why there has never been and will never be such thing as "European people", despite EU propaganda.
For Anglo-saxons, freedom is everything.
For French, justice is everything.
"Necessary evil" is full Machivel/SunTzu bull****, that discard long term consequences for immediate satisfaction. The legitimity of our kings always depended on their actions, republicans don't bother with such things.

I support BREXIT because british people will, even already, benefit from it. It is THEIR insterest.
France will not benefit from Brexit, first and mostly EU WILL TAX FRANCE MORE to compensate the end of UK fundings, simple as that.

Doran754 · Jun 14, 2019

notimp said:
Wall of text is necessary

It's really not. I promise you everybody who's in this thread will have skipped 99% of what you wrote, It's just too much and Torina is right, if you write less and more precise myself and others will gladly read and engage with it. Out of that whole post you put what I've highlighted here is the only part i actually read.

notimp said:
Britain - if I'm interpreting the latest developments correctly - is currently bought out by the US to push forward on hard Brexit to produce maximum damage - which the US has vowed to compensate for them.
Thats the "Boris Johnson got 1/3 of the conservative vote for next prime minister" play..

What makes you say this, do you have any source to back this up? Last time I checked an American president came over here threatening the U.K if we voted to leave. The snowflakes in london have been embarrassing themselves with the baby trump balloon, from where I'm sitting the exact opposite of what you're saying looks to be true. Also I find it just absurd that you think a country can "buy out" the UK. The UK has a lot of similarities with the USA but alot of disagreements too. We have stupid hate speech laws, we don't own guns, we have mass surveillance, that's off the top of my head. Three things the USA fundamentally disagrees with.

notimp · Jun 14, 2019

Torina said:
Overrated Euro, no economic protections toward sheer foreign predation, no strategy...In 20 years (in fact, more 30 due to "monetary snake"), France has been decimated by the EUtopia. Even Delors and Giscard D'estaing, UE dervishes, admitted it...Only Eastern Europe, a few northern countries and Germany benefit from this madness. Our oligarcs don't give a damn as long as France, the empire killer during 1 000 years, has to disappear (Jean Monet and Robert Schuman wet dream), it is simple as that.

Germany cant get bigger politically, or economically - because of france. France is the "limiter". That in recent decades they have chosen to outperform everyone economically through price dumping - is kind of fucked, but then its your "role" to remind them that they kind of shouldnt be able to - at least not beyond a certain extend. Thats the concept. And for that you get open communication channels on the highest levels, and half of the actually important political positions within this construct.

That they should be able to outperform other countries to some extend, and also maybe ensure that in france work place securities can get worse - on the flip side makes the entire EU construct more competitive internationally, so even thats a give an take. (Not looking at greece, because stuff is still pretty one sided in those economies.)

Also france has benefited from the EU, greatly so - just not as much as germany or maybe some scandinavian countries (exports, stability). The eastern block you can marginalize in that specific discussion (that was mainly our (yours and germanies, and the UKs) business folks "developing their regions" for profits in our pockets (if things would have panned out as planned).)

Now - people vs. countries.

If a country is benefiting, that doesnt mean that their people are equally thats correct.

Now look at whats happening on the international stage.

Europe and the US are fighting a retractionist battle.

The former german secretary of foreign affairs gets teased by chinese business partners, that the future of the EU will be as split - independent entities. Thats basically his main concern.

Whenever we wanted to talk about tax carousells we got booted by the smaller countries within the union. Whenever we wanted to talk about the big tech and internet commerce companies, we got booted with threats of tariffs by our foreign partners.

Did we still benefit from being able to act as a larger market - yes. Did that trickle down to the individual level (income disparity), no.

That recognition has sunk in - and germany has to do something within the next five years to try to prop that up - so the "political ideal" becomes something that people dont feel is hollowed out to a large extent.

Rich people not caring about income disparities - kind of will never change. The've always rectified that with "investment potential" - but then in the last two decades investment strategies havent benefited national economies - much. That said - during all of this we kind of are on a path towards structural recession (slower growth) anyhow... so frustration is obvious, and to be expected.

But then there is nothing inherently bad about acting as a bigger economic block.

"The EU" is mostly not responsible for nearly half of what you are projecting on it in terms of negative outcomes.

Yes "market openness" means less protectionist interventions possible (borders, tariffs, case laws), but in return it also means, more stable markets and higher economic potential. The later part should always be more important. Now does that mean, that the benefits are distributed equally within countries? Heck no. But then your figures to address would be local politicians - and not necessarily the EU. Also - this is happening currently (France has seen a drift to the right, Germany has seen a drift towards the left. Entire majority parties have all but been dismantled in both countries. The issue now is - that no one has new concepts thought out and available - so progress is slow, and the general econmic environment (where we are loosing relevance by the decade).)

Now - looking at the business models of the UK chaps (services for developing countries), they dont seem especially riveting either. So that will never be a solution for even "most of europe". Which is probably why the european union will not fail - because the alternatives are actually not that great.

National pride cant make up for it in most countries. Neither can "first mover advantage" ("we been so restricted by the EU (!) (were you really?)".

--------------------- MERGED ---------------------------

Torina said:
"Necessary evil" is full Machivel/SunTzu bull****, that discard long term consequences for immediate satisfaction.

Other way around, it discards short term consequences, for long term stability. Thats why you overlook things such as Rammstein in germany through witch the US fights their drone wars in the southern hemisphere.

For societies it was always enough "not to look too closely - where their resources are coming from" - they never wanted to know - they still dont want to if you give them the choice. Thats the stuff, that as a concept never will go away.

If it gets too outrageous, stop it. I'm not saying that activism in those fields is bad. Just that - structurally its kind of supposed not to win.

notimp · Jun 14, 2019

More information that I'm not making this stuff up - here, read this:

Traditionally, boosting growth has been seen as the best way to create job opportunities and raise living standards. But governments should now look at this the other way around: by better equipping their citizens to navigate the world of work, countries can most effectively boost their economic growth and development.

GENEVA – Growth is decelerating in Europe, the United States, China, Japan, and other leading economies, as the International Monetary Fund and World Bank recently highlighted by revising their global forecasts for this year substantially downward. At the same time, political and business leaders know they need to do more to prepare workforces for the labor market in an age of rising automation, stagnant wages, and greater part-time, temporary, and contingent employment.

src: https://www.project-syndicate.org/c...ities-by-guy-ryder-and-richard-samans-2019-06

I hate it as much as you do - but this is currently happening.

ChibiMofo · Jun 14, 2019

Putin wants chaos in the West. His minions pushed Brexit in the UK and Traitor Trump in the US. In the UK, even after violating legal spending limits and flat out lying about things such as the "$350M per week" that was allegedly going to the EU" and having Putin's bots run never-ending anti-immigrant memes on social media, Brexit barely won 51.9 to 48.1. It's (exposed) supporters are scared to death of another referendum because they no there is no chance it would pass.

In the US, Putin's Puppet got three million less votes than Hillary Clinton and won only because of illegal interference in our election and outright voter fraud. The Traitor in Chief is the most hated president the country has ever had with the worst polling numbers in recorded history. Even Putin can't save him from a landslide loss now.

But Traitor Trump has done everything Putin has asked of him, allowing the Russian dictator to get out of arms agreements with the West and make his top lieutenants billionaires with one-sided arrangements with American companies that want to lobby the Trump administration. Trump also praises Putin at every meeting with either Putin himself or his henchmen. He has no choice, of course. Putin can send a deputy to Congress any time he wants to admit that his people own Trump so he blackmails him with this.

It's really quite amazing that Putin was able to install a puppet government in Washington. I would not have thought it possible before the career corporate criminal and admitted serial sexual-assaulter took office (illegitimately).

notimp · Jun 14, 2019

Putin doesnt matter. (Sad russia. Putin so sad.)

Political influence on elections through "opinion hacking on facebook" in europe (recent european election) was practically zero. Political influence through financing of political parties isnt transparent (and probably didnt change much).

Trump is only a "traitor" in as much as he represents a certain segment of US business. In germany, we rather think, that the close cooperation with the US is more or less a thing of the past - so something that will be a new reality, Trump or not. Trump speeded up the process - but his foreign politics in the first year of the administration werent developed by him or his team.

The US isnt suddently going to think that Europe is a great investment hub (now that the UK is gone), just because Trump is out of the office.

Again - if you can, dont think about politics in terms of faces. The faces usually matter less than people like to give them credit for. Imho.

Doran754 · Jun 14, 2019

1MiinMofo said:
Putin wants chaos in the West. His minions pushed Brexit in the UK and Traitor Trump in the US. In the UK, even after violating legal spending limits and flat out lying about things such as the "$350M per week" that was allegedly going to the EU" and having Putin's bots run never-ending anti-immigrant memes on social media, Brexit barely won 51.9 to 48.1. It's (exposed) supporters are scared to death of another referendum because they no there is no chance it would pass.

In the US, Putin's Puppet got three million less votes than Hillary Clinton and won only because of illegal interference in our election and outright voter fraud. The Traitor in Chief is the most hated president the country has ever had with the worst polling numbers in recorded history. Even Putin can't save him from a landslide loss now.

But Traitor Trump has done everything Putin has asked of him, allowing the Russian dictator to get out of arms agreements with the West and make his top lieutenants billionaires with one-sided arrangements with American companies that want to lobby the Trump administration. Trump also praises Putin at every meeting with either Putin himself or his henchmen. He has no choice, of course. Putin can send a deputy to Congress any time he wants to admit that his people own Trump so he blackmails him with this.

It's really quite amazing that Putin was able to install a puppet government in Washington. I would not have thought it possible before the career corporate criminal and admitted serial sexual-assaulter took office (illegitimately).

Jesus, this post is embarrassing. I'm reluctant to even reply to somebody this deluded but i'll give it a go. No, he's not a traitor, theres just been a near 3 year investigation and found no wrong doing. No, putin didn't interfere in the election, there's no evidence for this. I know evidence doesn't matter to you, I can tell by the absolute state of your post. No, putin didn't interfere in brexit. The only outside interference came from then US president Obama - in favour of remain.

Have you got any sources that quite clearly prove Leave.eu broke electoral rules on spending limits? I'm asking this despite you willfully ignoring the fact Remain outspent Leave by £5m (this doesn't even include the £9m spent so the government could send out their pro eu leaflet to every household in the country) by all evidence your claim is silly and just willfully ignorant. If anything, REMAIN had an unfair advantage, It's not leave's fault they relied on your tactics of fear and incompetence. Nobody is 'scared' of another referendum, that kind of talk is pathetic, the only people who want one are the losers. The key is, the decision has already been made.

Feel free to ignore everything above as this perfectly sums up your whole post.

Deleted User · Jun 14, 2019

notimp said:
In germany, we rather think, that

So you're not japanese ?

As far as I remember, there was a massive movement in Merkel's party last year to move germany toward Gerxit.
The goal was to save their (economic) war funds before the target-2 Tsunami, that may be triggered by Italy.

The cash amount stored in german banks is the very reason EU is structurally flawed: no solidarity=no homogeneous economy.
In fact, germany excedents are exactly equal to all the other country losses.

As the British queen once cleverly asked "Give me three good reasons to stay in the EU".

notimp · Jun 14, 2019

I'm not. I refuse to change that flag for silly reasons.

There are always murmurs about a "northern euro" economical zone, or a europe of "two speeds", but the issue there then will be structural stability. China is building their trade routes through southern european countries. (And lays train tracks in the north.) Europe with an actual land border to the south would be problematic as well (migration pressure from africa is only assumed to increase) - and every deal with the southern countries you could strike up as a separate union would be worse than what they currently have, and they all know it.

Its hard to imagine a future like that. Its not impossible - but its rather "what would happen after another crisis" - imho.

Currently at least the Soros foundation (*hrhr*) seems to believe, that the left wing push in Germany will make them less growth focused in the near term, see: https://www.project-syndicate.org/c...-institutional-reform-by-george-soros-2019-06

Again, next five years should be interesting.

notimp · Jun 14, 2019

Economist also says - neh - Italy is still fine.

The Economist June 8th 2019

Italy

Debt and discipline

ROME

The EU edges towards punishing spendthrift Italy

As one country comes out of the naughty corner, another risks being sent there. On June 5th the European Commission opined that Spain was no longer breaking European fiscal rules, and recommended bringing its decade-long “excessive-deficit" procedure to a close. But it began the process of opening a similar procedure against Italy. Eventually, if no compromise is reached, the Italians could face a multibillion-euro spanking.

The ultimate source of the problem is Italy's extravagant burden of public debt. In 2018 it came to 132% of gdp, second in Europe only to Greece. The European Union's rules require that this ratio fall at a prescribed pace. Instead, for the first time in four years, Italy's debt ratio rose last year.

That alone would not have warranted action if Italy had convinced the commission there was a good reason for the infraction, or that it would prove temporary. Giovanni Tria, the finance minister, argues that a recession in the second half of 2018 explains some of the overshoot. He also thinks the budget deficit this year will come in at 2.2% of gdp, below the 2.4% initially projected. The government has introduced new basic income and early-retire-ment schemes, but fewer citizens than expected are taking advantage of them. That should limit the rise in the debt ratio.

Such arguments would usually sway the commission. But it fears a much worse fiscal picture in 2020. It expects the deficit to break the 3% ceiling enshrined in the eu'sStability and Growth Pact, meaning Italy will violate both the debt and deficit rules. Mr Tria says this will be avoided either by raising the value-added tax or through "alternative measures" that bring in equivalent revenue. Brussels is sceptical. vat rises have been deferred in the past and are ruled out by both of the parties in Italy's populist coalition, the Northern League and the Five Star Movement (M5S).

Politicians show little inclination to tighten their belts. Flushed with his success in the European elections, Matteo Sal-vini, the leader of the League, wants to rewrite the eu's rules rather than follow them. He has pledged to implement a flat income tax, which could cost the government large amounts of revenue. Meanwhile Luigi di Maio, who leads M5S, wants to protect welfare spending. On June 3rd Giuseppe Conte, the technocratic prime minister, threatened to quit if the parties could not compromise on spending. Mr Salvini has since set a two-week deadline for the coalition to strike a deal.

For now the government has time on its side. The commission's patience may be wearing thin, but it is not exhausted. A formal disciplinary procedure is launched only once the finance ministries and heads of member states give their blessing. That will not happen before eu leaders meet at a European Council summit on June 20th. The leaders may be satisfied with minor concessions, similar to those Italy's government made in 2018 when a row erupted over this year's budget.

Even if no concessions are made, a fine is a long way off. Once a procedure has been formally opened, the commission will ask Italy to take remedial steps. Only if Italy is deemed to have failed to do its homework will it be fined. In principle, the penalty could be as high as 0.2% of gdp, or about €3.5bn ($4bn). But Brussels has never actually fined a rule-breaker.

Financial markets, typically a more effective source of discipline, were largely unfazed by the commission's report on June 5th. But the coalition's first year in power has hurt investors' confidence. At the start of 2018, Italian economists note, the government could borrow at roughly the same interest rate as Spain. Now, the interest rate on a ten-year bond is nearly two percentage points higher.

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