'Fortnite' developers to launch Steam competitor 'Epic Games Store'

Shadowfied · Dec 5, 2018

FAST6191 said:
Statements like that and "I feel sorry for those losing their jobs" always confuse me when people make them. I almost wonder if it is some kind of virtue signalling.

Because pointing a dropbox account at your saves folder is so difficult? Indeed some years ago I had backup scripts, a briefcase and more to sort this sort of thing out.
As awful as the forums were gamefaqs seemed to provide such a thing well enough, give or take developer input so much (not like indy game devs have shown themselves to be above board here).
A mod frontend is not a new concept but they do seem to have a reasonable version of it. Still https://www.moddb.com/ and the things that predate it do fairly well here for the tiniest bit of effort.
Simple things I suppose.
There were login gates betas before but I will not begrudge them giving devs an API.
I used RDP for such things for a while, and stuff like Kaillera. But I have to wonder if it is more of a "technology finally caught up"

User reviews are frequently useful, not like they are hard to find otherwise though.
While I am more than happy to see someone try to oust MS after opengl fluffed it for games and chased the engineering and 3d graphics design world instead I am going to await the final results there. There have been any number of previous efforts and (be it porting houses or things like cedega), including Valve previously grumbling about things, so this is a "I deal in results" thing.
Most programming companies of any quality will allow their devs a bit of fun within their field. It is far from a revolutionary concept, indeed here is joelonsoftware (the prototypical tech insider blogger type in 2006 on the matter https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2006/09/07/a-field-guide-to-developers-2/ )

And all they ask if the ability for me to not resell my games, lend them to friends on my own terms, give them to friends when I am done. Nice trade that.

I was arguing for PC storefront <-> PC storefront, not about physical or digital media. Well, actually, that post was nothing more than telling of Steams progression that I've noticed since I started using it, so I'm not sure what your point is. I'm not saying anything they have done are technical marvels, I'm saying that it's amazing things that are integrated for free, that they have no obligation to provide.

How does any of Steams competition, apart for GOG, combat locking games to an account?

My point is that if we're gonna have a digital storefront on PC, let's at least use the one that provides the community with the best experience, or a DRM free experience, which we already have. I for one have nothing against having my games locked to Steam.

What a third party offers in terms of online services is completely irrelevant to me. I'm not saying Steam paved the way for reviews or cloud saving or writing guides, come on, my point is that it's all nicely integrated to the platform, and can even be accessed straight from within a game. Even if using a controller, playing on your TV. Bringing up GameFAQs on your TV with a controller isn't quite as much fun.

Also, for the average person, setting up a custom cloud save solution is not that easy. The average user does not care about custom scripts. I don't really see your point. I'm not arguing a technical possibility or workaround.

Why should a platform not be the best it can be? I really fail to see the point of your post apart from your very last statement which is a very reasonable opinion to have.

FAST6191 · Dec 5, 2018

Shadowfied said:
I was arguing for PC storefront <-> PC storefront, not about physical or digital media. Well, actually, that post was nothing more than telling of Steams progression that I've noticed since I started using it, so I'm not sure what your point is. I'm not saying anything they have done are technical marvels, I'm saying that it's amazing things that are integrated for free, that they have no obligation to provide.

How does any of Steams competition, apart for GOG, combat locking games to an account?

My point is that if we're gonna have a digital storefront on PC, let's at least use the one that provides the community with the best experience, or a DRM free experience, which we already have. I for one have nothing against having my games locked to Steam.

What a third party offers in terms of online services is completely irrelevant to me. I'm not saying Steam paved the way for reviews or cloud saving or writing guides, come on, my point is that it's all nicely integrated to the platform, and can even be accessed straight from within a game. Even if using a controller, playing on your TV. Bringing up GameFAQs on your TV with a controller isn't quite as much fun.

Also, for the average person, setting up a custom cloud save solution is not that easy. The average user does not care about custom scripts. I don't really see your point. I'm not arguing a technical possibility or workaround.

Why should a platform not be the best it can be? I really fail to see the point of your post apart from your very last statement which is a very reasonable opinion to have.

So they did half OK at the 10-foot UI thing (a thing mainline OS devs were a tiny bit slow on the takeup for, though not entirely without reason as it was and still remains a tiny bit niche) and some minor integration feats of otherwise trivial things*? Enjoy that if you want I guess but such a thing is so very far from warranting the kind of loyalty and defender of the cause thing that Steam seems to enjoy from the community at large, and nothing that was probably not already solved with a web browser years before Steam launched. As for "platform" I would say that was something of a solution in search of a problem, or maybe a hideous mutant that happened as a result of marginally related problem being solved.

*I agree most simple online storage things are not entirely trivial and there is space for someone to come along and make either a script with game save locations prebaked in there (we had better/such for cheats, wide screen games and more for years now). Also as it pertains to PC gaming what is this average user? PC gaming tended to bill itself as composed of people with a tiny bit of care for what they do. Also integration to that extent is not something I am sold on and is generally viewed with a bit of suspicion elsewhere in computing.

Anyway I am still not prepared to give up my second hand games and all the other things I mentioned. Very much a hill I am prepared to die on there.

Or if you prefer Steam is a DRM solution that attempts to strip me of the ability to easily resell/lend/gift games, one that acts as a drag on game devs (costs, the fun and games playing to their standards, getting games on), game consumers (all that puritanical nonsense a couple of years back), and what minor feats of integration, consumer perks and API stuff they do provide are many only given any virtue by them being something of a monopoly (if they were say 30% of the market how many of those would be things worth championing?). From a technical perspective they do some nice things with anti cheat ( https://www.pcgamer.com/uk/valve-wa...arning-approach-to-counter-strike-anti-cheat/ ) but that is marginally related at best.

They have not quite year gone beyond the pale (if they want to dupe people then so be it) but at the same time I will look on with amusement at anything which hurts them like this and gets them to sing for their supper.

Deleted User · Dec 5, 2018

Tbh more competition. Is good .I feel like steam and it's apps need a huge refresh. They look crap and dated. In some cases not readable. I feel like epic will do a good job on this. But nothing will stop me from using steam as I have so many games already locked into their ecosystem.

Supster131 · Dec 5, 2018

Shadowfied said:
What does this statement even mean? Of course we don't use them. We don't want them. Having one client and storefront to manage and go to is what most of us want. Steam provides way more features than any of these half assed hack fuck clients.

Man, imagine if people had this mentality with consoles, we'd be fucked. Consoles improve because of competition. The Xbox One was terrible before launch, but because of consumers not just going along with it and competition, the Xbox One now is really good.

Shadowfied said:
>They haven't really done anything to improve
Holy shit this is a fucking disrespectful statement to everyone who works on Steam.

Let's just see of the top of my head what they've done since I started using the fucking thing since 2003 when I was still on dial up..

- Cloud saving for free for users (not sure if devs have to pay for this, still, free for users)
- Community features and forums for users to discuss each game, and developers to manage it and post news to it
- Community guides written by users
- Built in mod support with Steam Workshop that any game can implement
- Customizable profiles - more so than any competition as far as I know
- Letting devs provide beta versions for games, even password protected ones
- Ability to stream games to other computers in your home (I think there's an Android client too)
- Ability to stream for your friends, and let friends request to watch you play
- Actual user reviews on game pages. People can actually write their thoughts on games to be displayed on the games page. You hear that M$, $ony and Ninty?
- Their controller initiative, letting basically any DInput device be properly used and remapped for any game
- Proton - getting basically every game on Steam playable on Linux in order to push for perhaps the biggest change in PC gaming, a stop to Microsofts strangehold with DirectX, and it's open source
- Investing money in letting employees contribute to open source projects such as Proton and more

That's just of the top of my head. Now I don't know what you consider "improving" but holy fuck, I am impressed with Steam. I've never seen any proprietary software with such a focus on community.

FAST6191 explained things well, imo, so I won't really go over the same points he said, but I'll try clarifying my original comment. By "not having improved", I meant within the last 5 years or so. Obviously anything that came out in 2003 must have improved since then. Sure, 5 years isn't a lot, but that shouldn't stop Valve from improving Steam. Sony and Microsoft have done well to improve their platforms in around the same time frame. Also, a lot of the points you're bringing up are offered elsewhere. You mentioned "M$, $ony, and Ninty", so I assume you're fine throwing in consoles into the mix. Again, some platforms offer most of the things you mentioned. I don't get why you don't want competition. More competition is great for the consumer.

Shadowfied said:
Sure, their customer support is ass, but at the same time, it's not like Origin where you actually need their support. In my 15 years of using the service, I've needed their support once, and that was to refund a game, which was solved in under an hour.

Eh, just because you've only needed to use their support once and you had a good experience doesn't really mean much. There's been a lot of horror stories where Steam customer support would take months if not a year to respond to an issue. How can a company not offer live support in 2018? Seriously? You said it doesn't need support like Origin, again a fallacy. People might have issues with anything on any platform. I've had to contact both Steam and Origin in the past because of some issues I had. Origin has Live support and was able to fix my problem quickly. Steam? They took months to respond and couldn't fix my issue. Go figure.

All I'm saying is competition is good. I understand that PC and console players are different, but come on, why do PC players hate competition and only love Steam?

Shadowfied · Dec 5, 2018

Supster131 said:
Man, imagine if people had this mentality with consoles, we'd be fucked. Consoles improve because of competition. The Xbox One was terrible before launch, but because of consumers not just going along with it and competition, the Xbox One now is really good.

That's a fair point. However, XBone vs PS4 is actual competition. I really, sincerely, do not see any of these launchers as competition to Steam. I get that Epic specifically are saying that it's about other devs too, but I'm talking about these other clients in general: They aren't trying to do what Steam is. They aren't trying to provide a way to facilitate PC gaming in one place for the users. They are using it as their own gateway to have full control of their own titles, not share a cut with Valve or any other client / storefront. Valve is barely even competing at the game level anymore.

Supster131 said:
FAST6191 explained things well, imo,

Um, unless I'm mistaken, Fast was actually arguing against DRMed digital distribution platforms as a whole. You're saying competition in this area is a good thing, so I don't see how Fast reasoned for any of your points.

Supster131 said:
By "not having improved", I meant within the last 5 years or so.

About half the points I listed were in the last 5 years.

Supster131 said:
Sony and Microsoft have done well to improve their platforms in around the same time frame.

I don't really see this. I wish I did, but to me, they pale in comparison to Steam in what they offer to players to facilitate the experience. While their focus obviously should be on the games themselves, I don't see much in terms of an improved user experience on their platforms, except for maybe streaming. If anyone actually uses that anymore.

Supster131 said:
Eh, just because you've only needed to use their support once and you had a good experience doesn't really mean much.

I already agreed that their support is ass. I do however think that how often you need to reach them is a vital piece in the discussion. A service that has a dedicated team 24/7 in India aren't providing a better experience because there's someone for you to talk to, or if it is, then we're judging support on really weird merits.

Supster131 said:
All I'm saying is competition is good. I understand that PC and console players are different, but come on, why do PC players hate competition and only love Steam?

I don't hate competition. But that's not what this is about. This is about fucking players over and dividing them. I'm sorry, but us having to go through 8 launchers to enjoy the AAA library on PC does not help any of the platforms get better. They aren't competing. I will, for the sake of this discussion, not speak about Epic yet, not that I have any expectations, but any of the other ones (GOG excluded) are not trying to improve PC gaming or the end users experience, and believing that is very naive to me.
Steam takes a hefty chunk of your paycheck, so the companies with big enough foundations create their own platform to get around that, do that. Because unlike the indie developer working his ass off out of his home, they don't need the trust or advertisement that marketing your game with being on Steam brings, cause they know people will flock to their games regardless. People will keep hounding at EA's door, blood thirsty for the new Battlefield, then go on to talk about how much EA sucks. Same with Assassins Creed. Same with Fallout 76. Same with Call of Duty.

The only good competition I see is GOG cause you can't get more consumer friendly than going DRM-less.

Edit:

Supster131 said:
why do PC players hate competition

Oh by the way! How am I more of a PC player, and less of something else, than you are?

SG854 · Dec 5, 2018

trevsweb said:
Tbh more competition. Is good .I feel like steam and it's apps need a huge refresh. They look crap and dated. In some cases not readable. I feel like epic will do a good job on this. But nothing will stop me from using steam as I have so many games already locked into their ecosystem.

I think a good healthy competition will be good for Steam in the long run.

Of all the store fronts epic games is one that is doing better then others, and even somethings better then steam. This will force steam to rethink how they do things, change, and we’ll get a better experience for us.

Supster131 · Dec 5, 2018

Shadowfied said:
That's a fair point. However, XBone vs PS4 is actual competition. I really, sincerely, do not see any of these launchers as competition to Steam. I get that Epic specifically are saying that it's about other devs too, but I'm talking about these other clients in general: They aren't trying to do what Steam is. They aren't trying to provide a way to facilitate PC gaming in one place for the users. They are using it as their own gateway to have full control of their own titles, not share a cut with Valve or any other client / storefront. Valve is barely even competing at the game level anymore.

I think the issue lies in it being a cycle. While not exactly the same as the issue the Wii U and Vita had (i.e no userbase, thus no games, which means no users), it is similar. A company releases a new client/store-front on PC. They might do somethings better and some other things worse. But, at least to the people I have talked to, they just don't want to give other options a try and just want to stick with Steam. This where the cycle lies. No one wants to try out new service, thus game devs don't bother releasing games on said new platform, thus not appealing to the consumer because it lacks what Steam "has" The same can kind of be said for features.

Shadowfied said:
Um, unless I'm mistaken, Fast was actually arguing against DRMed digital distribution platforms as a whole. You're saying competition in this area is a good thing, so I don't see how Fast reasoned for any of your points.

He brought up other things as well that didn't involve DRM. Regardless, I agree with him on the DRM stuff too. Exactly the reason why I am rooting for GoG.

Shadowfied said:
I don't really see this. I wish I did, but to me, they pale in comparison to Steam in what they offer to players to facilitate the experience. While their focus obviously should be on the games themselves, I don't see much in terms of an improved user experience on their platforms, except for maybe streaming. If anyone actually uses that anymore.

Don't really know how you can't see it. imo, the PS4 and, to a certain extent, the Xbox One have great social features. You say "except for maybe streaming. If anyone actually uses that anymore", yet you used streaming as a feature Valve added to Steam down the line.

Shadowfied said:
I already agreed that their support is ass. I do however think that how often you need to reach them is a vital piece in the discussion. A service that has a dedicated team 24/7 in India aren't providing a better experience because there's someone for you to talk to, or if it is, then we're judging support on really weird merits.

I'm not advocating for Indian support though. I have gotten a lot of Americans when I needed to contact Sony or Microsoft support, and a couple of Americans with Amazon support. Valve has the money to not cheap out on customer support.

Shadowfied said:
I don't hate competition. But that's not what this is about. This is about fucking players over and dividing them. I'm sorry, but us having to go through 8 launchers to enjoy the AAA library on PC does not help any of the platforms get better. They aren't competing.

To be fair, if I play devil's advocate, I could say the same thing about consoles. Different consoles divides the player base. Why must I spend $200 for a PS4 only to play Uncharted? $200 for an Xbox One to play Halo? $300 to play Pokemon? You see where I'm kind of getting at now? Having different options on PC or in the console market can be considered an inconvenience and maybe even a waste of money. I'm just hoping that one day, a company can create a robust client on PC that can actually compete with Steam and so there can be actual competition and improvement for everyone.

Taleweaver · Dec 5, 2018

(note: I just noticed this thread now. Haven't read all the comments yet).

I admit: when I first saw the article, I would've given epic a higher chance at succeeding than others (I'll get to that). But then I read the article, and my hopes sort of plummeted. Okay...lemme explain:

First of: I see people claiming that Epic "only has one successful game". That's a pretty large understatement. For one, gears of war and the unreal (tournament) franchise were juggernauts in their time. Heck...even Jazz Jack Rabbit is still fondly remembered. None of these will boost sales much, but it's already a fairly decent resume. And fortnite isn't "just" a success...it's the sort of runaway success that defies odds in and of itself. It's probably a bit early to compare it to minecraft, but it's certainly more than a fluke.
...and believe it or not, but even that isn't epic's biggest trump. It's their engine. Epic has been licensing out the unreal engine before anyone else did, so it has a pretty decent and loyal following. And unlike EA (worst company ever), bethesda (bugs everywhere!!!), ubisoft (aaaargggghhhh...Uplay!!!) and even blizzard (wtf is that diablo thing about?), they managed to stay clear of negativity. That's fairly decent for a start...

...but they're already starting on a bad foot, as far as I'm concerned. On the surface, the "more money for developers" seems fair. But on the long run? A lot of what valve takes is given back in terms of innovation and sales. I mean...both Gaben and Sweeney have made statements that microsoft was pushing their platform (windows) too far. But valve invested and threw proton on the market. And epic? As much as I love 'em, they didn't keep up. They don't even decently support their own games on linux, so it's all words for them.
To make matters worse...what the hell kind of a release scheme is that. "We'll release soon with a handful of curated games" ??? Erm...no. These sorts of announcements should be made when everything is already in place. In a couple weeks, everyone will have forgotten about it. On top of that...since everyone and their dog has a steam account, what incentive is there for users to create yet another account? They should have the largest number of games on their store they can get. A low number is just going to show what I sort of fearfully expect: exclusivity clauses. Valve will say something in the veins of "sure, you can sell your games on epic's platform. Go ahead. If you no longer want us to be your store, then well...good luck.

What? No, you can't just "sell on two stores". What would be in it for us?

".

SG854 · Dec 5, 2018

Taleweaver said:
(note: I just noticed this thread now. Haven't read all the comments yet).

I admit: when I first saw the article, I would've given epic a higher chance at succeeding than others (I'll get to that). But then I read the article, and my hopes sort of plummeted. Okay...lemme explain:

First of: I see people claiming that Epic "only has one successful game". That's a pretty large understatement. For one, gears of war and the unreal (tournament) franchise were juggernauts in their time. Heck...even Jazz Jack Rabbit is still fondly remembered. None of these will boost sales much, but it's already a fairly decent resume. And fortnite isn't "just" a success...it's the sort of runaway success that defies odds in and of itself. It's probably a bit early to compare it to minecraft, but it's certainly more than a fluke.
...and believe it or not, but even that isn't epic's biggest trump. It's their engine. Epic has been licensing out the unreal engine before anyone else did, so it has a pretty decent and loyal following. And unlike EA (worst company ever), bethesda (bugs everywhere!!!), ubisoft (aaaargggghhhh...Uplay!!!) and even blizzard (wtf is that diablo thing about?), they managed to stay clear of negativity. That's fairly decent for a start...

...but they're already starting on a bad foot, as far as I'm concerned. On the surface, the "more money for developers" seems fair. But on the long run? A lot of what valve takes is given back in terms of innovation and sales. I mean...both Gaben and Sweeney have made statements that microsoft was pushing their platform (windows) too far. But valve invested and threw proton on the market. And epic? As much as I love 'em, they didn't keep up. They don't even decently support their own games on linux, so it's all words for them.
To make matters worse...what the hell kind of a release scheme is that. "We'll release soon with a handful of curated games" ??? Erm...no. These sorts of announcements should be made when everything is already in place. In a couple weeks, everyone will have forgotten about it. On top of that...since everyone and their dog has a steam account, what incentive is there for users to create yet another account? They should have the largest number of games on their store they can get. A low number is just going to show what I sort of fearfully expect: exclusivity clauses. Valve will say something in the veins of "sure, you can sell your games on epic's platform. Go ahead. If you no longer want us to be your store, then well...good luck. What? No, you can't just "sell on two stores". What would be in it for us? ".

It’s seems to benefit devolopers more then consumers. Which people won’t care about. Unless they want to support epic since they give more of a cut to developers.

But I don’t think people will care about that and will use a store they see the most convinient.

Scarecrow B · Dec 7, 2018

I just hope they are more open minded than steam. After the waifus games ban wave from steam, then saying that they are not the 'taste police' and promising to allow anything that is not illegal or trolling just to start banning once again anything that triggers SJW, I really need a storefront that just lets people decide by themselves what games they want to/should play. I don’t need another company telling me what games I can or can’t play based on other peoples’ taste.

Taleweaver · Dec 7, 2018

...and it's (apparently) online: https://www.epicgames.com/store/en-US/?sessionInvalidated=true

They certainly weren't kidding when they said "soon"

(anyone remember the "2 weeks" meme when UT2003 was supposed to come out?

)

KingVamp · Dec 13, 2018

FAST6191 said:
Where something like USB charging is a useful thing to have just one standard for I do have to ask if it is useful to have just one monopoly on game sales and launching.

Literally one standard isn't what I was expressing with that. It was the so many/too many part.

Doesn't help that it seems like they are doing game exclusives.

FAST6191 · Dec 13, 2018

Are there though? For the most part it is Steam and then everything else. Having something actually rise up and dethrone Steam is no bad thing as they have repeatedly proven they can't handle the responsibility.

Anyway in my mind game launchers are still those things I saw... up until around Steam took over and would be little things that ask you what resolution you want to play with, and if you want full screen. To complain about having more than one then seems bizarre to me.

The Minish LAN · Dec 13, 2018

I've seen this in a lot of places, but it's a little unfair to call Epic Games the "Fortnite people" - they are one of the most important studios in the industry.

Unreal, Unreal Engine, the Unreal Tournament series and the Gears of War series were made by Epic Games.
Deus Ex (2000), every Bioshock game (2007/2010/2013), every Mass Effect game (2007/2010/2012), every Arkham game (2009/2011/2013/2015), and Mirror's Edge (2008), were developed using Unreal Engine - hell, even PUBG was made using Unreal Engine 4, as well as Kingdom Hearts III and the upcoming Final Fantasy VII remake. Countless more games, vital games to the video game industry's growth, are powered by Unreal Engine 1/2/3/4.

To say that the "Fortnite people" are growing "too big for their britches" by making a competitor to Steam is completely unreasonable - Epic Games, or back then, Potomac, was founded in 1991 while Valve was founded in 1996, giving them inherently more experience in the industry.
They've likely been planning this for years, and I have confidence that even if they can't beat the stranglehold that Steam has over the PC scene, they'll do a great job. Will definitely be installing the Epic Games Store on my PC.

Also, hey, Hades looks pretty cool.

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