This might get me to buy an EV

[mrdude]

I saw a pretty ingenious hydrogen refuelling station that simply had a roof covered in solar panels. During the day the tanks refilled with hydrogen through electrolysis of water, with the waste product being oxygen. No built-in battery required - all the energy from the panel just gets dumped into water straight away. The problem is that such stations could only operate in areas where cloud coverage isn’t an issue - they’d never be efficient enough for where I live. That being said, for all intents and purposes you could install one on your own property, with as many panels as you like. Right now, for someone like me, a hybrid is much more convenient and reliable. My missus and I don’t have to worry about running out of juice in the middle of a drive, the petrol engine simply kicks in and the battery gets topped up via regenerative braking and whenever we’re just cruising. Most of the area is 20 MPH speed limited anyway, so the electric motor gets as much use if not more than the petrol engine.

Why not have an electrical feed to it as well as the solar, & extra storage tanks for the excess that gets produced, then you could make they hydrogen all the time no matter what the weather. It's not rocket science to do that and everywhere has electric, you don't need a high amp feed to to make hydrogen - the most abundant and unlimited chemical in the universe.

Actually it's pretty easy to make hydrogen, and you can easliy make it like this:
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained...n, it must,(splitting water with electricity).

 

[Foxi4]

Why not have an electrical feed to it as well as the solar, & extra storage tanks for the excess that gets produced, then you could make they hydrogen all the time no matter what the weather. It's not rocket science to do that and everywhere has electric, you don't need a high amp feed to to make hydrogen - the most abundant and unlimited chemical in the universe.

Actually it's pretty easy to make hydrogen, and you can easliy make it like this:
https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/hydrogen/production-of-hydrogen.php#:~:text=To produce hydrogen, it must,(splitting water with electricity).

Of course it’s easy to make hydrogen, that’s not the point. The point is that in the macro scale and over a longer period of time the idea is to retire coal-based electricity generation altogether. Moreover, the station above can function literally in the middle of nowhere, hooked up to nothing besides water supply, and even lack of water supply can be remedied with a large enough tank. The United States are a huge country, there are long stretches of absolutely nothingness scattered all around the place. Think Route 66 or Route 50. Those are hundreds, thousands of miles of road with barely anything between point A and point B. If the infrastructure is supposed to work, you must account for those types of scenarios. You need stations that can operate off the grid with minimal maintenance, and there’s nothing more abundant than solar energy in the middle of a desert.

 

[mrdude]

Of course it’s easy to make hydrogen, that’s not the point. The point is that in the macro scale and over a longer period of time the idea is to retire coal-based electricity generation altogether. Moreover, the station above can function literally in the middle of nowhere, hooked up to nothing besides water supply, and even lack of water supply can be remedied with a large enough tank. The United States are a huge country, there are long stretches of absolutely nothingness scattered all around the place. Think Route 66 or Route 50. Those are hundreds, thousands of miles of road with barely anything between point A and point B. If the infrastructure is supposed to work, you must account for those types of scenarios. You need stations that can operate off the grid with minimal maintenance, and there’s nothing more abundant than solar energy in the middle of a desert.

You have gas stations in USA already in those remote places, all you need to do is replace the storage tanks the gas is stored in and replace them with liquified hydrogen - which can be transported in the same way that gas is. As for power stations, you now get small modular fission reactors that can be installed underground (as long as you have cooling for them), Also fusion reactors are nearly a reality, and don't produce radioactive waste, so these will be used in the future as well - so they will phase out the coal based ones. As for solar, it takes up huge amounts of land and isn't great as far as recycling is concerned, however in the middle of a desert it would be OK, but somebody will need to clean the dust from the panels - bugger that for a job.

Did you know that the uyghur's in china are being used as slaves to produce your solar panels?

Here's some abandoned solar farms - the companies went bankrupt and abandoned the waste for someone else to clean up and for to pay to clean up. Those companies took the money and ran.

Also USA has mental tornadoes, hurricaines, dust storms - even in the desert, it's only a matter of time until a storm would turn one of these solar farms into what you see above.

The reality of kids mining for Cobalt for your "green" EV's:

Also I recommend you read some of the stuff on here so you can see how a lot of the eco crap is really having a negative impact on humanity and development.

https://stopthesethings.com/

 

[Foxi4]

You have gas stations in USA already in those remote places, all you need to do is replace the storage tanks the gas is stored in and replace them with liquified hydrogen - which can be transported in the same way that gas is. As for power stations, you now get small modular fission reactors that can be installed underground (as long as you have cooling for them), Also fusion reactors are nearly a reality, and don't produce radioactive waste, so these will be used in the future as well - so they will phase out the coal based ones. As for solar, it takes up huge amounts of land and isn't great as far as recycling is concerned, however in the middle of a desert it would be OK, but somebody will need to clean the dust from the panels - bugger that for a job.

Did you know that the uyghur's in china are being used as slaves to produce your solar panels?

Here's some abandoned solar farms - the companies went bankrupt and abandoned the waste for someone else to clean up and for to pay to clean up. Those companies took the money and ran.

Also USA has mental tornadoes, hurricaines, dust storms - even in the desert, it's only a matter of time until a storm would turn one of these solar farms into what you see above.

The reality of kids mining for Cobalt for your "green" EV's:

Also I recommend you read some of the stuff on here so you can see how a lot of the eco crap is really having a negative impact on humanity and development.

https://stopthesethings.com/

Transporting liquid fuel is a waste of energy compared to producing it on the spot. Hydrogen creates a unique opportunity in the sense that it could allow us to eliminate the need to transport fuel altogether, with the right infrastructure in place. This in turn reduces road wear and tear, traffic and other associated waste. A tanker full of hydrogen is slightly more dangerous than a tanker full of water too, on the off chance that we would have to transport the base ingredient. The rest is a wall of text full of emotional appeal, I’m not even going to read it, it has nothing to do with the discussion.

 

[mrdude]

Transporting liquid fuel is a waste of energy compared to producing it on the spot. Hydrogen creates a unique opportunity in the sense that it could allow us to eliminate the need to transport fuel altogether, with the right infrastructure in place. This in turn reduces road wear and tear, traffic and other associated waste. A tanker full of hydrogen is slightly more dangerous than a tanker full of water too, on the off chance that we would have to transport the base ingredient. The rest is a wall of text full of emotional appeal, I’m not even going to read it, it has nothing to do with the discussion.

This is not a reality for hundreds of millions/billions of people, I just look at the realistic things that are possible for most people. The fact is most people need to get their fuel from somewhere and can't make it themselves (that includes generating enough of their own electricity to power everything they need).

 

[Foxi4]

This is not a reality for hundreds of millions/billions of people, I just look at the realistic things that are possible for most people. The fact is most people need to get their fuel from somewhere and can't make it themselves (that includes generating enough of their own electricity to power everything they need).

It’s perfectly realistic. I know this because those stations exist and operate just fine. It does not take a lot of electricity to generate hydrogen - it’s literally an experiment that used to be conducted in front of small children during basic chemistry class. You can do it in your garage, right now (though maybe you shouldn’t without the necessary equipment, unless you fancy blowing yourself up). The problem is efficiency - on the low end, without additives, which is what we’re talking about here, it’s 67%. You can use the same amount of energy directly and get *way* more mileage, it’s not even close. The advantage is easy storage - you don’t need a battery of any kind, just a sealed pressure vessel, which will last for as long as the rust or rot goblins don’t sink their teeth into it, unlike a battery. Now, a revolution in battery technology would blow hydrogen out of the water as an unnecessary step, but we’re not quite there yet. Storing that energy in chemical form is adequate until better means are available.

 

[Xzi]

The first electric car was invented in the late 1800s, for anyone wondering just how long capitalists have been stifling innovation. The biggest issue is and always has been a desire to create scarcity, real or artificial, in order to inflate profit margins.

 

[KingVamp]

If we didn't have so many bad faith actors, we could get a government that cares about environment and care about the people that gather and make all the technology we have.

I saw a pretty ingenious hydrogen refuelling station that simply had a roof covered in solar panels. During the day the tanks refilled with hydrogen through electrolysis of water, with the waste product being oxygen. No built-in battery required - all the energy from the panel just gets dumped into water straight away. The problem is that such stations could only operate in areas where cloud coverage isn’t an issue - they’d never be efficient enough for where I live. That being said, for all intents and purposes you could install one on your own property, with as many panels as you like. Right now, for someone like me, a hybrid is much more convenient and reliable. My missus and I don’t have to worry about running out of juice in the middle of a drive, the petrol engine simply kicks in and the battery gets topped up via regenerative braking and whenever we’re just cruising. Most of the area is 20 MPH speed limited anyway, so the electric motor gets as much use if not more than the petrol engine.

Well, that's cool. If hydrogen cars do takeoff maybe electrolysis at home will takeoff too. I wonder how that compares in efficiency and speed to just dumping electricity straight into an EV tho. Already answered lol.

 

[mrdude]

It’s perfectly realistic. I know this because those stations exist and operate just fine. It does not take a lot of electricity to generate hydrogen - it’s literally an experiment that used to be conducted in front of small children during basic chemistry class. You can do it in your garage, right now (though maybe you shouldn’t without the necessary equipment, unless you fancy blowing yourself up). The problem is efficiency - on the low end, without additives, which is what we’re talking about here, it’s 67%. You can use the same amount of energy directly and get *way* more mileage, it’s not even close. The advantage is easy storage - you don’t need a battery of any kind, just a sealed pressure vessel, which will last for as long as the rust or rot goblins don’t sink their teeth into it, unlike a battery. Now, a revolution in battery technology would blow hydrogen out of the water as an unnecessary step, but we’re not quite there yet. Storing that energy in chemical form is adequate until better means are available.

Why would you think that battery tech would be better? It's currently crap. Also how do people that don't have offroad parking charge their cars? (hom much of their time do they need to waste). Then there's the power grid which needs updated, then there's the amount of extra power stations that need built etc. I could go on and on but most has already been covered if you care to read back. Currently EV's are shit, take ages to charge, offer low range per charge, are expensive to charge at commercial charging points, add lot's of time to long journeys, are mostly powered by electricity that's made by non renewable sources, are expensive, there's not enough rare earth minerals to replace every car, children used to in basic slave labour to get the chemicals to make them. China hold most of the rights for those menerals that are required for EV's................etc, etc, etc.

 

[Psionic Roshambo]

Why would you think that battery tech would be better? It's currently crap. Also how do people that don't have offroad parking charge their cars? (hom much of their time do they need to waste). Then there's the power grid which needs updated, then there's the amount of extra power stations that need built etc. I could go on and on but most has already been covered if you care to read back. Currently EV's are shit, take ages to charge, offer low range per charge, are expensive to charge at commercial charging points, add lot's of time to long journeys, are mostly powered by electricity that's made by non renewable sources, are expensive, there's not enough rare earth minerals to replace every car, children used to in basic slave labour to get the chemicals to make them. China hold most of the rights for those menerals that are required for EV's................etc, etc, etc.

Another thought, how much is all this electricity running through thousands of miles of wire going to contribute to the thing they are trying to prevent? Global warming. By that I mean we don't have room temp super conducting wires yes. All that juice is gonna put out some crazy heat.

 

[mrdude]

Another thought, how much is all this electricity running through thousands of miles of wire going to contribute to the thing they are trying to prevent? Global warming. By that I mean we don't have room temp super conducting wires yes. All that juice is gonna put out some crazy heat.

Global warming is a farce. This planet has had at least 5 ice ages, there's been times when the planet has also been warm and the gases in the Atmposphere has been totally different than is is today. We've had 5 mass extinctions. The facts are that lots of things affect the weather such as the earths magnetic field, the ionsphere, activity on the sun such as the suns weather and sunspots, gravitation pull from other planets orbits and a whole bunch of other things - so no need to blame humans. You need to look at weather patterns in geological tme - not just cherry picked years to make your agenda look good. As for the heat generated from electricity - well you do get loses in wires due to friction, see here for more info:

https://www.elandcables.com/the-cab...rried over,dissipated to the surrounding area.

We will always use electricity and need wires so it's pointless to worry about that, but battery based cars are not the future for transport, the more companies keep losing more to this madness the sooner they will bin the idea and get back to what makes them profitable.

 

[Xzi]

Another thought, how much is all this electricity running through thousands of miles of wire going to contribute to the thing they are trying to prevent? Global warming. By that I mean we don't have room temp super conducting wires yes. All that juice is gonna put out some crazy heat.

The answer is much less than than burning oil and gas contributes to climate change. Not to mention that electricity generated by green sources is already a fair bit cheaper than coal and/or oil generated electricity.

I'd assume MrDude has stock in big oil, if he hadn't already repeatedly proven himself susceptible to the most shameless and blatant corporate propaganda. At this rate he'll soon be singing the praises of reverse mortgages.

 

[Foxi4]

Why would you think that battery tech would be better? It's currently crap. Also how do people that don't have offroad parking charge their cars? (hom much of their time do they need to waste). Then there's the power grid which needs updated, then there's the amount of extra power stations that need built etc. I could go on and on but most has already been covered if you care to read back. Currently EV's are shit, take ages to charge, offer low range per charge, are expensive to charge at commercial charging points, add lot's of time to long journeys, are mostly powered by electricity that's made by non renewable sources, are expensive, there's not enough rare earth minerals to replace every car, children used to in basic slave labour to get the chemicals to make them. China hold most of the rights for those menerals that are required for EV's................etc, etc, etc.

“A revolution in battery technology would…”
“Currently…”

You are not a serious person.

 

[mrdude]

“A revolution in battery technology would…”
“Currently…”

You are not a serious person.

You can only go on what's currently available though, so yes I am serious and not living in an alternative universe where these non existant batteries that take 2 seconds to charge for free via wireless exist.

Sometimes I think you just post on here so you can have someone to argue with. Basically all that's been pointed out is that EV's have a very lot of downsides and there's tech that already exists that don't have any of the same problems.

If EV's were good - loads of people would be rushing out to buy them, but they are not and many that did buy them are regretting their decision and swapping back to petrol/deisel or hybrids for now until something better comes along. The fact that hydrogen engines are now a reality with different companies such as Cummings/Toyota/Ford/Porche designing them and putting them into production kind of proves the point that not everyone is on board with EV's no matter what government agendas and tax payer subsidies are being pushed.

Even the Ford CEO says EV's days are over:

 

[Foxi4]

You can only go on what's currently available though, so yes I am serious and not living in an alternative universe where these non existant batteries that take 2 seconds to charge for free via wireless exist.

Sometimes I think you just post on here so you can have someone to argue with. Basically all that's been pointed out is that EV's have a very lot of downsides and there's tech that already exists that don't have any of the same problems.

If EV's were good - loads of people would be rushing out to buy them, but they are not and many that did buy them are regretting their decision and swapping back to petrol/deisel or hybrids for now until something better comes along. The fact that hydrogen engines are now a reality with different companies such as Cummings/Toyota/Ford/Porche designing them and putting them into production kind of proves the point that not everyone is on board with EV's no matter what government agendas and tax payer subsidies are being pushed.

Even the Ford CEO says EV's days are over:

The opposite is true, you *don’t* plan the future based on technology you know is obsolete when you have promising results based on existing trials. Glass batteries are very much real, I’ve been yammering about them for years, and they’re entering production as we speak. We’re not talking about a magical jet pack, we’re talking about cells that work, right now. Solid state cells will eventually displace liquid and gel electrolyte ones, just like lithium cells displaced other technologies in the past. Lithium deposits are plentiful, it’s the extraction methods that are developing. It’s the 25th most abundant element on Earth - it’s in the crust, it’s in sea water, it’s in brines, it’s all over the place, and we’re not running out. As technology develops, more deposits become more economically viable. If we went by old estimates of lithium reserves, we’d be working with around 14 million tonnes. Do you know how much lithium is actually on the planet? 88 million tonnes. Estimates of how much of it is viable for immediate extraction keep climbing every year, for *obvious* reasons - it’s a desirable commodity. We’re just not extracting it from all sources because it’s readily available by just digging, we don’t have to extract it in any other more expensive way. Everything you’ve said in this thread so far borders on engineering illiteracy - there is *no* pre-existing infrastructure for your precious hydrogen cars either, both EV’s and hydrogen cars are effectively starting from scratch, except in the case of EV’s the power grid actually exists. Don’t get me wrong, hydrogen cars are great (and I explained why), but the way you’re selling the idea is stupid. It just is, I’m sorry. I’m sorry that a car salesman told you to buy his car, I don’t know how to respond to you at this point. Some of your concerns are valid, some of them are silly, all of them are presented poorly.

 

[mrdude]

The opposite is true, you *don’t* plan the future based on technology you know is obsolete when you have promising results based on existing trials. Glass batteries are very much real, I’ve been yammering about them for years, and they’re entering production as we speak. We’re not talking about a magical jet pack, we’re talking about cells that work, right now. Solid state cells will eventually displace liquid and gel electrolyte ones, just like lithium cells displaced other technologies in the past. Lithium deposits are plentiful, it’s the extraction methods that are developing. It’s the 25th most abundant element on Earth - it’s in the crust, it’s in sea water, it’s in brines, it’s all over the place, and we’re not running out. As technology develops, more deposits become more economically viable. If we went by old estimates of lithium reserves, we’d be working with around 14 million tonnes. Do you know how much lithium is actually on the planet? 88 million tonnes. Estimates of how much of it is viable for immediate extraction keep climbing every year, for *obvious* reasons - it’s a desirable commodity. We’re just not extracting it from all sources because it’s readily available by just digging, we don’t have to extract it in any other more expensive way. Everything you’ve said in this thread so far borders on engineering illiteracy - there is *no* pre-existing infrastructure for your precious hydrogen cars either, both EV’s and hydrogen cars are effectively starting from scratch, except in the case of EV’s the power grid actually exists. Don’t get me wrong, hydrogen cars are great (and I explained why), but the way you’re selling the idea is stupid. It just is, I’m sorry. I’m sorry that a car salesman told you to buy his car, I don’t know how to respond to you at this point. Some of your concerns are valid, some of them are silly, all of them are presented poorly.

I've read some crap in my time, this is another bit of it. Let's face facts here - these glass batteries look OK in a power point presentation, facts are if they worked and were any good - they'd be in every smartphone, tablet, computer, power tools already. The fact that they are not tells you a lot. As for hydrogen cell vehicles starting from scratch, shows you know nothing about them, they use most of the tech that is in current vehicles and don't need huge changes to the infrastucture. If you are going to post, please do some research as it's obvious you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

[Foxi4]

I've read some crap in my time, this is another bit of it. Let's face facts here - these glass batteries look OK in a power point presentation, facts are if they worked and were any good - they'd be in every smartphone, tablet, computer, power tools already. The fact that they are not tells you a lot. As for hydrogen cell vehicles starting from scratch, shows you know nothing about them, they use most of the tech that is in current vehicles and don't need huge changes to the infrastucture. If you are going to post, please do some research as it's obvious you have no idea what you are talking about.

“They look good in a PowerPoint presentation” - that’s a verbatim quote of Elon Musk, who has a vested interest in his battery technology staying relevant in this market because replacing battery packs is big business. I know this because I saw him say it. I’m going to skip the rest of the post because I know for a fact it’s not your own thoughts on the subject.

 

[Dark_Ansem]

“They look good in a PowerPoint presentation” - that’s a verbatim quote of Elon Musk, who has a vested interest in his battery technology to stay relevant in this market because replacing battery packs is big business. I know this because I saw him say it. I’m going to skip the rest of the post because I know for a fact it’s not your own thoughts on the subject.

Please stop being so agreeable, it's scaring me.

 

[mrdude]

“They look good in a PowerPoint presentation” - that’s a verbatim quote of Elon Musk, who has a vested interest in his battery technology to stay relevant in this market because replacing battery packs is big business. I know this because I saw him say it. I’m going to skip the rest of the post because I know for a fact it’s not your own thoughts on the subject.

Ahh two people with the same opinion - that's never happened before. Also you did read the last bit of my post but you have no comeback, hence you're too scared to reply to prevent yourself from looking even more silly.

 

[supermist]

Ahh two people with the same opinion - that's never happened before. Also you did read the last bit of my post but you have no comeback, hence you're too scared to reply to prevent yourself from looking even more silly.

No one takes you seriously.