?
  1. Absolutely: with the pandemic, it's more important than ever to vote from home

    47.7%
  2. Yes. The system's being used since forever, so I trust it'll be fine

    9.2%
  3. Neutral. I will/won't cast my vote regardless of what's being said or done

    5.5%
  4. No. I don't really trust the process (anymore)

    4.6%
  5. Absolutely not. It's a mass fraudulent system

    22.9%
  6. I'm not a US citizen, so my opinion is irrelevant (though probably in the comments below :P )

    9.2%
  7. Other, namely...

    0.9%
  8. 109 voter(s)
  1. Taleweaver

    OP Taleweaver Storywriter
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    Okay, I'm curious again...I think it was @Xzi who mentioned somewhere "mail in voting" is the same thing as "absentee voting", which would be pretty embarrassing for Trump if that was true, because he loathes the first and thinks the second is fine.

    And after some google-fu, I gotta say that @Xzi is mostly right. This page explains the difference, but I can barely summarize their conclusion any further:

    • An absentee ballot is generally used in every state to refer to a ballot filled out by a voter who cannot, for various reasons, physically make it to a voting location on Election Day.
    • A mail-in ballot is used more broadly to refer to ballots sent through the mail, including in all-mail voting states and some forms of absentee voting.
    Meaning: Trump is perfectly okay with voting by mail you're physically unable to get to the voting station, but thinks there's massive fraud involved if you want to vote by mail because e.g. a covid-19 pandemic. And...okay, I'm about most of the time in the critics camp so I can just call "this makes no sense :wacko:" and be done with it...but usually his dumb controversial remarks have at least a political, malicious and/or divisive narrative. I can name (plenty of) examples, but that's not the point. What I'm getting at: this makes no sense for republicans either.


    TL;DR news is often a good source of inspiration (IMHO, of course), but this piece is great even to their standards. Not only does it neatly packages the conflicting information and debunks Trumps lies, but also points out that veterans and elderly are both groups often voting by mail AND voting republicans. In other words: he's actively busy sabotaging his own re-election.

    The weird thing is that this goes beyond his usual "controversy of the week". Suing Nevada for making it easier for everyone to vote...really? :glare: All a judge (apparently) has to do is point out that their neighboring state Utah has done it for centuries without a hitch and dismiss the entire case (and that's even before the arguments "it's been done since the civil war" and "there's a pandemic out there" make it to the table).

    Oh, and of course I cannot not mention Trump's suggestion to ignore the constitution and delay the election. That obviously hinges on the idea that "mail in voting is bad" is accepted, which is a common staple. Worse: his own petty argument against it ("we might not know the results of the election on election day itself") is countered by the fact that he replaced the US postal service direction, resulting in more delays on letters being delivered.

    Now...as a European, I'm very well aware that me setting up this poll and framing it like this (assuming you read this rant before casting your vote) might rub you the wrong way. I'm sorry about that, but I really want to know how US residents are seeing their election chances(1). Hence this poll. With a "I'm not from the US so my opinion's really irrelevant" option.

    Thanks for voting. ;)



    (1): in case anyone's curious - and the umpteenth Belgian attempt at forming a government since last year fail - I'll make a blog or even a thread about what'll happen then. But for the moment, we Belgians aren't summoned to cast our votes anytime soon. :)
     
    Last edited by Taleweaver, Aug 7, 2020
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  2. CallmeBerto

    CallmeBerto The Lone Wanderer
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    I'm all for absentee voting because of the following -

    "To get an absentee ballot, a registered voter must request one through their state government, which accepts or rejects the application."

    In fact that should be the gold standard; though I'm not sure how many people know about this method as it is something I've been doing since I could vote.
     
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  3. alevan

    alevan Advanced Member
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    Vote by mail gives the possibility of fradulent voting. This is a fact. My country is also debating it.

    Online voting is the future. But for it to work, every old analog ID card needs to be changed to one with and DIC (digital indentification chip), so at least fraud can be stopped on the user side.
     
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  4. spotanjo3

    spotanjo3 GBAtemp Legend
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    I am a dual citizens. So, no vote for me. Corrupt politicians, that's why. Don't trust the world. NONE.
     
    Last edited by spotanjo3, Aug 7, 2020
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  5. ghjfdtg

    ghjfdtg GBAtemp Advanced Fan
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    Not from the US but gave my opinion anyway. Voting by mail has always been allowed (in my country too) and should still be this time. Everything else is manipulation.
     
  6. slaphappygamer

    slaphappygamer GBAtemp Psycho!
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    I “mail-in” my “absentee” ballot all the time. They are the same fucking thing. I don’t know why some would risk spreading this god forsaken disease to do things “the traditional way”. Voter fraud, if it happens again, will happen regardless of mail in/absentee ballot or in person. Probably more likely if voting by online, though.
     
    Last edited by slaphappygamer, Aug 7, 2020
  7. Hanafuda

    Hanafuda GBAtemp Psycho!
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    https://nypost.com/2020/08/05/84000-mail-in-ballots-disqualified-in-nyc-primary-election/

    Not saying it can't be done. Just saying it can't be done in the USA on short notice like this and expect a reliable, uncorrupted result.

    And as CallMeBerto explained above, an absentee ballot is not exactly the same. It must be specifically requested, with good cause for needing it, by a specific individual voter. A universal mail-in election in the USA would require mailing a ballot to every registered voter (not even sure if that would satisfy the Democrats), and we already know the voter rolls here are very, very full of incorrect, duplicate, and dead names. Every attempt to purge the voter rolls of inaccuracies is met with litigation warfare. Add to that the inefficient and unreliable performance shown by the USPS in the NY primary (see link above) .... it would be a clusterfuck of mammoth proportions.
     
    Last edited by Hanafuda, Aug 7, 2020
  8. Deleted User

    Deleted User Newbie

    USPS was kneecapped by the president, he removed (more) funding for it. So when you remove funding for it, obviously it's going to perform worse. Which then they begin to say "they don't need the money, look they are doing bad" and start axing more out of it. That's essentially what happened to USPS. Second, the cause of absentee reason can be from corona virus, and some states don't even ask for a reason.
    Third, voter fraud by absentee happens only about 3-7 cases (not a %, CASES) per election year.
    Fourth, you do know people check ballots right? Is it really that hard to check if a dead guy is dead? No, not really.
    fifth
    https://www.ncsl.org/research/elect...able-14-how-states-verify-voted-absentee.aspx
    there are forms of verification. I would presume that all the bills with vote by mail, uses the same verification by a state by state bases (it would make more than plenty sense to do so) It's not like people are getting nameless ballots, and able to just chuck them in without any way to verify it was them. Which conveniently goes back to needing to be registered to vote
     
    Last edited Aug 7, 2020
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  9. Taleweaver

    OP Taleweaver Storywriter
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    It's a good reply. Better than I had anticipated, even. Thanks for that. :)

    I gotta play the criticaster and say that it doesn't address some important points I mentioned (as well as @monkeyman4412 ), but at least it shows a reason.

    You say it can't be done in the USA on a short notice. Okay...but the election day's still three months away. Even with lockdown measurements in place, I can't really say that's way too short notice. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough earlier, but most of the system is already in place. And for the government workers, simply sending one ballot to every registered voter in the state is an easier task than individually checking who should get one and who doesn't.

    Erm...in a normal democracy, I honestly don't see how this would be a problem(1). But I'll give you this: I believe you that this will be a hurdle because it CAN be a hurdle. Hmm... :unsure:

    If I'm honest: I've heard of voter suppression stories before Trump rode into town, which always struck me as a bit off. All Trump really did was make it more blatantly obvious. If democrats would certainly win if everyone would be able to vote (I'm not making this up: Donald actually said this very thing almost literally when attacking the Nevadan law change)...then any outcome where they don't actually win is a blame against democracy(2). To circle back on your earlier remark: in a normal situation, I'd certainly agree that any absentee ballot should be requested and granted on an individual level(3). But a global pandemic that killed over 150'000 citizens is something I would call worthy of an exception. Voting shouldn't be a matter of life and death. Perhaps if there isn't an alternative, but there IS an alternative. Not one without its own share of problems (I hear ya, man :unsure: ), but IMHO problems that can be fixed. Or are you really saying that what they're doing in Utah is just too far out of reach for the peasant other states?



    (1): an election is held by the government. The same government that oversees births, deaths, immigration and emigration (among other things), so de facto knows who is elligible to vote. If those population charts aren't allowed to check on voter registrations, then there's a problem in THAT department
    (2): the 'popular vote' not always providing the president is the obvious example here.
    (3): that's how normal election absentee situations are solved in Belgium as well, btw. Well...the exact opposite, really (voting's obligated here...so you need an excuse NOT to vote), but the same principle
     
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  10. CallmeBerto

    CallmeBerto The Lone Wanderer
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    An important note from the article

    ""These numbers show how vote by mail fails," said J. Christian Adams, PILF's president and general counsel. "New proponents of mail balloting don’t often understand how it actually works. States like Oregon and Washington spent many years building their mail voting systems and are notably aggressive with voter list maintenance efforts. Pride in their own systems does not somehow transfer across state lines. Nevada, New York, and others are not and will not be ready for November.""

    One day? I think so but not this round.
     
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  11. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    Jebus...

    You send mail in ballots to people who registered, that way you get current living addresses, you make sure they need an id document to receive the letter (or to 'order' it), otherwise it goes back to the sender.

    If that happens to one sixth of your ballots, you used an old address database, probably because you cant have people registering and also have a high adoption rate at short notice (?). That doesnt mean, that the system is broken (still no voter fraud possible, ballots go back to the sender), or 'will never work'.

    Means, you need to work on your address databases. No?

    Hence, this is not at all a structural reason how vote by mail fails. More a 'Bob in administration was sleeping for the past five years' issue.
     
    Last edited by notimp, Aug 9, 2020
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  12. Hanafuda

    Hanafuda GBAtemp Psycho!
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    The left vehemently opposes any kind of ID requirement associated with voting here. They claim it is racist and suppresses the vote.

    The left takes the government to Court anytime there is an attempt to audit, update, or cleanup the voter registration rolls. And in most large cities, the left runs the local government so there is rarely any attempt to do anything. We have scores of dead people registered to vote here, people registered in multiple jurisdictions, illegal aliens registered ... there are basically no controls, no checks on names getting put on the lists. Hypothetically with mail in voting you could set up a dummy address, register hundreds to that address, and get ballots sent there. There will be rules against this of course, but the local government clerks and election officials will rarely enforce or investigate. And once the election's over, nobody wants to hear about it anymore.

    https://justthenews.com/politics-po...allot-applications-sent-dead-people-and-wrong

    If you read the article above, besides many other errors, apparently an absentee ballot application was sent to someone's pet.

    https://alexandrialivingmagazine.com/news/absentee-voter-mailings-cause-confusion-across-virginia/


    Neither CallmeBerto or me have said it could never work. But for it to work, it have to be a different system where ID is required and some connection to the community and physical address to which the ballot is mailed is shown for each election cycle to ensure one counted vote per each live person voting.
     
    Last edited by Hanafuda, Aug 10, 2020
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  13. Lacius

    Lacius GBAtemp Legend
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    There's no evidence for substantive voting fraud comitted via mail-in voting in the United States, and there's no reason why main-in voting shouldn't be accessible to every American.

    If Republicans thought mail-in voting benefited them, they'd be championing it right now.
     
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  14. notimp

    notimp Well-Known Member
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    Bring the full argument.

    https://www.wired.com/story/voter-id-law-algorithm/

    In the US a comparatively high percentage of the black population doesnt own an ID. (In Europe none of this is even thinkable as you need an ID for basically every essential step in setting up a 'normal' life.)

    All of this is mostly legacy:
    src: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_ID_laws_in_the_United_States
    New system still is stupid, but better.

    The key is, that you get a way to do 'two factor authentication', so 'address and ID' to prevent easy manipulation.

    If you only have one factor (we be sending mail ballots to addresses), that could be abused. As 'one sixth' of mail ballots in the article above were undeliverable - I'm now curious what that meant.

    Surely - mail ballots were only sent out to people that requested them, and during that request procedure, someone at least checked an ID, or a drivers license? (It doesnt matter so much if you check identity at delivery, or at the 'order' stage.)

    I'd be veeeeeery suprised if not.

    edit: Ok, the postal service designated them as 'udeliverable'. So postal service checks ID in that situation right?
    -

    Regardless, you could still keep the 'vote without an ID' option at the ballot box, and have lets say a third, or half of your votes via mail ballots, and it would help during the corona crisis. If you send out vote ballots per mail, you _need_ a two factor something (matching person to address) - you cant just send them out to addresses and not care who picks them up. From the article you posted - that happened (postal service marked 200k ballots 'undeliverable').

    Thats still not a structural issue going against mail ballot voting. Thats still just a what a horrible database are you managing issue. ;)


    Structural issue is, that people voting per mail in ballots could be pressured to vote a certain way - and you dont have 'cast your vote in a public space' to prevent that.

    A 'sell me your vote' culture shouldnt develop the first time around though. So if you pull the 'lets make an exception for covid' card, it should still be ok, It would become an issue, if more people start to do that regularly during elections.
     
    Last edited by notimp, Aug 10, 2020
  15. Glyptofane

    Glyptofane Death Dealer
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    And it will only cost $25 billion to have the election stolen, what a deal!
     
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  16. emigre

    emigre i am a free i am not man a number
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    Here in Blighty, we've had postal voting for a while and it'll probably be promoted more for next year's elections. I've only voted via postal despite a polling station being less then five minutes from my house.
     
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    Deleted User Newbie

  18. Hanafuda

    Hanafuda GBAtemp Psycho!
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    Have you ever been concerned about corruption within your postal service influencing the outcome of the election? Because the postal workers' union here in the USA just endorsed Joe Biden. That pretty much taints the whole deal for me.
     
  19. Deleted User

    Deleted User Newbie

    Hmm idk. Maybe it's the fact Joe wants to put funding back into the post office after republicans kneecapped their job twice in a row? once in 2006, and now recently?
    And I would be concerned about that, especially from the president who put a pundit there to slow down the post office. Why? Oh well he admitted that he's trying to boost his election chances. It's a statistical fact that most democrats take the pandemic seriously. And will guess what? vote by mail, rather than going to a poll.There is already data showing that difference between the two parties. So effectively by trying to axe the post office, Trump is trying to boost his own election chances.
     
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