The benefits of Brexit - the future of the United Kingdom

[Doran754]

The work obviously wasn't complete, and he could've had a hand in crafting a Brexit deal which would've been acceptable for the pro-Brexit crowd. Instead he ditched because he knew there was no plan made in advance and the entire process of negotiating a deal was going to be a grand clusterfuck. He's just flying by the seat of his pants, which would be fine if the British people weren't the ones who are going to have to pay the price for it.

He didn't ditch anything, the official campaign had no power. It moved onto government to implement the decision. He got a job in government as foreign secretary before resignging. The remainer PM surrounded herself by more remainers to ensure after 3 long years we still hadn't left. If you go into a negotiation with people who don't want to leave then yeah you genuinely end up with a big clusterfuck. Thankfully if he's serious we'll finally have someone negotiating who actually WANTS to leave the EU.

First you were mad he's probably going to be PM and handling brexit and then you're saying he didn't have a hand in handling brexit as a negative. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Xzi]

Thankfully if he's serious we'll finally have someone negotiating who actually WANTS to leave the EU.

Wanting to leave the EU was never the issue, the collateral damage when incompetence ultimately leads to a no-deal Brexit is what's worrisome. It's not going to affect me either way, but it will likely have a negative impact on the global market.

 

[Taleweaver]

No I didn't make it up, do some research, legally you aren't owed a penny whether you like it or not. Obligations mean nothing in law.

You don't understand: I did the research, and couldn't find anything that would disprove my point. That's why I came to my conclusion. If you want to explain yourself, then go right ahead (it's a free forum here ). Just remember: throwing "do some research at someone" isn't going to convince anyone.

For the record: my sources:
http://theconversation.com/the-brexit-divorce-bill-explained-74466
https://qz.com/1134703/brexit-divorce-bill-explained-why-the-uk-needs-to-pay-the-eu-to-leave/

do you buy a car on money promised by someone before you have the money? We can both use daft analogies.

Okay, I admit it: I don't get how yours fits in this situation at all. If you want me to explain mine, I'll do it. But I'd refrain from calling analogies daft if you don't understand them.

You've already threatened to kick us out of gallaleio satellite project even though we basically paid for it

Sorry, but the guardian begs to differ:

May officially announced that the UK would be pulling out of the system and made no mention of any attempt to recoup the UK’s investment.
-> we didn't threaten anyone. It was your government deciding that it wouldn't be worth pursuing.

Britain has already contributed £1.2bn to the creation of Galileo, which has an overall cost of £9bn, but the EU has begun to exclude Britain from the security aspects of its development.
-> the far majority of the project is paid for by the other EU countries

stop acting like the victim it's boring

Could be boring, but it's also the truth. I know it's not as spectacular as made up stories, but ey...I didn't create reality. I just live by it.

For the record: you've done little to nothing to disprove that Johnson just wants to steal owed money. And perhaps he might convince you that he's right, but that doesn't make it so. And worse: it'll be a serious hindrance when, after brexit, the UK wants to create trade deals with other countries.

 

[Doran754]

snip.

I think your analogy was stupid so that means I don't understand it, I love the condescension. Please carry on, remind me how thick I was for voting to leave, I'm sure that'll make us change our mind. The house of lords report (you know that house that's tried at every attempt to block brexit) published a report that showed we legally owe you nothing. As for the rest I can't be bothered engaging, It's irrelevant, sure, we're stealing our own money. Seems legit. We'll be leaving and with any luck you won't be getting a penny. You don't speak for the rest of the world, you love to scare monger. It's amazing what you can find when you actually look at the otherside of the argument.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...deals-Britain-countries-Project-Fear-campaign

But yeah, you're right, countries won't wanna deal with brexit britain the 5th largest economy in the world because we didn't pay you money you weren't legally owed.

Oh look, in the space of 2 minutes I found someone else willing to disprove the utter tripe you're spewing.



Nah you're right - Australia doesn't wanna deal with us either.

 

[notimp]

Five eyes. Trump visit.

The US basically pays separatist britain to be a pain at the EUs doorstep, and the best bought out traitor that money can buy.

Australia - kind of part of that posey.

Thats the condensed down version thats obviously wrong in detail, but probably right in sentiment. (Nobody is asking "who caused it" anymore - everyone moved on to use the turmoil as a political chance.)

There never was any possibility - at all - that Australia would deny GB any form of trading deal - for playing such marvelous role in aiding US politics. They are part of the front you chose to side on. More or less..

 

[notimp]

That video is sickening btw.

Every halftruth that can be uttered about the EU on accordance to its memberstates brought forward in a way where it crosses the line to be an outright lie the most.

Its not just propaganda, its sickening. Shamzie go home - if thats what you are posting in here.

Of course you need examples.

- Britain not in control of their borders - for internal migration. Which is a non factor currently, and was so during the migration crisis. The basis of this statement is "free movement of labor" you assfucks. Not a rightwing dreamed up new migrant crisis that you used to move idiots to the polls. But which never was real. (Because we didnt hand over citizenships to refugies in mass, we just didnt.) F*ck.

- Half of their laws originate outside of the country. Oh for fucks sake - has no one explained the EU to you? Never? Do you go by the concept of democracies as in movies. Fuck off. EU crafts directives for laws that concern all european countries - then every country decides on how to put them into national law. With space for your own loopholes, and potential to dismiss and combat laws - to set them ineffective (and pay fines), but ultimately - this is an instrument that indeed - at least where trade or democracy matters are concerned - you have one unifying sentiment that directs every EU legislature. Otherwise - scrap the EU project, every country does what it wants.

- Almost no democratic legitimation. Correct - but. Also kind of the point here. I mean - what do you want? Ukranians striking in Brussels? Mazedonians toppling the government for a local outcome? I mean this debate usually revolves about the initiative rights for law making that the european parlament should be granted. For it to become truly democratic. For 15 years britain hated this with a passion (because it would give smaller countries more power within the union), now not having it is the cause that you left?


Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you and fuck you.
This video is a proverbial blowjob for a sell out position of some lobbying arm of something.You cant be that stupid to actually believe those things to that extent, and move around all of the structural context so expertly at the same time. Thats a speech thats written by assholes, to mindfuck stupid assholes. Spoken at an empty hall of government - just to get the fluff points, with none of the actual impact. Thats a speech that was held for youtube.

I don't know which swamp you drag all your materiual from - but you are actually sickening at this point. If your mind is set - and britain can do no wrong - and your positions of argument always involve using the term democracy in ways the UK wouldnt have dreamt to use it two years ago - then fuck the hell off and dont bother anyone else.

You are posting utter right wing shit at the moment.

Shit thats three years old no less - and including all the made up talking points, that were used to have britain cause the mess its currently causing in the first place. So you are stuck in the past as well - unwilling to move on any of your convictions which stem from shit. The worst PR you could produce. Utter shit.

And 200.000 youtube bots dont know when statements are expertly crafted around the truth to enrage them. Now - some of whats uttered in that video is no lie. Its just leaving all context out, then weighing your talking points, until you are mere inches from uttering a lie. Idiot bait.

 

[notimp]

Cherry on top:

A good way to discern if your opponent is an utter idiot that has somehow managed to get themselves into a political debate is how often they use the terms "constitution" or "democracy".

Because neither one actually means, what idiots usually think they mean in practice.

To the idiots - both of them mean "jesus" - and "power to tha people".

To the sporting interested fellow, they mean "base of governmental law - thats so hard to change - you should hardly ever be able to - which also is interpreted by a set of judges - which are representatives of political fields and power brokers on their own" and "uncontested turnover of power".

Look - no "Jesus" in there. No "but the people would have known better". No "but people were not asked". No one cares. Do you really think britain now is better off, because of a few more morons that get their talking points from facebook?

Its just that when - a common sentiment reaches high popularity that "democracy changes powerblocks" and the rest of it is making sure, that this then indeed results in the change that was voted in. (Which is why you can have brexit right? So thats democratic, right?) Which (making sure it indeed happens) is the part thats failing in britain currently. So if you are from the UK - better not give out democracy lessons currently.

In two years time - maybe.

 

[Doran754]

snip .

Do you really think I'm gonna sit and read through not one but three essays of absolute shite you've just posted? Think again. I don't even understand the point you're trying to make half the time, you just blabber on and it turns into an incoherent mess, but to reply to the one point that did catch my eye, I'm already home thanks.

Edit. Unfortunately while scrolling up I caught some more of the crap you typed. Wow you seem like an angry young man, who hurt you? You seem super upset about a video from a neutral party not belittling Britain outside of the EU. Oh no, did i find a video that supports my argument and doesn't support your EU propaganda bullshit?

Nah but seriously, if you don't like my opinion, tough shit. Silencing retractors is something communists do, so no I won't "fuck the hell off" sort your attitude out if you hope to continue the discourse, otherwise I'll resort to petty insults like you, left wing commie scum.

 

[H1B1Esquire]

Do you really think I'm gonna sit and read through not one but three essays of absolute shite you've just posted? Think again. I don't even understand the point you're trying to make half the time, you just blabber on and it turns into an incoherent mess

I tried to tell him about this--you have to approach him in a minimalist way; try easy "yes or no" sentences, gradually moving a laser-focused topic.


Annnyway, I'm a little sad the same/worse didn't happen to Tronald when he visited last. I only wish

↑ could have made farting noises as it moved its mouth.
I'm glad Merkel is doing what she's doing:
https://www.express.co.uk/news/worl...rump-usa-rant-international-labour-conference

 

[notimp]

A few pointers on how democracy ensures, that power can be handed over without a "fight" - is the institutional system. Take any ministry - the bulk of the people working there works there throughout different governments, they are what ensures, that the entire thing runs. When you get a political turnover, all that you exchange is the steering committee - and then there are rules for more structural change , that take longer to be enacted.

Thats democracy. That people go out to polls and get asked is just a factor of public polling. You could replace that with online polls (not really - because public voting also ensures, that people give their vote out of their own volition and cant sell it. Because they vote in private - in a public place - so no one is dumb enough to buy their votes under those conditions - because the seller can change their mind on their own, and fake out the buyer - without the buyer ever knowing - so that, as a concept, has always to be ensured), or freaking facebook metrics, because they know with a good enough error margin, how a country will vote anyhow.

Thats the "power of the people" in most countries. Something that you load up with pathos, and deeper meaning - when it is nothing of that sort.

Its just a system to ensure that power transitions can be made without the entire system toppling and having to be build up from the ground. The power of the individual voter is zero. All that anyone is interested in are collective notions. Because psychologically the power to know that a majority of people around you thinks a certain way - is immense. So large in fact - that you rather not dare going against it in public - because people could literally fill the streets and drag you out of office by your feet. No that this ever happens anymore - but thats the implied power. The one we now have formed rituals around.

And now the UK is failing at enacting democracy - but wants to give democracy lessons. How novel.

All those "its important to vote", "its your right to vote", "its your duty to vote", "theres power in your vote" - stuff is a mere public myth. Not real. It only becomes real at the aggregated level. So when influence of certain power blocks becomes visible through an anonymized vote.

No one trusts democracy to the extent that it is actual "rule of the majority" - because there are all kinds of systems, where you'd have to have a qualified majority, or a 2/3 majority to change systems. That - by definition you would not need, if you dont think - that people are stupid as hell sometimes. Thats your democracy for you.

Also that explaination should strip some of the pathos away people try to use to define whats "right" and "just" all the time. In the end no one cares about you as individuals - in politics. Never has - never will.

Heck, we only are a century away from people telling their workers how to vote, and selling votes to the highest bidder. Thats your democracy as a concept. Also - we have something that is called "representative democracy", which is entirely different from democracy - as it was invented, and for good reasons - but thats also something you dont teach morons - because from them you only ever need a quasi religious "I should be allowed to be heard as well" sentiment that in their hearts they "know to be true" once in a while. So you folks dont rebel.

I mean - we are living in an age where the last truly political idea (as in conceptually new) was enacted about a century ago. We live in an age where people have written acknoledged standard literature about "post democracy" societies. We live in the age of populist uprising, where literally a majority of people would love themselves, a strong leader - even in western societies. Do you really think you should be able to win arguments with but something has a lack of democracy at its core?

 

[notimp]

Want to read something funny?

In Hongkong - the Chinese gouvernment is currently at work, breaking democratic pathos. In public. Under the eyes of every other state in the world. With only one possible outcome - that the dream of democracy instilled in those citizens, will be broken and worn out over time.

It might take 50 years. But then its done.

Do you se anyone caring?

Now where does the "but it wasnt democratic enough" sentiment fall in that case?

 

[Taleweaver]

I think your analogy was stupid so that means I don't understand it, I love the condescension. Please carry on, remind me how thick I was for voting to leave, I'm sure that'll make us change our mind. The house of lords report (you know that house that's tried at every attempt to block brexit) published a report that showed we legally owe you nothing. As for the rest I can't be bothered engaging, It's irrelevant, sure, we're stealing our own money. Seems legit. We'll be leaving and with any luck you won't be getting a penny. You don't speak for the rest of the world, you love to scare monger. It's amazing what you can find when you actually look at the otherside of the argument.

If you think it's stupid, then please: disprove it rather than throwing nonsense at it. That's how forums supposed to work. It's no secret I'm for the remain campaign, but with us more or less staying neighbors, there's no point in making things personal. I'm not the EU and you're not the UK. To my understanding, we're residents trying to see why our countries are slipping apart.


It's the second time you mention scare mongering by the EU. However, all I'm reading is brexiteers interpreting things like this fee as such. I see it as cost of operations. There are EU officials in the UK that are to this day, doing work for the UK. Throughout the rest of the EU, the police is busy stopping migrants from overflooding the continent (Calais and Brussels North aren't that long ago). The budget for that comes from the EU. It's not scare mongering to say that if the UK wants to continue to have this policy, it should participate and thus pay for it.

Sure, not paying such a bill would certainly reduce some complexity. But at least you should take a unified stance on it. You can't say AND "we don't pay" AND "we should have continued access to galileo". Of course the EU won't stand for that. You'd do the same if the situation was reversed.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/poli...deals-Britain-countries-Project-Fear-campaign

But yeah, you're right, countries won't wanna deal with brexit britain the 5th largest economy in the world because we didn't pay you money you weren't legally owed.

Interesting article. But I've got to be honest: I simply don't believe it. The article (which is written 2 years ago, so from the 'era' that the negotiations still went relatively smooth with the EU) already mentions that Australia reversed its stance. And America...you know damn well that Trump can praise the brexit deal today and totally dishes it tomorrow.


@notimp: calm down, dude. I know that tensions are high because of opposite views, but your message would've hit harder if you didn't personally attack @shamzie like that.

 

[notimp]

It probably would - but I'm rather out for personal understanding this time. I mean - what are we doing, if after 27 pages we can still post the same agitation propaganda speeches, that were posted three years ago - devoid of any of the context - or what happened since then and think that we can lure in people simply because we present blond folks with a senator title to catch people with "theres perceived power in titles" plays. I mean the speech wasnt even held in front of an audience - that would have at least given it context in time (how people reacted and why - because of the point in time).

I mean - its been three years, and 27 pages, and we still arent over the outright paroles, that caused this thing in the first place... They stil have power.

Granted, I overstepped (language). I'm sorry. Maybe I should get another warning. But this time I dont want to win an argument, I want people to feel - that there is something wrong here. As in believes are so solid, that people resorted to presenting popular people in perceived positions of power again, "to win their argument". Look, that guy cant be wrong. Hes a senator. And democracy.

I mean... This is everything we try to prevent by discussing those things in the first place.

I mean those arguments in the video sound really good. They actually do. Very well crafted. Not much to do with reality if you take a closer look - but then hardly anyone does. Because if you dare to ever say, that democracy might fail all the time - it just failed 'upward' so far (in the long run) - you are the bad guy, because democracy is everything thats right with their societies for some people. A freaking concept people can be talked into going to wars for. Because their way of life certainly has to be better and more pure...

As with every highly abstract concept, thats loved by people - there are flaws. Now dont act like they are all 'caused by bad people' - namely the outgroup. Dont act like a populist for once in your life.

 

[notimp]

I have been officially warned for that language, btw. Everyone that has been on the receiving end can rejoice about that.

(And I still think that sometimes stepping over lines has to be proper, just because they are there. Depends on which line and how - but sometimes - try it out if you are so enclined and can gage the consequences. )

 

[H1B1Esquire]

Want to read something funny?

That wasn't really funny.
This was funny

Do you se anyone caring?

Don't lump everyone in there--if no one cared, you wouldn't have brought it up because no one would have made the info available to you.

ChinaXHK is not Brexit and I damn well did not read everything you posted....but...can I get you to write articles for me in the future? Maybe a cup of coffee with some spit takes....I'm really working on it.

 

[notimp]

800.000 HK residents care. Of course.

The rest of the world looks away, because of stated obvious reasons. Look how much the concept of democracy is worth these days. Not enough to start economic turmoil.

But then I can even understand that (keyword: internal affairs). And I used it to make my point about people believing in political concepts as something inherently good or bad. Its just not there.

That said. I much prefer democracy over any form of authoritarian rule - and wish HK residents all the best in their resistance struggle. But all the mainland has to do in this case is to play for time - and use attrition strategies. We all see it, we dont even comment anymore.

 

[H1B1Esquire]

Look how much the concept of democracy is worth these days. Not enough to start economic turmoil.

While there may be some similarities between Brexit and China (being China), there's a lot going on in China.
"
There's the backlash of one-child, economics, pollution, Tronald being an ass with tariff war, even the fact China is "unified", but oh-so-torn regarding "Iron girls" to "2nd-class citizens", Hong Kong-Taiwan-etc-,. being pushed into the control of China, and so on.

As to how any of this benefits the U.K. from Brexit, I guess there'll be more English teachers? Maybe Mandarin teachers will be a thing you'll see more of?

 

[notimp]

No direct parallels implied.

The one sentence that encapsulates Chinas current situation is - they have investment resources (money) _now_.

(And if whatever they are initiating currently (belt and road), doesnt work out (f.e. because america tries to curb their rise to the top (of course they do - I even predicted as much in this very forum )), they have massive issues 30, 40 years down the road. Their economy isnt sustainable. And by that I dont mean fancy smancy green economy talk - but real "size of the market, assets, resources, ..." -- and their societal peace is heavily linked to economic wellbeing. (If you'd be growing 10% GDP a year, as a society you'd be happy as well.. ) - if that stops - demografic issues, wealth accumulation issues (geographic), food shortages in certain parts... - so basically, Chinas current investments should better pay off. The 'problem' china had was, that it is large, and pretty different from region to region.))

The point I was making is, that "britain should have done brexit - because more democracy" is kind of a limp pony. Everything considered. I dont want to draw other parallels between GB and China for example.

 

[H1B1Esquire]

I dont want to draw other parallels beween GB and China for example.

That's completely fair and understandable--I just didn't (and won't) read some of the other posts in-between

Relating the two on democrazy (with regards to a lack of democracy),

Spoiler: everything

is already planned in advance. I'm sure theres a plan to take as much from the people as they can, while they play grab-ass with hookers or run drunk and naked in the groves of California woods.

The only real thing that matters is if the people (everyday, regular humans that can't buy a $10M yacht or write a law to ___) make enough noise and shun these assholes who think they deserve to be paid to tell you what to do.

So maybe the biggest benefit of Brexit: people will wake up, create a fair balance of power, and maybe, just maybe, get "politics" to where it needs to be to work for the people.

 

[luisedgarf]

I agree with @Taleweaver.
For example, if Greece would not have been a member of the EU, they would have been so much worse of.

Greece would had ended being a Russian or Chinese satellite, and from both a geopolitical and cultural point of view, that would be unacceptable for both Europe, the U.S. and the rest of the western countries, especially the NATO ones, as Greece is the craddle of the entire western civilization (along Rome) and having Greece as a Russian/Chinese ally would be monumental mockery from them to the NATO and the rest of the western civilization.