(US-Election) So howsabout voting by mail?

[Xzi]

There is no immediate downside to it though, even if they loose, they loose by a smaller amount which favours reps next time around...

So I doubt that this is only Trump...

Assuming there is a coronavirus vaccine available by early 2022, it wouldn't have nearly as big an impact on future elections, but it would still pay dividends where their investments in private USPS competitors are concerned. Only Mitt Romney on the Republican side has spoken out against the sabotage of the USPS, so the vast majority of them have made it clear that they prioritize profits over people.

 

[vincentx77]

Jesus H Christ... If you live in the South, there are plenty of postal workers who are Republicans and pro-Trump, despite the fact that it's probably not in their own best interests. The post office doesn't count the votes. There's no fucking conspiracy to use the USPS to steal the election. Even Republican members of congress are backing away from Trump's insanity on this one. Trump even said about a week ago that mail-in voting was a great thing in Florida because they had a Republican governor who would make sure they did the right thing. Trump is the asshole who is trying to steal the election. He's doing it by damaging our postal system. His doing it by disenfranchising PoC, the elderly, and others for whom voting at a poling station could be dangerous. He is disgusting. What he's doing is disgusting. There's no excuse for the behavior that he's exhibiting.

And for what it's worth, no one is mailing ballots to every citizen. You have to send in an application for a mail-in ballot. I would have opted to do this. I have an auto-immune disease and going to a polling place is risky for me. This election is too important, so I feel like I have no choice but to risk it.

 

[notimp]

Voters may not have their votes counted in time for the November election after the US Postal Service chief warned of delays. Postmaster Louis DeJoy, a Donald Trump ally, has come under scrutiny over his financial ties.

DeJoy's warning comes as the postal service's watchdog steps up efforts to look into how the organization is run.

The US Postal Service Office of Inspector General is investigating reports of service disruptions and other concerns raised by lawmakers, the office of Senator Elizabeth Warren said on Friday.

https://m.dw.com/en/us-postal-servi...ot-be-counted-in-time-for-election/a-54577917

 

[Xzi]

There's no fucking conspiracy to use the USPS to steal the election.

It's not a "conspiracy," no. That would require some level of secrecy and/or subversion. Both Trump and DeJoy have openly admitted to their part in sabotaging USPS' ability to operate efficiently and effectively.

Nobody's suggesting postal workers are going to change your vote. The issue is that they might not be capable of delivering ballots on time, and during a pandemic, that's an issue which can be exploited to suppress the overall voter turnout.

And for what it's worth, no one is mailing ballots to every citizen. You have to send in an application for a mail-in ballot.

A number of states do have universal mail-in/drop-off ballots and have for some time. A number of others have been pushing for it for this election specifically. Frankly it should've been the standard across the country for decades now.

 

[Glyptofane]

What is even the problem when Fauci says there's no reason Americans can't vote in person in November? What happened to "listening to the experts"? Does that only apply when it completely aligns with some lunatic, preconceived Democrat agenda?

You may recall both Fauci and his boss, Bill Gates, saying schools could reopen and there doesn't seem to be much of that going on either.

The entire manufactured crisis stemming from the response has gone completely off the rails from when they originally said the lockdown was just to keep hospitals from being overwhelmed. It became quickly evident that was never going to happen and here we still are months later.

Lastly, USPS has been running itself into the ground for a very long time. That's hardly the fault or responsibility of Trump.

 

[crimpshrine]

If people can go to the store without issue, get gas without issue, get carry out food without issue, and many other activities without issue.

They should easily be able to create an environment that people can vote in person without issue. "Experts" have already said there should be no problem with in person voting.

Some level of election fraud is a factor everywhere in the world.

Discussions usually center around the strengths of the voting equipment. That they are exploitable, that they are weak, etc.. Even then in many places alleged fraud is made at times.

There is already ample evidence of voter fraud from in the past when tied to the use of mail. Over 1000 criminal convictions associated with it.

How many criminal convictions tied to in person voter fraud? I am sure that happens too, but likely mail use is the path of least resistance as far as fraud goes.

Seems like some people are trying to make an issue out of something that really should not be an issue.

 

[UltraSUPRA]

The problem with mail-order ballots is that conservatives want a fair election while liberals are only in it to win it. Ultimately, regardless of the people, governors in liberal states will make sure that all votes are for the white rapist and the cop.

 

[Xzi]

If people can go to the store without issue, get gas without issue, get carry out food without issue, and many other activities without issue.

They should easily be able to create an environment that people can vote in person without issue. "Experts" have already said there should be no problem with in person voting.

It absolutely wouldn't be an issue if every voter could be trusted to wear masks and socially distance as they're required to in all the other scenarios that you listed. Instead we're stuck with a whole lot of chuds and troglodytes who will go to the polls and refuse to do either of these things because, according to them, COVID-19 is either a "hoax," or "no worse than a cold."

Regardless of this election in particular, the idea behind democracy is that you get as many people involved as possible. A party that can only win by means of suppressing voter turnout is a party in favor of oligarchy, not democracy.

There is already ample evidence of voter fraud from in the past when tied to the use of mail. Over 1000 criminal convictions associated with it.

A thousand out of what? Billions of votes cast? Don't just give half of the statistic. We're talking about a hundredth of a percentage point or less. Besides, if they were caught, then that means the safeguards are working properly and there's nothing to worry about. If anything, it's easier to catch fraud via mail-in voting than it is with in-person voting where electronic machines can be hacked without a trace.

 

[UltraSUPRA]

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It's about the context. There's no cure for government mismanagement.

 

[crimpshrine]

It absolutely wouldn't be an issue if every voter could be trusted to wear masks and socially distance as they're required to in all the other scenarios that you listed. Instead we're stuck with a whole lot of chuds and troglodytes who will go to the polls and refuse to do either of these things because, according to them, COVID-19 is either a "hoax," or "no worse than a cold."

Regardless of this election in particular, the idea behind democracy is that you get as many people involved as possible. A party that can only win by means of suppressing voter turnout is a party in favor of oligarchy, not democracy.


A thousand out of what? Billions of votes cast? Don't just give half of the statistic. We're talking about a hundredth of a percentage point or less. Besides, if they were caught, then that means the safeguards are working properly and there's nothing to worry about. If anything, it's easier to catch fraud via mail-in voting than it is with in-person voting where electronic machines can be hacked without a trace.

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I don't know about all other states, but my state has rules regarding masks and social distancing. And outside of the occasional social media post/news report about people that can't handle it and fight (for whichever side you are on), everything works. All stores I enter have a mask required policy. Pretty much EVERY business has adjusted their way of doing business to account for these changes. I have never seen outside what is reported on the Internet with problems with social distancing/mask wearing issues. I would have to guess like most things, what is reported on and publicized is the rarity in the grand scheme of things.

When I say thousands of convictions. I am not only talking about single incidents impacting one vote, but incidents that impacted multiple votes.

And that is just those who they have caught in the past. If you believe there is not a greater risk of fraud here, don't know what to tell you. It is the path of least resistance for creating fraud. When you go to vote where I am, you are verified and you have to present ID. There is a verification process that occurs. And a process has been placed on the polling place so me showing up and following the process creates a high chance that my vote and others that vote will be accounted for without fraud. When you decentralize that, the chance for fraud increases dramatically I believe.

Again I think more is being made of this that needs to be. People are actively doing things outside in stores and all kinds of other activities that are part of "daily" life safely, this is no different in my opinion.

Whatever the method is, there should be as much verification as possible to help prevent fraud to the process.

 

[Xzi]

Whatever the method is, there should be as much verification as possible to help prevent fraud to the process.

In addition to being registered to vote, you have to provide more information when it comes to mail-in/drop-off ballots than you do for in-person voting, not less. The process of verifying a person's eligibility to vote is the same either way. So by default we would agree on that point.

Again, it simply comes down to whether you want to encourage participation in the process by the largest segment of the population possible, or you want to exclude certain groups for the purpose of ensuring that only the voices of the rich and powerful truly count. Not only do most first-world democracies make it easy and convenient to vote by mail, they also made election day a national holiday so that there are a lot fewer barriers to in-person voting.

It's about the context. There's no cure for government mismanagement.

In the sense that this administration has grossly mismanaged the federal response to coronavirus, and is now purposefully mismanaging the USPS, we certainly agree there.

 

[osaka35]

There are so many standards for voting in the states, bereft with errors and easy manipulations. but these are after-the-fact behind-the-scene things. not front-end things like whether you do it in person or mail it in. so it's not like mail-in-voting is going to do anything differently than voting in-person.

Perhaps they're worried this could undermine highly immoral gerrymandering? Or make it easier for people to vote? republicans do have a track record of passing laws which aim to inhibit free elections (with the do-nothing support of democrats), and this would make voting more accessible and free.

 

[Taleweaver]

Wow...I had limited PC support last weekend, but I don't think I've ever seen a mental breakdown this bad...

Have you ever been concerned about corruption within your postal service influencing the outcome of the election? Because the postal workers' union here in the USA just endorsed Joe Biden. That pretty much taints the whole deal for me.

I think you're too easily convinced of what you want to believe. Sorry, but corruption is a reality. The people telling you there isn't any are the most corrupt of all.

There is fixing in every election in both our countries and if you choose to believe them when they tell you they investigated themselves and found no evidence of it, well good for you.

As I explained above there, mail-in voting puts the postal service in the chain of custody of the ballots. So they control the election as much as those who count the votes. And as Stalin wisely observed, it's not who votes but who counts the votes. Now it's not just who counts the votes, but who plays middle man delivering the votes that will be counted.

If any of you have a Trump sign in your yard or bumper sticker on your car (no, I don't, I don't want my house or car vandalized) ... don't mail in your ballot from your own mailbox. Take it to a public mailbox and drop it in there. If the mailman sees you're a Trump supporter, your ballot might not reach its destination.

Man...are you okay? I know we seldomly agree on a political level, but this is worrying. Do I really need to tell you that the same US citizens you've been living with since forever without issue (well...not since the civil war) aren't somehow out to get you? There's probably one or two bad democrats out there who screw things up for the rest of 'em (just

Look: I'm very willing to admit that there's a potential fraud chance by the mailmen. But for all your posts, you have always dodged the question on "how" or "why". A union endorsing a candidate doesn't mean he gets a free pass somehow, if not for any reason that they don't control the workers (as mentioned, plenty of workers just support Trump).

You're also ignoring the fact that Trump shot first. Since he openly admitted sabotaging the mail funding for HIS idea that usps MIGHT fraud, I'd argue he brought on the endorsement himself (what do you expect? Them being happy of being attacked without provocation? ).
Oh, and of course the elephant in the room: Louis DeJoy has at least as many opportunities, and probably more, to sabotage the mail. And as the postmaster's CEO he was never politically neutral to begin with. Worse: on top of a top Trump contributor, he also has shares in the competition. Meaning: he has more to gain with the USPS' downfall than by actually leading it. So I don't get why you don't search for conspiracy theories on that front...or is that too much in the open for you?

What is even the problem when Fauci says there's no reason Americans can't vote in person in November? What happened to "listening to the experts"? Does that only apply when it completely aligns with some lunatic, preconceived Democrat agenda?

I googled where he said that and found two links.
Fauci defends voting by mail if you don't want to take the chance in person
Dr Anthony Fauci insists there is 'no reason Americans shouldn't be able to vote in person' in November after Trump said mail-in voting would create chaos
The interesting part is that they both come from the exact same interview. So this isn't a matter of discrediting Fauci, but of context. He isn't talking about banning voting in person, which is what NOBODY HERE IS DISCUSSING. But you make it out like he's perfectly okay with voting in person, whereas he really is at least as much okay as voting by mail.

The entire manufactured crisis stemming from the response has gone completely off the rails from when they originally said the lockdown was just to keep hospitals from being overwhelmed. It became quickly evident that was never going to happen and here we still are months later.

Erm...the lockdown should be to prevent the virus from spreading, thus reducing the amounts of seriously ill. I'm not sure if you're uninformed or if that's how the government laid it out to you. Hospitals getting overwhelmed was (at least in Belgium) a doom scenario where, if breached, would lead to far worse situations than we've had. Luckily, we've recovered (our second wave now seems to stabilize around 1/3rd of the first one, which was also - albeit not as comfortable as should have been - within limits of the hospitals). You didn't. But when you say that US hospitals aren't at all in danger of being overwhelmed, you're just uninformed.

Lastly, USPS has been running itself into the ground for a very long time. That's hardly the fault or responsibility of Trump.

I'll take your word for the first sentence. And Trump - agreed - isn't responsible for covid-19 reducing postal packages(1). But I'll remind you that the job of the president isn't whatever he wants it to be. The state of the US national postal service was, and still is, the president's responsibility.


(1): sure, people buy more stuff online. But the large chunk of US postal service was in businesses, so the net result is still a loss.

 

[notimp]

Have you ever been concerned about corruption within your postal service influencing the outcome of the election? Because the postal workers' union here in the USA just endorsed Joe Biden. That pretty much taints the whole deal for me.

This one is easy to clear up.

Its the postal workers UNION. *duh*

So how do you prevent them doing 'something'? Well, you have them work together with other workers who arent union (check), you make them transport ballots in unmarked envelopes (check), that become void when you open them (check), and you scare the living bejebus out of them that they are out of a job if they are ever caught... (check). How do you ensure thats enforced? Idk, you assign them randomly, but if possible have them take the same routes for years (partly check), so they develop a sense of community, you create an independant agency (check), thats preoccupied with being the best at their type of bureaucracy (check on checklists ) - and it turns out that you can have per mail voting. Oh and you have an independent watchdog organization that looks into assertions of problematic behavior (also check).

(If it werent for the 'vote solicitation issue' (thats why you never can have the default be 'vote at some place', majority always has to vote in private in a public place (you basically have to make sure it remains a public ritual), or you'd get a culture change (bosses expecting to have a say in their employees votes...)).)

(Many eyes looking at this to ensure impartiality where it matters. This is the individual postman, this is the guy at the sorting plant, this is the whistleblower that tells media, that if dems dont put forward funding, people would have a few sorting machines less come voting season.)

But furthermore, US is not a direct democracy by a long shot (one person one vote), so turns out, in the end the entire voting process is almost always more about framing the narrative. Meaning "how do you tell a story that makes you 'the winner' with more people agreeing than revolting (actually it only needs a critical mass at the revolting stage.. ) - you do that by changing the narrative of what 'mail voting means'.

This year apparently its dangerous, because, evil forces.
(Russians on facebook, spending 300k on political ads.. )

Can you bring a statistical argument for why? Trump is criticized, that he cant.

Finish your own picture from there. Preferably one thats not afraid of the evil individual postman opening up envelopes, and presorting.

 

[Hanafuda]

Man...are you okay?

Mail-in voting was a disaster in the primaries in states that tried it*, will be a disaster in the general election if tried again. I'm not talking about absentee voting where a specific voter requests a single ballot to their registered address. I'm talking about universally mailing ballots to all registered persons on the voter rolls. That will result in a catastrophic clusterfuck. Maybe that's the actual Democrat goal here though ... a messed up election, unreliable tally, errors upon errors. Because

https://www.npr.org/2020/07/13/8897...nds-of-mail-in-ballots-rejected-for-tardiness

https://www.theatlantic.com/politic...-york-election-failure-mail-in-voting/614446/

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-19-vote-by-mail-ballot-counted-election/

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/...ginia/65-94c4847c-63fb-4a93-bac5-9bb45df00a8d



Also, there's this to consider (there are pages and pages of results like this, but hey trust them!). As I saw someone else on twitter say a couple days ago, if you don't trust the postal service enough to send cash in the mail, why would you trust them with your vote??

https://postalnews.com/blog/2019/07...me-that-stole-nearly-240000-from-usps-trucks/

https://www.postal-reporter.com/blo...firearms-and-scopes-for-rifles-from-the-mail/

https://denver.cbslocal.com/2019/08/29/postal-worker-stealing-mail-englewood/

https://abcnews.go.com/US/postal-worker-pleads-guilty-stealing-money-6000-greeting/story?id=57909445

https://www.fox5atlanta.com/news/au...gainst-postal-worker-accusing-her-of-stealing

https://www.wfmj.com/story/41284510...early-five-years-for-stealing-1500-gift-cards

https://patch.com/maryland/silverspring/postal-worker-charged-stealing-pricey-coins-mail-police

https://www.justice.gov/usao-ma/pr/postal-worker-charged-stealing-packages-containing-narcotics

 

[UltraSUPRA]

you scare the living bejebus out of them that they are out of a job if they are ever caught...

If.

It's a natural instinct to want to get away with doing stuff. Plus, liberals have a history of underhanded tactics (Jeffery Epstein comes to mind). They'd probably pay everyone there to throw away all Trump votes, and secure them another job if they get caught.

 

[notimp]

If.

Yes, but on the other hand - jobloss.

So if ever John at work comes to you to talk to you about his plan to do this thing - you tell someone higher up that you think will not be sympatico to Johns plans, what Johns plans are, and you will be promoted. While John gets fired.

Bureaucracy it will alway do whats in the book (if book isnt rewritten at a higher level. ).

Individual risk for John should be too high. Even to 'form a conspiracy'.

And even if they do form a conspiracy, see Chigaco Police Department example. Higher up section will swipe in and replace the entire headoffice, to set up 'rule by the book' again. Thats how thats meant to work.

 

[UltraSUPRA]

Yes, but on the other hand - jobloss.

Plus, liberals have a history of underhanded tactics (Jeffery Epstein comes to mind). They'd probably pay everyone there to throw away all Trump votes, and secure them another job if they get caught.

 

[notimp]

Plus, liberals have a history of underhanded tactics

Circumstantial. Vague.

Not a reason to all of a sudden believe, that the postal service stopped working as an agency (corruption from the bottom up).

The entire thing is structured, so that doesnt happen. (Private mail delivery firms may count more on surveilance (packet and driver tracking), I guess, which also works... But is more single point of failure than an agency.)

 

[Hanafuda]

Not a reason to all of a sudden believe, that the postal service stopped working as an agency (corruption from the bottom up).

USPS controllable costs almost doubled from 2018 to 2019, from $1,9 billion to $3.4 billion. One year. They're a self-sabotaging entity. And their answer to all the union-leveraged liabilities and bloat is always "more money, please."

https://www.insidesources.com/time-to-admit-it-the-postal-service-has-a-union-problem/