ROM Hack RELEASE Xenoblade Chronicles 2 Name De-Localization

[Tsukiru]

But they did the same shit with names in xenoblade 3 so the efforts in this mod are just as necessary.

You missed the point of just being about 2's Japanese names, not to go on about Localizer "liberties".

Also most of the changes are left to side characters, so not really "just as necessary". There's a difference between Seiryu to Azurda compared to Yuzuriha to Juniper. Both are trees, and they also don't have to change or explain why she gets nicknamed to June (which is in the Japanese audio).

They did the "same shit" because it's their job, and it's more than appealing than just to you or me. Now if it were about including subtitles or names that matched the audio track and not this weird aggressive tone, that would be something different. Like it's not impossible, the game even shows the appropriate voice actors in its menus based on language so what happened there?

 

[Niko_of_Death]

You missed the point of just being about 2's Japanese names, not to go on about Localizer "liberties".

Also most of the changes are left to side characters, so not really "just as necessary". There's a difference between Seiryu to Azurda compared to Yuzuriha to Juniper. Both are trees, and they also don't have to change or explain why she gets nicknamed to June (which is in the Japanese audio).

I mean at least one of the (apparent) liberties he's presumably referring to (Yuzuriha's pronouns) would be within the scope of a successor project to this for 3. Also "they're both trees" doesn't really negate the necessity of a patch like this. Maybe the thematic differences are the only thing you care about, but having the japanese audio match is a huge part of the appeal of this mod to myself (and I presume many others).

 

[Tsukiru]

I mean at least one of the (apparent) liberties he's presumably referring to (Yuzuriha's pronouns) would be within the scope of a successor project to this for 3. Also "they're both trees" doesn't really negate the necessity of a patch like this. Maybe the thematic differences are the only thing you care about, but having the japanese audio match is a huge part of the appeal of this mod to myself (and I presume many others).

I'm not denying this mod has its purpose. It's why I used it, it's why I'm following it and bringing it up bugs. Just that how people talk about localization is bad and unhelpful. It isn't the scope of this mod nor is it anything beyond weirdly hostile.

Edit: Tried to find anything on Yuzuriha and ignoring less than welcoming places (4chan and KotakuInAction), literally one tweet from these types of people say their gender is unknown in Chinese too. Many people mentioning that Japanese doesn't often use pronouns, but unlike all the other female party members, there's no explicit mention them being a woman. Taking this all at face value... That's how pronouns work. They/them works when you just don't know. They're not pushing an agenda or saying anything about gender. It's just how words work. You (hypothetical person, I'm not going to see their messages anyways) would be mad that they properly carried over the intent properly. You're (hypothetical) treating they/them as like some 3rd gender... Which isn't the point of a gender neutral term. Anyone who complains about this genuinely is being incredibly stupid and shouldn't ever be taken seriously. This isn't a real problem well meaning people have to deal with, it's only for those who genuinely have nothing better to do.

 

[Niko_of_Death]

I'm not denying this mod has its purpose. It's why I used it, it's why I'm following it and bringing it up bugs. Just that how people talk about localization is bad and unhelpful. It isn't the scope of this mod nor is it anything beyond weirdly hostile.

I think you're really overplaying their hostility. People talking about their opinions on the changes this reverts (and does not) is a natural discussion to have in regards to the project, and their rhetoric is very mild in the grand scheme of localization "debate".

 

[Tsukiru]

I think you're really overplaying their hostility. People talking about their opinions on the changes this reverts (and does not) is a natural discussion to have in regards to the project, and their rhetoric is very mild in the grand scheme of localization "debate".

Being "mild in the grand scheme" really isn't a good defense to still being pretty fucking weird about it. Not really a good tone setter with "same shit" or calling everything cringy. I kind of reasonably don't want to constantly hear that rhetoric back to back to back. Neither is it really a discussion when it just comes off just hating because it was changed and not actually talking about the changes. And again, for a different game. We're even sure if Archerboy is gonna touch 3.

 

[Niko_of_Death]

Being "mild in the grand scheme" really isn't a good defense to still being pretty fucking weird about it. Not really a good tone setter with "same shit" or calling everything cringy. I kind of reasonably don't want to constantly hear that rhetoric back to back to back. And again, for a different game. Not even sure if Archerboy is gonna touch 3.

Well he was talking about (and asking for help with) cracking the new bdat format so I presume he's at least interested in it.

 

[Tsukiru]

Well he was talking about (and asking for help with) cracking the new bdat format so I presume he's at least interested in it.

That's probably a good sign then.

 

[DeusSolaris]

I don't know why you got so hostile, I just want to play Japanese games with translations instead of localizations even if it's thought a mod.
I like Japanese culture, their humor and the way they do things. Even if they "gave green light" to the localization changes it doesn't mean I have to like those changes.
They also "gave the green light" to having a bunch of prudes from Nintendo of America working with them to tell them what is or isn't appropriate for "global audiences" but I don't have to like that either.

 

[moonblood666]

But they did the same shit with names in xenoblade 3 so the efforts in this mod are just as necessary.

Indeed. I don't see the reason for the hostility. If people are fine with the localization changes it's their prerogative, but that doesn't change the fact that there are as many who'd love to have a de-localization patch.

Aside from the names I'd rather see Yuzuriha nor referred to as they as outside of the woke social media bubble it feels extremely weird characters referring to what is clearly a girl with such pronouns.

Also: the fake/localizer fan fiction swearing! I simply cannot play this game with reading "spark" for whenever a swear word is used in the Japanese version. I'll die from cringe.

 

[rsc-pl]

You missed the point of just being about 2's Japanese names, not to go on about Localizer "liberties".

Do you realize that this patch is for names only because these people that were working on it don't have enough time, knowledge about translation and people to work on it to make it bigger scope project? No matter what you say, this game is desperately crying for fan re-translation. If Fire Emblem Fates got one for the same reason, why not do something for this game that is even worse then Fates in this matter? This is one of the worst and the most xenophobic localizations ever. I don't even know how anyone who is a bit more interested in story, characters and general Japanese culture could EVER defend something this bad.

First of all - this thread is dedicated to the delocalization patch. What are you even trying to do here with posts like this? You're saying something about being hostile? It's a whole new dimension of hypocrisy.

There's a difference between Seiryu to Azurda compared to Yuzuriha to Juniper. Both are trees, and they also don't have to change or explain why she gets nicknamed to June (which is in the Japanese audio).

What are you even talking about? Yuzuriha is a normal Japanese name. Yes, it has meaning like most Japanese names. Momo = peach, Kurumi = walnut, Himari = sunflower, Sakura = cherry E T C. Does it mean that it need to be altered because it means something? Give me a break. Western Nintendo (their 1st/2d party games) is probably the last game company which is still doing this shit in 2022.

 

[moonblood666]

They/them works when you just don't know. They're not pushing an agenda or saying anything about gender. It's just how words work. You (hypothetical person, I'm not going to see their messages anyways) would be mad that they properly carried over the intent properly. You're (hypothetical) treating they/them as like some 3rd gender... Which isn't the point of a gender neutral term. Anyone who complains about this genuinely is being incredibly stupid and shouldn't ever be taken seriously. This isn't a real problem well meaning people have to deal with, it's only for those who genuinely have nothing better to do.

Due to the nature of the Japanese language terms like 彼女 are oftentimes omitted, but that doesn't mean that it is deliberately done to hint at some non binary identity, it's just how Japanese is used. That's why most MTLs f*ck up he or she. Moreover: Most localizations only use "they" if a character is masked or unknow how they look like. Because Japanese oftentimes omits pronouns that could indicate what gender a character is you sometimes have no choice to use they. BUT: when you see it's a girl you use "she/her" in a localization. That's how literally every localization handles the subject matter. But it seems the XB3 localization team had something else in mind.

I haven't played the game yet, but if the localization team uses they for Yuzuriha even though the party sees that it's a girl it is clearly out of identity politics reasons and in relation to the non binary English VA.

 

[Tsukiru]

Also: the fake/localizer fan fiction swearing! I simply cannot play this game with reading "spark" for whenever a swear word is used in the Japanese version. I'll die from cringe.

Yeah I don't get the swearing changes. They managed to get "bitch" in a voiced line but not a single damn? If it was Hell I would understand, it doesn't really make sense for this world but no damn?

Due to the nature of the Japanese language terms like 彼女 are oftentimes omitted, but that doesn't mean that it is deliberately done to hint at some non binary identity, it's just how Japanese is used. That's why most MTLs f*ck up he or she. Moreover: Most localizations only use "they" if a character is masked or unknow how they look like. Because Japanese oftentimes omits pronouns that could indicate what gender a character is you sometimes have no choice to use they. BUT: when you see it's a girl you use "she/her" in a localization. That's how literally every localization handles the subject matter. But it seems the XB3 localization team had something else in mind.

I haven't played the game yet, but if the localization team uses they for Yuzuriha even though the party sees that it's a girl it is clearly out of identity politics reasons and in relation to the non binary English VA.

Oh cool someone who hasn't played the game and is talking about "identity politics". Their gender is unknown, not explicitly nonbinary. While many fan translation use she/her, many other have pointed out (as I said) there is nothing that explicitly mentions Yuzuriha's gender. The use of "they/them" is because it is unknown. Other localizations use it the same way, not "literally every". It just so happens many games don't have someone outright unknown.

Again, I've played and beaten the game. Yuzuriha is a mandatory Hero with a travel skill, and no one talks about their gender is "sees it's a girl" from the dialogue I've seen. Nor is there any indication that any other dialogue was changed to push this vague "identity politics". Again, Worldwide release so they were likely working very close with the Japanese team. It's one character you do not have to interact with past their Hero Story. It's more likely they asked and confirmed the Japanese team what they meant and not this silly idea "they had different ideas in mind!"

 

[archerboy]

Well I guess this is a good time as ever for a brief update

XB2
v2 should be in progress later in the year, earlier if the bugs of v1 are too much for people.
We also have a rough alpha of Torna DLC that required some questionable script hacking to work, not sure if I can throw up since it has to be the whole ard.
At the inception of the mod I kind of envisioned having a 'Lite' version that handled only names and a 'Heavy' version that was one step before a full, and contentious, rewrite (Blushy-Crushy vs moe, Orphion vs Serpent, Fiora vs Fiorung etc).
The person who originally handled the bdat process has always had such a busy schedule that rapid iteration was an impossibility for one, let alone two versions. But now that I've finally took it upon myself to figure it out and establish a 'pipeline', the project can recommence. And in doing so, I decided to take a crack at 3.

XB3
A mod should be possible but how soon is totally up in the air.
The same DLC hack for 2 works to allow bdats of larger sizes, however the format of the bdat has changed from 2/DE meaning larger strings will most likely require entire data table restructuring. If anyone loves hex editing please feel free to help me slam my head against a wall.
If the bdat format somehow does get reverse-engineered, this mod will probably also have two flavors: one smaller for names and locations, one larger one for side-characters, spark/snuff, etc. These are all obviously subjective changes so the more feedback, the better.

 

[Tsukiru]

Spark/snuff, etc.

Now this is the sparkin' good stuff (I'm sorry).

 

[moonblood666]

The use of "they/them" is because it is unknown. Other localizations use it the same way, not "literally every". It just so happens many games don't have someone outright unknown.

I have not once seen a localization where they/them is used for what clearly looks like a female character. Literally always when a character looks like a girl but the script doesn't specify it (which is often due to the nature of Japanese language) "she" is used. There are countless characters or side characters in games and anime where terms like 彼女 aren't used to refer to them, but it's always implied by the character design/look to use she or he. This would be literally the first time I've seen they/them...

...and what a coincidence that a non binary VA is used in English here.

Point being: These characters see a person who looks clearly feminine, like a girl, but they call her "they/them" like some Twitter activists. What sparked their revelation? Did they see Yuzuriha's Twitter bio with pronouns hover over her (I refuse to call Yuzuriha they/them on principle) head? So why not calling every character they meet from here on out "they/them?" Why singling Yuzuriha out? It's nonsense!

 

[Tsukiru]

I have not once seen a localization where they/them is used for what clearly looks like a female character. Literally always when a character looks like a girl but the script doesn't specify it (which is often due to the nature of Japanese language) "she" is used. There are countless characters or side characters in games and anime where terms like 彼女 aren't used to refer to them, but it's always implied by the character design/look to use she or he. This would be literally the first time I've seen they/them...

...and what a coincidence that a non binary VA is used in English here.

Point being: These characters see a person who looks clearly feminine, like a girl, but they call her "they/them" like some Twitter activists. What sparked their revelation? Did they see Yuzuriha's Twitter bio with pronouns hover over her (I refuse to call Yuzuriha they/them on principle) head? So why not calling every character they meet from here on out "they/them?" Why singling Yuzuriha out? It's nonsense!

Project SEKAI also features a character hiding their identity and uses They/Them as well. Even before the official EN release, the fanbase used They/Them. Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, not does it matter. That's on you.

Who fucking cares if they look feminine or doesn't make sense to you? "I refuse to use they/them out of principle" is a weird ass approach on its own and shows this is just a you problem. Again, you haven't played the goddamn game. From my memory, other Heroes are often talked about in universe. They know Ashera because she's popular with Defenders across Keves. Many are former friends or have allies with them that refer to them. Like you said, the nature of Japanese is different and doesn't use pronouns the same way. But if the intent was to be Unknown and for a language that does use pronouns, you'd use they/them. This isn't about identity politics. Again, this is just how words work. The game isn't gonna sit you down and explain how pronouns work.

And drop "Twitter Activists". You sound terminally online and like you don't know the world is more than Twitter.

 

[rsc-pl]

I have not once seen a localization where they/them is used for what clearly looks like a female character. Literally always when a character looks like a girl but the script doesn't specify it (which is often due to the nature of Japanese language) "she" is used. There are countless characters or side characters in games and anime where terms like 彼女 aren't used to refer to them, but it's always implied by the character design/look to use she or he. This would be literally the first time I've seen they/them...

...and what a coincidence that a non binary VA is used in English here.

Point being: These characters see a person who looks clearly feminine, like a girl, but they call her "they/them" like some Twitter activists. What sparked their revelation? Did they see Yuzuriha's Twitter bio with pronouns hover over her (I refuse to call Yuzuriha they/them on principle) head? So why not calling every character they meet from here on out "they/them?" Why singling Yuzuriha out? It's nonsense!

Most of other female characters are never called directly "women" or "girl" in this game. So they should be called "they" too (by this logic). Arguing about this is a waste of time. Any sane person know it's a girl. Only certain type of people will be questioning it. As you said - what a coincidence that this particular one is called like this when she has that kind of person as a dub VA.

 

[moonblood666]

This isn't about identity politics. Again, this is just how words work. The game isn't gonna sit you down and explain how pronouns work.

Again, if they see a character who clearly looks feminine the normal approach is to call her "she." That's what a normal person who is not on Twitter 24/7 would do in real life when meeting a woman/girl you have never seen before. If the story made the whole non binary thing an official theme of the game I'd accept it, but calling a female looking character they/them without there being a very story specific reason is simply put: identity politics and nothing else. The localization makes it seem like the characters are not actual people but some Twitter users and that is immersion breaking for me.

 

[Tsukiru]

Again, if they see a character who clearly looks feminine the normal approach is to call her "she." That's what a normal person who is not on Twitter 24/7 would do in real life when meeting a woman/girl you have never seen before. If the story made the whole non binary thing an official theme of the game I'd accept it, but calling a female looking character they/them without there being a very story specific reason is simply put: identity politics and nothing else. The localization makes it seem like the characters are not actual people but some Twitter users and that is immersion breaking for me.

Your suspension of disbelief is pretty piss poor if you break at "oh no they're using they/them". You don't need a story reason. You'd be complaining instead they're focusing too much on "identity politics". I already told you other languages treat them as unknown. And there isn't going to be a scene built in to focus on their identity. So of course the game isn't going to explain it, and the best approach without awkwardly inserting a new scene is just use they/them off the bat.

"The localization makes it seem" for a game you haven't played yet so you don't have any actual basis besides just hearing the use of they/them. No it doesn't, I didn't find out until this was mentioned here passively. Nothing in the game calls them nonbinary. And one article from one person is not the mouth of localizers. That is their interpretation that is entirely on them. Nor is it any less valid just because they see an identity in how it's written. It's kind of how storied work.

"Twitter users" are actual people too. Listing how you want to be referred to does not suddenly change that. Just because you personally have not encountered people like that (and seemingly dismiss anyone who does have their preferred pronouns) doesn't make them "not actual people". That's on you for not treating them like fellow people in the first place and a matter of who you surround yourself with.

 

[moonblood666]

I already told you other languages treat them as unknown. And there isn't going to be a scene built in to focus on their identity

The problem is that by using "they/them" they are explicitly focusing on identity. Again: when a normal person in real life sees what is clearly a woman or girl the expected reaction is to say "she." The "they/them" sticks out like a sore thumb when used directly in front of a female looking person who does not specfically say that she doesn't want to be referred as she but they. The natural reaction in real life is to assume it's a woman if it looks like a woman. Using "they/them" the first moment you meet someone is not what normal people do in real life but what Twitter users do on Twitter. Real life is not Twitter... And the game world should not mimic Twitter either.

Listing how you want to be referred to does not suddenly change that. Just because you personally have not encountered people like that (and seemingly dismiss anyone who does have their preferred pronouns) doesn't make them "not actual people".

That's another story all together. When said person insists to be called "they/them" in real life I respect their feelings and do so after being corrected. But I don't go through real life in Twitter mode. Statistically alone there is an astronomically higher probability that a woman I don't know identifies as she and not they.

That's why it is so weird seeing these characters act like Twitter users (using they/them the moment they meet someone). They don't behave like people in real life, but like Twitter users, that's what I meant.

What's even weirder is how Yuzuriha is the only one who they call "they/them," no? How comes? Did the main characters check her Twitter bio?

That's my criticism about the localization choice.