The benefits of Brexit - the future of the United Kingdom

Discussion in 'World News, Current Events & Politics' started by emigre, May 26, 2018.

  1. JoeBloggs777

    JoeBloggs777 GBAtemp Advanced Fan

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    when people vote against a treaty as Denmark did with the Maastricht Treaty, Ireland on the Nice Treaty and Ireland again on the Lisbon Treaty. EU Democracy is to force another referendum because they don't like the answer.

     
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  2. Xzi

    Xzi All your base are belong to the proletariat

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    Hard to say that the British system is much better when the people have no power in selecting the new prime minister. Not that the US is faring any better at the moment either, what with the electoral college and gerrymandering being given the go-ahead by the supreme court. True democracy seems to be dying out globally at an alarming pace.
     
    Last edited by Xzi, Jul 6, 2019
  3. shamzie

    shamzie Oh David de Gea <3

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    This is a terrible example. The British people had a say at the general election. Nobody complained when a labour PM quit and brown walked into the job. But still, It's terrible because the next PM is being selected by British people, just not all of us. They'll get their chance at the next general election. Voting ballots to conservative members have already gone out, where as Sweden's elected representatives had absolutely no say and were forced to accept it despite Sweden overwhelmingly rejecting it. Surprised you even tried to defend it to be honest.

    I'm not sure what you mean about the electoral college and gerrymandering, can you give me an update? The U.S has always used the Electoral College as far as I'm aware, why should it change now. Unless you mean something else and I completely missed the point which is very possible.
     
    Last edited by shamzie, Jul 6, 2019
  4. Xzi

    Xzi All your base are belong to the proletariat

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    IMO it's a bad system regardless of who's benefiting from it, as you can have several PMs quit during a single term. If selecting the new PM required a popular vote each time, perhaps there would be a greater sense of accountability to the people, and they'd be less inclined to abandon their duty.

    Representation within the electoral college has failed to keep pace with population growth over the years. As a result, states like Wyoming get the same amount of electoral votes as states that have twice its population or more. Gerrymandering only compounds this problem through oddly-drawn districts where representatives get to pick their voters instead of the other way around. It helps the minority to stay in power. The Republican-majority supreme court recently ruled that partisan gerrymandering couldn't be challenged in the courts, setting up 2020 as the election to end all elections. The party that wins will have the power to re-draw the district maps to favor themselves in all future elections, unless the ruling can be repealed by changing the make-up of the supreme court.

    Here's a visual representation of how gerrymandering works:

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by Xzi, Jul 6, 2019
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  5. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    On the future political development of Europe.

    Here - this sounds correct. I'll translate on the fly:

    --
    How you successfully negotiate, parisien politician aspirants already learn at the elite administrative school ENA. Their graduate Emmanuel Macron showed in textbook style, how you gain allies and how you play others against each other – and how shortly before the third act, you stage a little tamper tantrum. The EU-meetings would go on much too long, and would only consist of "hours of useless talks", the frech president ranted last monday evening, after another round of negotiation poker in brussels. This would forfeit "international credibility" and would not be "reputable" he added shrewishly.

    The next day arriving - he had what he wanted. EU president of the commission shall be the frankophile german Ursula von der Leyen, Head of the EZB the french Christine Lagarde. Both also are women, the same as the parity-supporter Macron had promised, and both are close to his political vision in regards to defense - or fiscal politics. Not angry anymore, but "happy" as the newspaper "Libération" writes, Macron returned to Paris – triumphant like Napoleon from his war campaigns.

    The third block bites
    The european parliament has still to agree to the deal. But Macron has already won: He has established himself on the european stage as a power factor that can not be navigated around. Many already doubted if he could repeat in brussels what he had shown in Paris first: the de-facto liquidation of the socialist and conservative established but old parties by means of his "En Marche" movement. After the european elections he formed a third block with the liberal fractions and blew up the german leading candidate concept with his version of back room diplomacy.
    (...)
    by Stefan Brändle (Austrian newspaper correspondant in Paris), 6.7.2019
    src: https://www.derstandard.at/story/2000105967136/macron-siegreich-in-der-eu-le-president-ist-wieder-da (german)
    --


    Thats all fun and well said. The short of it is, that shamzie was right here - and we get further integration in the European union. By what model is still outstanding.

    Also - this was basically the only progressive plan that was there for the entire european union to move anywhere. Which is also how you do those kinds of things ;) - is something that pops into my mind immediately. Good, that the first sentence of the article hints at that as well, then. :)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Jul 7, 2019
  6. shamzie

    shamzie Oh David de Gea <3

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    Democracy image.
     
  7. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    More information on that:


    Good that I went to the european election in May. Oh, wait - I didn't.

    (Regardless - minus the "omg people didn't get to decide the president of the European Commission" alarmism, because they never could in the past. There was a movement to change it this time, and let the frontrunners of each fraction become president, but then they all were stuffed with - ehem 'backbenchers' so one kind of saw that one coming...)

    Background again was the backroom stuff that Macron apparently left "very happy". France got the president of the ECB, and a president of the European Commission that should be very sympathico to expansion of european military forces, which France also likes. Apart from that von der Leyen should basically turn out to be a party devotee, and by that I mean the german fraction of the conservative party.. ;)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Jul 17, 2019
  8. kumikochan

    kumikochan GBAtemp Psycho!

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    That's not how it works, she can't do jack shit on her own. Power isn't absolute in the Union and even less than in the States where a Jackass like Trump can decide on shit on his own. Also she isn't the president but Charles Michel is plus the president even has less power.
     
  9. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    Also no, the president of the European Commission doesnt "decide on laws", the european parliament does.

    But the parliament cant "initiate" new laws, it can only vote and demand changes on proposals that come from the commision.

    see. https://www.esomar.org/what-we-do/news/23/news/159/news

    The president of the commission doesnt have much to do with "law making" either. In a direct sense.

    This is done, so that the european union acts more or less 'unidirectionally'. States within the union may have widely differing interests - so parliament proposing laws is kind of a tough thing to realize. Regardless, this is not how most direct democracies work - and this has been a point of contention for years. (With initiatives to change it, which still failed.. ;) The european parliament became more 'powerful' and thus involved regardless, just not as much, as in most direct democracies.

    The smaller states usually get kickbacks through other channels, but the direction of the european union is more or less decided by the bigger member states.
     
    Last edited by notimp, Jul 17, 2019
  10. supersonicwaffle

    supersonicwaffle GBAtemp Regular

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    Still, none of the lead candidates ended up as the president of the commission which was supposed to give the office legitimacy. Ultimately someone was put into office who didn't run for anything, not even MEP, who was Germany's secretary of defense 5 seconds ago and is seemingly fleeing to Brussels because of multiple scandals.
     
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  11. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    They (german conservative parties) had no other candidates. More or less. Also, france liked a pro military expansion one. So europe doesnt get an aspiring new figurehead. No charismatic person needed for that job in the following years... ;) Apparently.
     
  12. supersonicwaffle

    supersonicwaffle GBAtemp Regular

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    Of course they had other candidates, the European People's Party lead candidate was a German CSU politician who apparently wasn't put into office because there were major questions regarding his qualitifications because he has never held a significant office. However, people still turned out and voted for his party that he was the face of the campaign of. The lead candidate model was put into place specifically to prevent the situation that is happening now, putting someone into office who hasn't received a mandate from the sovereign.
     
  13. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    Manfred Weber?

    The guy that was against big data for a week, when he thought, that the public scandal around facebook would earn him votes, then never spoke about it again?

    (Hint: As facebook got fined 5 billion USD by the US government, their stock price rose.)

    That guy? Or the other ones, in that debate?
    https://gbatemp.net/threads/eu-debate-of-the-candidates-for-presidency-of-the-ec.538666/

    Let's just say that I'll go consiracy nut on that one and think for myself - that that was just useless theatre.

    (The production quality for the 'debate' alone, was so low... There was no money spent on it. It had no visibility on any meaningfuil news network, Weber was a moron, ... I paint my picture out of that, and the actual outcome.. ;)

    Oh, but Macron did argue in backrooms so superbly that the great charismatic Manfred Weber wasn't elected... Partly true as well I guess.)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Jul 17, 2019
  14. supersonicwaffle

    supersonicwaffle GBAtemp Regular

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    Yes Manfred Weber. Whether he was the right guy for the job or not isn't the point. The party which earned the most votes saw it fit to have him be their candidate for the commission presidency and communicated as much to the voters throughout the campaign only to have it end up in a bait and switch.
     
  15. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    So you put up a politically inexperienced candidate, that has no pull in any of the fractions of his party - because you think that he is 'the best man for the job', or because he is just motivated enough to drive through europe and do an entire election circus (as the only one of the candidates, btw), because he thinks it matters?

    Lets talk about Martin Schulz for a minute. The 'candidate that ran against Merkel' in the last german election season. The socialist party put him on a speaking trail that had him visit cities at a high pace, and without as much as a personal assistant. So he openly complained about, that he couldn't do the schedule anymore, because he was forced to go up on stages without having changed, in sweaty shirts - and then 'connect' to the people. And when he would change, he had to do it in his car, five minutes before stepping on stage.

    So for what its worth - the lesson I draw from that is - that sometimes as a political party you put up candidates - where you don't mind if they loose.

    You dont put up the experienced ones, the highly networked ones - but some poor shmuck that does it out of a duty to his party, or who has little to loose.

    Manfred Weber didn't seem like a valiant effort to change the system presidents of the commission get elected by in the EU. Furthermore - the personell issue ('Personalfrage') was openly put out there as to why this time it would take longer to have a President of the EC elected. Probably to calm markets.

    In the end - it doesnt matter in terms of outcome - I just dont think that many people will cry over Manfred Weber, not having become a (somewhat) more democratically elected candidate to the office of the EC. More democratically, because he got to speak to crowds, on an election trail.

    More in demand people, hardly ever have the time for that - which is an issue as well. (UvdL probably falls on neither side of that.. ;) )

    Also Manfred Weber came with his own program - that he actually was allowed to develop (with his constituency - hence the big data jab), which nobody wanted - so bye. Or in the other interpretation. Germany couldnt keep up with the back room diplomacy of france - so they had to conjure up another (more viable than Manfred Weber) candidate on short notice.

    I've posted both views in this thread. In the end - it doesnt matter.
     
    Last edited by notimp, Jul 17, 2019
  16. Youkai

    Youkai Demon

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    This will totaly help the right wing to start the next anti EU campaign
     
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  17. supersonicwaffle

    supersonicwaffle GBAtemp Regular

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    Again, Weber hasn't "lost" the election, his party has the biggest caucus in the european parliament effectively having won the election, the council just refused to recommend him for the presidency of the commission which can easily be seen as going directly against the will of the sovereign.

    OK, I'll just assume the point flies over your head so let me spell it out for you.
    With the rise of EU critical populists across the untion came a lot of questions regarding the democratic legitimacy of the commission and council, them flexing their muscle to effectively topple the sovereign will fuel them even more, as seen in this thread. The Post by @shamzie started this whole exchange about the commision presidency for christ's sake.
    On top of that, having taken measures to ensure the legitimacy like introducing the lead candidate model just to have it overthrown by the council makes it look like they're exactly right.
     
  18. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    Not necessarily.

    Center right will move more right it seems (with promises to appease to green voters in the first 100 days (if I've got that right)). France isnt necessarily out there to make Europe more socialist either. And the social democratic parties were the ones basically "dropped/divided" in the current backroom election drives (in the european parliament, they are more important still than in germany.).

    The right wing cant really openly protest a tighter military union in europe, which is the next outstanding project.

    Now it all depends on what france will actually do with having 'a better connection' to the ECB. Small steps.

    Of course, if you see the ENA educated Macron as the peoples tribune - you might think, that this is another socialist takeover.. ;)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Jul 17, 2019
  19. barronwaffles

    barronwaffles GBAtemp Fan

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    You really don't have your finger on the pulse of the 'right wing' at all, do you?
     
  20. notimp

    notimp GBAtemp Addict

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    I don't. But I don't see how they could openly oppose tighter military integration of europe on 'national sovereignty' grounds, and keep their voter numbers.

    (Center right could open with - its because of the immigrant scare - and far right stands there devoid of their main political argument.)

    That the president of the EC has been elected the same as in past years, also isn't that much of political dynamite.. ;)
     
    Last edited by notimp, Jul 17, 2019
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