The benefits of Brexit - the future of the United Kingdom

Discussion in 'World News, Current Events & Politics' started by emigre, May 26, 2018.

  1. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    There is a wonderful documentary out there called Putins Witnesses, that chronicles the transition of power from Jelzin to Putin from the view of Putins own PR filmmaker at the time, who by now defected to Lettland - and made this documentary afterwards.

    https://www.imdb.com/title/tt8647924/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

    German/French Version is online on Arte again:
    https://www.arte.tv/de/videos/078708-000-A/putins-zeugen/

    To keep consistent with the "no one cares about people on the individual level" it should be no surprise that a Putin doesnt either. ;) Whats surprising though is, that out of the top personal of about a dozen people that was part of his first election team - only one (Medvedev) is still alive.. ;) Stuff like that... ;) Lets say the russian power elite has a different concept of how to sustain stability, than most democratic countries.. ;)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Jun 16, 2019
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  2. barronwaffles

    barronwaffles GBAtemp Fan

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    At a cursory glance it seems like the majority of the prominent campaign team membership are in fact still alive - and still holding notable/lucrative positions. The only (public) account of a 'suspicious' death would be that of Anatoly Sobchak.
     
    Last edited by barronwaffles, Jun 16, 2019
  3. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    That said - in russia entire industry sectors were privatized in the past 30 years. Those are power shifts that we usually dont see in the west. So stakes - much higher there over the past years. This has to impact "political culture".

    #notanexcuse

    ;)
     
  4. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    I'll rewatch and name names.
     
  5. barronwaffles

    barronwaffles GBAtemp Fan

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    Sure, but the fact that I can already look up and find that other campaign leadership besides Medvedev are in fact still ticking over kinda~ invalidates the previous statement.
     
  6. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    Mikhail Yuriyevich Lesin - dead
    Boris Jefimowitsch Nemzow - dead
    Xenia Ponomarjowa - dead (natural death?)

    Named by the documentary as "moved into the opposition":
    Alexander Voloshin
    Gleb Pawlowski
    Mikhail Kasyanov (public humiliation by state media)
    Anatoli Tšubais (russian rightwing democrat leader, opposition after the first term and from then onwards)

    Demoted:
    Wladislaw Jurjewitsch Surkow

    Lucked out:
    Valentin Jumaschew (married Jelzins daughter)

    "Out of a dozen of people majority not alive" doesnt hold up. :) Only two or three deaths. :)

    A year after Putins election the news channel NTW, that people in Putins election committee were watching in the election night was broken up and moved under state control, ...

    Stuff like that.
     
    Last edited by notimp, Jun 16, 2019
  7. FAST6191

    FAST6191 Techromancer

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    That British Steel stuff is an oversimplification of matters. Bailing that out (again) would in many ways be good money after bad -- all those nice shots on the news as it was going down just served to show me how behind the curve they actually were, and looking at their general approaches there were in serious need of a stupendous cash injection to not only keep running but not get taken out for good in maybe 10 years when India or Pakistan decides to pull their thumb out of their arse and do more than cheap and simple things*. One might still make the argument as some kind of pragmatic thing if it is a one trick pony/source of all things for the area that it would be cheaper than a repeat of Thatcher vs Wales (though that might even be more apt of a comparison if the state of the mines there leading to it and lack of adoption of high tech in the fields), though it is not an argument I would normally expect to hear pass the lips of one such as yourself. Be careful you don't treat British industry like Americans treat farmers -- some kind of romantic historical notion of what it is and means to the country somehow bleeding through into the modern world. Unlike said farmers though I can see some future for it, and not just to save my own skin.

    *India, and increasingly Pakistan, have some decent abilities here, and I will not discount China either and south America could come up (all those fun loans in the 80s that the UK et al sent out there to kickstart their industry did actually make some infrastructure, even if the market did not give a crap about the resulting products despite the claims of the finance peeps initially offering the loans). Their quality control is shit and thus I would hate to presently have any kind of complex, critical work done there -- a lot of what I fix and have to sort is people cheaping out there, what casting/forging shops I do deal with in the UK (though usually non ferrous ones) often (or indeed as their main revenue stream) send things out to there, China, South America... From what I saw of British Steel's machines and setup in those news reports and pity pieces they were not geared for tight tolerance work with complex forgings (not to mention they would be screaming this from the rooftops if it were the case). Their main claims to fame then being that they actually did proper material sampling, product testing and such for what amounts to fairly basic products. Judging by where my friends and associates are heading out to, and looking at the demographics of international students in UK Engineering departments (for all else that might be said the UK educational system, as much as it now costs https://www.statista.com/statistics...-average-debt-on-entry-to-repayment-timeline/ , can and does produce some top tier engineers) then it will probably click for India and Pakistan that testing at all the proper points on the chain (something they already have all the gear to do) is a good plan before too long -- many of those I did follow the stories of have the companies (usually family ones) resultantly punch well above their weight. Once that happens and if wages have not gone like the tier 1 cities of China before then it is going to be a fairly big shake up akin to China and electronics 15 years ago.
    Worse is I just dragged up a profits by year thing for its various incarnations and they were considerable at times so it is not like they have even been limping by for however long and could not afford to reinvest.


    Industry wise. I would look at a variety of factors here. The UK does not really dig anything up any more (importing is then a relative expense), environmental laws are fairly harsh (some not without reason, some I find dubious, many also the reason things are not dug up any more), energy costs are pretty high (there is a bit of nuclear but not France or Japan levels, and the geography is not there like Iceland or something), labour costs are pretty high (especially compared to Asia), the financial sector (if we have to play to your "leftists ist the root of all ills" idea you will not find too many of those in the higher echelons of finance) was far more attracted to paper pushing and software and frequently denied or gave shit terms, effectively then denying, on finance (the returns on investment there are several times higher than even a well optimised factory, and said factories don't even have the massive stability for said lower rates of return that you can also find in areas of finance), the firms themselves have not been inclined to take new people in (there is a reason so many of my friends and associates are fucking off abroad, and I have seen just as many take things way below what they were trained for (presumably displacing others or denying advancement in the process) if they can even break in before toddling off to finance to program their computers or something and having it be a hobby rather than a career).
    One might look at Japan (lots of often very small industry, including hand work too, though Japan's finances are an interesting one that I don't know if we would emulate) or Germany (ignoring their brown coal bonus, which will probably taper off but I am not sure of current goings there) and see something, though I am not sure it entirely applies. Also unlike the US which can try to mandate it has its massive and hideously bloated military to outfit itself by itself and thus allow for something I don't see the UK having a similar option.


    Anyway we might be getting off topic a bit there. You speak of the will of the people. It seems of those that voted back then that the result was over the whole nation the desire to leave, even with the shockingly poor state of the campaigns around it. Fair enough. The job then is to do it well. It also behoves one to consider how very close it was -- much of politics is trying to balance things (or if you prefer despite how UKIP and such never held much actual power their effects are considerable with politics as a whole, and this is near enough half that cared to engage), as well as the breakdowns within the union that is the country (or would you dismiss Scotland's still also recent referendum results in a similar manner to how you approach this? If you can keep people reasonably happy then it makes sense to do it). This was not however a job well done.
    Maybe it will be that it is all so irrecoverably hosed up that no deal is the best that can be hoped for in the present circumstances -- if my doctor through incompetence and inattention left my infection to go on for so long that rather than some antibiotics and a bit of bedrest I ended up with an amputated leg following a bout of gangrene I would be within my rights to be a bit upset about it all, despite the plus of not being dead.


    As far as blaming labour. They have much to answer for, and I don't think history will look favourably upon this iteration of the conservatives either. They have however held power local and national, up and down the land no less (give or take the SNP since that became a thing, though it is not like they are absent there either), for how many years now ( https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7529 )? If they are too toothless to undo the ills wrought by previous governments, and they seem to be able to push through utter bollocks like the various things concerning speech, the porn blocks and if we are going back to industry and trades the amount of red tape that goes on there and that has increased in the last however many years (beyond that which other countries see either, give or take Australia) then what I am supposed to think here? Some of it might be the fault of them shooting themselves in the foot with that snap election and becoming less able as a result. I would still look however at them pulling the trigger on article 50 without even seemingly the outline of a plan in place, much less a workable series,
     
  8. JoeBloggs777

    JoeBloggs777 GBAtemp Advanced Fan

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  9. mattytrog

    mattytrog You don`t want to listen to anything I say.

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    1) you cited the grain. That makes further points invalid.

    2) when you are that far in front, why bother? Let them scrap it out for second place.

    3) guessing it's a channel 4 debate. He would be well advised to keep those far left quislings at arms length.

    4) by all accounts, he will be at the BBC debate.

    Think we are done
     
  10. JoeBloggs777

    JoeBloggs777 GBAtemp Advanced Fan

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    yes your right :)
    Boris said he wouldn't appear on the Channel 4 show but he said he would take part in a BBC one after Tuesday.

     
  11. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    On the proceeding currently going on in Hong Kong (introduction of the clip):

     
  12. H1B1Esquire

    H1B1Esquire RxTools, the ultimate CFW machine.

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    Earth, bro-dude.
    I....don't have time for that? Can you summarize the video, while drawing out the most crucial elements?

    I'm trying to connect the dots, but it seems like the 0:42 clip I posted, only relates to the 33:27 clip you posted by .05% (+-).
     
  13. shamzie

    shamzie Oh David de Gea <3

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    Some interesting updates to the EU this week.

    The new European Commission president, a German defence chief building the EU army: "My goal is the United States of Europe - based on the model of the federal states of Switzerland, Germany or the US" Loony remainers have been banging on for years about how there won't be a federal superstate and how we've been wrong all along.

    If that wasn't bad enough they've also appointed a convicted fraudster to be in charge of the European bank. You couldn't make this up. Does anyone remember voting them in? Or seeing any leadership debates? Me neither, the EU has also never been audited, they aren't transparent and are so undemocratic it's laughable.
     
  14. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    The new ECB President isnt decided yet - neither is the next President of the European commission.

    Germany and France are still battling it out (Van der Leyen vs. Barnier and Lagarde vs. Weidmann). Other possibilities still open, as well.

    The European Army being built up is a necessary known known - because the US are acting like dudebros on a moodswing based midlife crisis - and migration pressures are believed to increase.

    This one is all about the resources game again - and if the US is retracting from the middle east, Europe is expected to pick much of that up. There are new traderoutes with China they also need to be stabalized, after they've been established. (Probably less of a hazzle.)

    If that statement about the "United States of Europe" comes from van der Leyen - she is an odd joice for leading political figure, half a wild card - and not necessarily in the loop at all. At the moment. Her talk will slightly change, when she gets a higher office. :) She is not a campaigner, more a functionary type. And the swiss model isnt something that Europe can be molded upon. (Interests usually too varied.)

    So its still to early to tell - what will be happening, except for the parts (military union spending up), that are already known.

    Also the far right suddenly opposing military spending - and going 'told you so' on something that literally has been in the talks for more than ten years - in the form of talking points (united states of europe) - is nothing substantial.

    For the moment. Doesnt mean that the further integration push isnt coming, or happening - but its more complicated that what right wing radio jockeys tell their audience.

    You still are on a political knowledge level of kindergarden. Jumping at soundbits that politicians utter if they dont know anything and want to talk phrases that they think are expected of them.. ;)

    As soon as something happens - the flare up will be much larger.. ;)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Jul 4, 2019
  15. shamzie

    shamzie Oh David de Gea <3

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  16. Taleweaver

    Taleweaver Storywriter

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    Erm... Your Twitter quote basically proves notimp's point : it really is a soundbite from a politician who doesn't know anything but says things that his audience wants to hear.
     
  17. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    Even if it might proof my point - its a good hitpiece, but its partly wrong. :)

    People who have failed upwards in an institution - are reliable. People who have had public corruption cases in court and media, went through "baptism of fire", and presumably have good relations to the business side.

    Not always. So its not a rule - but its also not an exception.

    You never even want the "pure souls" in there, because they "lack experience".

    Thats why von der Leyen is such an odd choice. She basically was sidelined in the succession game for Merkels position - and stuck in the one ministry - no one cared about at the time. Then by a stroke of pure luck - military reform became pretty important again - and she kind of fit her position well. Shes stupid enough to let her department being "remodeled" by hip consulting firms. (Or intelligent enough not to let the blame of it not working fall on her shoulders, I'm not sure how that specific one works.. ;) )

    The thing with fighter planes that cant fly and submarines that dont work - was actually the fiscal planning of the state at the time - the military was unnecessary and unpopular in the public opinion.


    The gag here rather is, that in all complex decisions, there is always a bit of the 'morally bad' in there with the morally good. This 'we want absolute separation between institutions' also is something that you actually dont want (looks at the lobbying system). You just want enough transparency (moral judgement), that the position on the other spectrum are at least heard. Then politics works. (As a rough cut. ;) ) And yes - this favors undemocratic decision structures, and personal ambition. This is what public opinion acts as a counter balance to.
     
  18. shamzie

    shamzie Oh David de Gea <3

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    Andrew Neil isn't a politician, and the full 45 minute show is available, you're welcome to watch it yourself. So I didn't.

    He points out in a better way than I do because he's far more articulate that she will be appointed, despite court cases, fraud etc. Being the second most UNPOPULAR politician in Germany, despite the fact nobody voted her in, that she'll get the job because the EU is an undemocratic shit show. Soundbite? No, fact.
     
    Last edited by shamzie, Jul 6, 2019
  19. Hambrew

    Hambrew GBAtemp Regular

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    I'm american, but Brexit = NO article 17!
     
  20. shamzie

    shamzie Oh David de Gea <3

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    image.
    Quick reminder of the inner workings of the EU and how it promotes democracy
     
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